Latest Coronavirus - Yikes

#92,727
#92,727
Ttucke11 said:
There's a 0% chance they paused that vaccine with only 6 out of 6 million having issues. More to the story. Probably will never receive a straight answer without "misinformation" and "fact checking" slapped all over it.
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Absolutely more to it. That’s probably no higher rate than the typical population
 
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#92,729
#92,729
OHvol40 said:
It’s not an opinion that this country has an aging population, an aging workforce, growth in the healthcare sector, prolonged life expectancy, nurse burnout (leaving the profession)... all of that is fact.
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That's true with many industries and not specific to nursing but that existing should incentivize expansion. I guess I'll spoon feed this to you.. If those are your reasons, then nursing is just SOL because you can't change any of that without looking at the schools for help which puts the blame on them. Tough pickle you're in.

Also, your characterization of schools being at fault isn’t well thought out either. Schools have limited budgets as well as limited staff to train nurses, they can’t crank out unlimited amounts of nurses.
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Theres a demand and schools have more than enough money to expand. Especially if they continue to expand their social arts departments. Perhaps the issue is with the money management not being toward feasible and valuable degrees. The issue of people to teach can be remedied if attempted just like with any other degree by simple application of supply and demand.

Your stance also suggests lowering the standards for admittance to nursing school as well as lowered standards for passing the courses, bad idea. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather have no nurse than a poorly trained one in charge of my care.

There, elaborated (spoon fed) for you.
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Erroneous. Never suggested that nor does my stance come close to implying it. They aren't only passing on unqualified applicants (I think we can agree on not lowering standards).

Teacher shortages are due to **** pay and lack of want to by the population. Nurse shortage is on the education system.

One more point on this, from experience, sorta. This was only ten years ago, most of the nursing students that got accepted took their hard courses at the nearby community College because it was easier to get an A. The ones that didn't know that and took the course at the four year might have a point or two lower GPA(meaning in the 0.1 realm) and wouldn't get in. Talk about lowering standards

BTW, I've had this conversation with several friends who are current nurses and they share this opinion. They also have an opinion on the job not being incredibly desirable but I'll table that.
 
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#92,730
#92,730
utvols88 said:
That's true with many industries and not specific to nursing but that existing should incentivize expansion. I guess I'll spoon feed this to you.. If those are your reasons, then nursing is just SOL because you can't change any of that without looking at the schools for help which puts the blame on them. Tough pickle you're in.


Theres a demand and schools have more than enough money to expand. Especially if they continue to expand their social arts departments. Perhaps the issue is with the money management not being toward feasible and valuable degrees. The issue of people to teach can be remedied if attempted just like with any other degree by simple application of supply and demand.


Erroneous. Never suggested that nor does my stance come close to implying it. They aren't only passing on unqualified applicants (I think we can agree on not lowering standards).

Teacher shortages are due to **** pay and lack of want to by the population. Nurse shortage is on the education system.

One more point on this from experience, sorta. This was only ten years ago, most of the nursing students that got accepted took their hard courses at the nearby community College because it was easier to get an A. The ones that didn't know that and took the course at the four year might have a point or two lower GPA and wouldn't get in. Talk about lowering standards

BTW, I've had this conversation with several friends who are current nurses and they share this opinion. They also have an opinion on the job not being incredibly desirable but I'll table that.
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There aren’t many industries today that have expanding staffing demands like healthcare does, and the aging population affects healthcare much more than it does for most other industries as well (hopefully the reasons are obvious). This is something that has been inevitable for decades and has to do more with our population pyramid than it does with lack of effort on anybody’s part.

Shortages in qualified nursing instructors can be attributed somewhat to pay, as you mentioned. There isn’t much financial incentive these days to get your doctorate in nursing for the purpose of teaching. Most nurses that advance that far in their education are advanced practitioners (CRNA, CRNP, DNP Midwifes, etc). Also, another limiting factor, there are a finite number of teaching institutions/clinical sites for nurses to train at. Most teaching facilities are overwhelmed with student nurses and other healthcare students, to the point that the nursing student’s clinical experience is severely limited once they enter the workforce. This also has the consequence of longer training periods for new nurses.

Your attempt to place sole blame on the schools for a complex problem is either narrow-minded or agenda-driven.
 
#92,731
#92,731
OHvol40 said:
There aren’t many industries today that have expanding staffing demands like healthcare does, and the aging population affects healthcare much more than it does for most other industries as well (hopefully the reasons are obvious). This is something that has been inevitable for decades and has to do more with our population pyramid than it does with lack of effort on anybody’s part.

Shortages in qualified nursing instructors can be attributed somewhat to pay, as you mentioned. There isn’t much financial incentive these days to get your doctorate in nursing for the purpose of teaching. Most nurses that advance that far in their education are advanced practitioners (CRNA, CRNP, DNP Midwifes, etc). Also, another limiting factor, there are a finite number of teaching institutions/clinical sites for nurses to train at. Most teaching facilities are overwhelmed with student nurses and other healthcare students, to the point that the nursing student’s clinical experience is severely limited once they enter the workforce. This also has the consequence of longer training periods for new nurses.

Your attempt to place sole blame on the schools for a complex problem is either narrow-minded or agenda-driven.
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You just called it inevitable for decades. They've had decades to adjust and haven't. If this was a flow chart, we keep ending up at the schools. Lol

There aren't limited institutions. Every major four year school in Florida has a nursing program. Accepted applicants are just limited and they are saying no to qualified applicants.

When you speak on sites, are you referring to shadowing/lab type experiences in the field? That can be remedied in the same fashion doctors train, as a shadow. I'd like to see it fixed. That's my agenda.
 
#92,732
#92,732
OHvol40 said:
It’s not an opinion that this country has an aging population, an aging workforce, growth in the healthcare sector, prolonged life expectancy, nurse burnout (leaving the profession)... all of that is fact. Also, your characterization of schools being at fault isn’t well thought out either. Schools have limited budgets as well as limited staff to train nurses, they can’t crank out unlimited amounts of nurses. Your stance also suggests lowering the standards for admittance to nursing school as well as lowered standards for passing the courses, bad idea. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather have no nurse than a poorly trained one in charge of my care.

There, elaborated (spoon fed) for you.
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Is anyone here suggesting lowering the standards for admission? I haven't noticed that
 
#92,735
#92,735
utvols88 said:
You just called it inevitable for decades. They've had decades to adjust and haven't. If this was a flow chart, we keep ending up at the schools. Lol

There aren't limited institutions. Every major four year school in Florida has a nursing program. Accepted applicants are just limited and they are saying no to qualified applicants.

When you speak on sites, are you referring to shadowing/lab type experiences in the field? That can be remedied in the same fashion doctors train, as a shadow. I'd like to see it fixed. That's my agenda.
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Yes, sites, as in hospitals/facilities. Nurses do “shadow” other nurses, that’s a primary part of their training. Not every facility is a teaching facility (accepts student nurses). The availability of training on-site is certainly a limiting factor in the amount of nursing students that can be trained. Typically a nursing student will get clinical training 2-3 years at a hospital.

So if you consider a moderate sized city, maybe they have 5-7 nursing schools locally and 2-4 hospitals with critical care units needed for good student nurse experience. The schools have an average nursing school enrollment of, say, 250 (that’s conservative I think as my nursing school enrollment was around 500 when I graduated). The hospitals might average 250 beds per hospital. So that’s 1250-1750 nursing students who require a lot of time in the hospital to be trained in a community that offers 500-1000 beds, and that’s assuming all the hospitals offer themselves to be used as training centers. You can see the bottleneck. Schools can’t create local hospitals.

So then your options become traveling much greater distances to tertiary hospitals to get training or deprive the nurses of on-site clinical experience.
 
#92,736
#92,736
utvols88 said:
No. This topic seems to chap his butt so he tries to attack made up arguments. 🤷‍♂️
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That method of discussion is one of my pet peeves and it's the lowest common denominator on the internet. I've left sites before because such behavior is so prevalent. If you can't defend your stance you make up a false narrative. "Strawman"
 
#92,737
#92,737
Sea Ray said:
Is anyone here suggesting lowering the standards for admission? I haven't noticed that
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He said “The shortage of nurses is solely on the shoulders of nursing programs at universities that accept minimal applicants.”

Nursing schools generally accept the maximum amount of students that their school can manage that meet the standards for acceptance. If the solution is to expand the school’s capacity then, inevitably, at some point, there won’t be enough qualified applicants to fill the seats. Therefore, lowering the standards is the only way to fill those available seats.

Nursing school enrollment is already expanding, and took another big leap this year since the start of the pandemic.

Then, as we already discussed, there aren’t enough faculty to facilitate that expansion. There’s a shortage of nursing faculty at schools as it is.
 
#92,740
#92,740
OHvol40 said:
He said “The shortage of nurses is solely on the shoulders of nursing programs at universities that accept minimal applicants.”

Nursing schools generally accept the maximum amount of students that their school can manage that meet the standards for acceptance. If the solution is to expand the school’s capacity then, inevitably, at some point, there won’t be enough qualified applicants to fill the seats. Therefore, lowering the standards is the only way to fill those available seats.

Nursing school enrollment is already expanding, and took another big leap this year since the start of the pandemic.

Then, as we already discussed, there aren’t enough faculty to facilitate that expansion. There’s a shortage of nursing faculty at schools as it is.
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You're neglecting another possibility: There are a lot of highly qualified applicants that can't get in because there aren't enough slots available
 
#92,741
#92,741
OHvol40 said:
Yes, sites, as in hospitals/facilities. Nurses do “shadow” other nurses, that’s a primary part of their training. Not every facility is a teaching facility (accepts student nurses). The availability of training on-site is certainly a limiting factor in the amount of nursing students that can be trained. Typically a nursing student will get clinical training 2-3 years at a hospital.

So if you consider a moderate sized city, maybe they have 5-7 nursing schools locally and 2-4 hospitals with critical care units needed for good student nurse experience. The schools have an average nursing school enrollment of, say, 250 (that’s conservative I think as my nursing school enrollment was around 500 when I graduated). The hospitals might average 250 beds per hospital. So that’s 1250-1750 nursing students who require a lot of time in the hospital to be trained in a community that offers 500-1000 beds, and that’s assuming all the hospitals offer themselves to be used as training centers. You can see the bottleneck. Schools can’t create local hospitals.

So then your options become traveling much greater distances to tertiary hospitals to get training or deprive the nurses of on-site clinical experience.
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Not all students are shadowing from the get go and shouldn't, just like med school where clinical is generally year 3 and 4.

Qualified applicants are now not going into nursing and the industry is losing them so what do YOU propose to fix the shortage.
 
#92,743
#92,743
Sports teams should arrange for vaccines to be offered to their entire organizations. Then they should proceed normally. Those that opt not to get them can be assumed to also be opting to accept the risk. In other words, after offering them vaccines, "shut up and get back to work."
 
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#92,749
#92,749
Sea Ray said:
You're neglecting another possibility: There are a lot of highly qualified applicants that can't get in because there aren't enough slots available
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I know there aren’t a lot of highly qualified applicants waiting in line, not here at least.
 
#92,750
#92,750
utvols88 said:
Not all students are shadowing from the get go and shouldn't, just like med school where clinical is generally year 3 and 4.

Qualified applicants are now not going into nursing and the industry is losing them so what do YOU propose to fix the shortage.
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Like I said, there is a bottleneck with faculty and clinical facilities. If we want to fix the problem, we’ll likely have to have the university-affiliated healthcare systems invest considerably to incentivize nursing faculty and students. Seeing as how they’re generally not run with long term plans in mind (unless those plans include a healthy profit) then I don’t see it happening. Most are in consummate cost control mode and what’s best for the patients is a secondary factor.

This phenomenon isn’t all the fault of the organizations, things like running on bare bones and pushing patients out the door is encouraged by the payers (insurance and Medicare).
 
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