To Protect and to Serve II

#12,052
#12,052
Rasputin_Vol said:


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Both of those officers need to be fired and held personally responsible for punative damages. The second officer deserves jail time. Any other officer who assisted with illegal activities should be fired or suspended based on their involvement. Unacceptable, this is what most repo people I know carry.
 
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#12,054
#12,054
KB5252 said:
Remove the word cops and the statement holds true for virtually any private group on Facebook. If I didn't know better I would assume you were simply pointing out police are reflection of society in general.
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Not arguing against your point in the least, but the problem with this idea is that common sense would tell anyone that the officers engaging in these activities is not what you want to see from people sworn to enforce the law.

Even considering the human element, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect LEOs to not engage in that behavior. It's just not good no matter how you cut it.

Kinda ties in with the overarching theme of this thread; reasonable people aren't upset about instances of LEO properly doing their jobs - much in the same way there's a difference in attention between civilian and LEO Facebook groups. No one expects the general FB masses to show dignity and competence.
 
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#12,055
#12,055
Chris4Vols22 said:
Not arguing against your point in the least, but the problem with this idea is that common sense would tell anyone that the officers engaging in these activities is not what you want to see from people sworn to enforce the law.

Even considering the human element, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect LEOs to not engage in that behavior. It's just not good no matter how you cut it.

Kinda ties in with the overarching theme of this thread; reasonable people aren't upset about instances of LEO properly doing their jobs - much in the same way there's a difference in attention between civilian and LEO Facebook groups. No one expects the general FB masses to show dignity and competence.
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I agree we want to hold them to a somewhat higher standard. My point was that when the average person engages in this type stuff it is more of a societal issue. Especially considering the long hours, stress, pay and understaffing issues are to be expected.

I think there is something to the idea that changes in how we think of policing need to happen. I disagree with the way we are approaching it. Police aren't the issue by and large, society is, at least IMO.
 
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#12,056
#12,056
KB5252 said:
I agree we want to hold them to a somewhat higher standard. My point was that when the average person engages in this type stuff it is more of a societal issue. Especially considering the long hours, stress, pay and understaffing issues are to be expected.

I think there is something to the idea that changes in how we think of policing need to happen. I disagree with the way we are approaching it. Police aren't the issue by and large, society is, at least IMO.
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Again, not disagreeing with your original point in the least.

I personally think the issue is that too many people don't actually hold police accountable in their minds. Your post here kinda reflects that idea. You recognize there's a problem, but "police aren't the issue."

The truth, in my mind, is in the middle. Society/civilians have problems for sure. There is also a problem with the way many cops are trained, and far too many are incompetent to carry the badge in the first place. I don't think any reasonable and realistic assessment would include any kind of implication of "police aren't the issue."

Can society/civilians be bad and make cops' jobs harder? You bet, no doubt about it. Does that excuse incompetence/mistakes/questionable decisions? I certainly don't think so.

My stance has not changed for quite a few years: there are too many bad cops. I believe the majority of LEO in America are good cops with dignity and competence. I acknowledged that being a cop is not easy. I just don't see any factors that should excuse poor decisions or decline in policing quality. I think cops should be paid more to attract better quality applicants and put some budgetary pressure on departments to uphold quality. Make good cops want to be good cops. Don't excuse bad cops.
 
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#12,057
#12,057
Chris4Vols22 said:
Again, not disagreeing with your original point in the least.

I personally think the issue is that too many people don't actually hold police accountable in their minds. Your post here kinda reflects that idea. You recognize there's a problem, but "police aren't the issue."

The truth, in my mind, is in the middle. Society/civilians have problems for sure. There is also a problem with the way many cops are trained, and far too many are incompetent to carry the badge in the first place. I don't think any reasonable and realistic assessment would include any kind of implication of "police aren't the issue."

Can society/civilians be bad and make cops' jobs harder? You bet, no doubt about it. Does that excuse incompetence/mistakes/questionable decisions? I certainly don't think so.

My stance has not changed for quite a few years: there are too many bad cops. I believe the majority of LEO in America are good cops with dignity and competence. I acknowledged that being a cop is not easy. I just don't see any factors that should excuse poor decisions or decline in policing quality. I think cops should be paid more to attract better quality applicants and put some budgetary pressure on departments to uphold quality. Make good cops want to be good cops. Don't excuse bad cops.
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I don't disagree. I think I may have represented my stance incompletely. I agree bad police are a problem. I just think they reflect the same issues on a larger societal scale. Everyone in entrenching into their own safe zones and demonizing in their minds everyone else. It's a societal issue reflected in any subset of people.
 
#12,058
#12,058
KB5252 said:
I agree we want to hold them to a somewhat higher standard. My point was that when the average person engages in this type stuff it is more of a societal issue. Especially considering the long hours, stress, pay and understaffing issues are to be expected.

I think there is something to the idea that changes in how we think of policing need to happen. I disagree with the way we are approaching it. Police aren't the issue by and large, society is, at least IMO.
Click to expand...
Chris4Vols22 said:
Again, not disagreeing with your original point in the least.

I personally think the issue is that too many people don't actually hold police accountable in their minds. Your post here kinda reflects that idea. You recognize there's a problem, but "police aren't the issue."

The truth, in my mind, is in the middle. Society/civilians have problems for sure. There is also a problem with the way many cops are trained, and far too many are incompetent to carry the badge in the first place. I don't think any reasonable and realistic assessment would include any kind of implication of "police aren't the issue."

Can society/civilians be bad and make cops' jobs harder? You bet, no doubt about it. Does that excuse incompetence/mistakes/questionable decisions? I certainly don't think so.

My stance has not changed for quite a few years: there are too many bad cops. I believe the majority of LEO in America are good cops with dignity and competence. I acknowledged that being a cop is not easy. I just don't see any factors that should excuse poor decisions or decline in policing quality. I think cops should be paid more to attract better quality applicants and put some budgetary pressure on departments to uphold quality. Make good cops want to be good cops. Don't excuse bad cops.
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I think both of you guys have your finger on the problem. I think the people/society has changed and I also think that the police culture doesn't allow for change. I think that civilians call on the police for far too many incidents and I believe the police willingly insert themselves into far too any incidents.
 
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#12,059
#12,059
Rasputin_Vol said:
I think both of you guys have your finger on the problem. I think the people/society has changed and I also think that the police culture doesn't allow for change. I think that civilians call on the police for far too many incidents and I believe the police willingly insert themselves into far too any incidents.
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You left out my favorite police malfeasance, pulling people over for egregious offenses like (these are reasons I was pulled over) like having a burned out license plate bulb, someone was tailgating me, I had to drive nearly a 100 mph to catch up to you, you were speeding and here is an explanation of how the police airplane overhead clocked you doing 72 in a 60 MPH zone, do you know what the speed limit is in downtown?, 10 mph and you were doing nearly 20, that woman said you drove through her yard, had to wait 30 minutes for husband to come home and say, no that's not the car. On and on and on and yeah I used to have a lead foot in my younger days, but so did everyone else.
 
#12,061
#12,061
KB5252 said:
I don't disagree. I think I may have represented my stance incompletely. I agree bad police are a problem. I just think they reflect the same issues on a larger societal scale. Everyone in entrenching into their own safe zones and demonizing in their minds everyone else. It's a societal issue reflected in any subset of people.
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Ah, I see, and I can certainly agree on that as well.

To kinda both of our points, I personally believe that the overall perception and opinion of LEO should be higher than it is in civilian society. In an ideal world, cops should be universally respected and valued. Obviously that is not the case today. There is a similar need (though I argue not nearly as pressing) for society to put its trust and faith behind the badge - just like society needs cops to do their jobs well.

I pretty much got laughed out of the room when I brought up this idea a while back, but I really wish a celebrity/athlete/prominent figure would start a movement to change attitudes about policing, both from a societal and LEO perspective. Like make it a thing to strive to hear each other out and actively search for real solutions to change attitudes and perceptions for the benefit of everyone. I know, borderline hippie delusional, but does anyone have a better idea?
 
#12,062
#12,062
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Without a serious re-evaluation of the criminal code in this country, things are only going to get worse
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Here is the rub. I'm not sure if LEOs want laws to be taken off the books because that would offer less justification for needing as any police. They want ever increasing laws because it provides job security.
 
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#12,064
#12,064
Rasputin_Vol said:
Here is the rub. I'm not sure if LEOs want laws to be taken off the books because that would offer less justification for needing as any police. They want ever increasing laws because it provides job security.
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We actually don’t give 2 hoots about most of it. What we care about is arresting the same person over and over again throughout our careers. The need for police has never been an issue until “society” decided to make the police the nannie and solver of all problems. Wanna see an improvement... open up long term mental facilities and watch a lot of this spree killing/officer involved killing disappear.
 
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#12,066
#12,066
tim said:
We actually don’t give 2 hoots about most of it. What we care about is arresting the same person over and over again throughout our careers. The need for police has never been an issue until “society” decided to make the police the nannie and solver of all problems. Wanna see an improvement... open up long term mental facilities and watch a lot of this spree killing/officer involved killing disappear.
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exactly, people who don't have a clue want to blame "mask laws, war on drugs, traffic violations" etc. but the fact is that gang activity, mentally ill/homeless issues, and drug activity make up probably 95% of the criminal issues police face on the streets these days (With the rise in mental illness over the past 2 generations being the most dangerous outside of gangs)
 
#12,067
#12,067
Rasputin_Vol said:
Here is the rub. I'm not sure if LEOs want laws to be taken off the books because that would offer less justification for needing as any police. They want ever increasing laws because it provides job security.
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I don't disagree that they feel this way, but with time I believe they could and would see the benefit of some changes, like decreased workload, time to decompress between calls etc, which is certainly needed. They have a very stressful job. They see the worst in humanity daily
 
#12,068
#12,068
KB5252 said:
I don't disagree that they feel this way, but with time I believe they could and would see the benefit of some changes, like decreased workload, time to decompress between calls etc, which is certainly needed. They have a very stressful job. They see the worst in humanity daily
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It’s the slowly boiling frog scenario. Older cops remember how it used to be and just got used to the environment as it evolved to what it is now. Before they know it they’re overwhelmed. The war on drugs was extremely effective and in the wheelhouse of LE. At the time gang violence was through the roof and drugs fueled it. The prisons were filled with the violent and the streets were safer. Most violent crimes not deemed a spree killing still, to this day, have a drug nexus. I’m afraid Legalizing drugs would have an unintended consequence as we see how it has driven our mental illness problems. The answer is somewhere out there but I think the hands off approach we’re heading towards is not the correct one.
 
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#12,070
#12,070
tim said:
It’s the slowly boiling frog scenario. Older cops remember how it used to be and just got used to the environment as it evolved to what it is now. Before they know it they’re overwhelmed. The war on drugs was extremely effective and in the wheelhouse of LE. At the time gang violence was through the roof and drugs fueled it. The prisons were filled with the violent and the streets were safer. Most violent crimes not deemed a spree killing still, to this day, have a drug nexus. I’m afraid Legalizing drugs would have an unintended consequence as we see how it has driven our mental illness problems. The answer is somewhere out there but I think the hands off approach we’re heading towards is not the correct one.
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Its like we are going in circles.
 
#12,073
#12,073
utvolpj said:
You have to consider the pov. It was effective in population targeting, revenue collection and increased police budgets.
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The U.S. Murder Rate Is Up But Still Far Below Its 1980 PeakThere was zero “population targeting” unless you label a drug dealer as a race. We simply went after the largest organization we could. Y’all LOVE to espouse the asset seizures, but fail to mention the sharp reduction in violent crime. The goal was to reduce local tax payer burden and ensure that crime does not pay. OCDTF/HIDTA programs were implemented so that local agencies had some skin in the game and benefitted from training and didn’t break the bank ensuring their communities we’re getting the attention they needed. The closest thing to population targeting was in the late 80’s early 90’s (can’t recall) when they reduced thresholds to 50 grams for certain drugs. But they did that for methamphetamine/pseudo also which, then, was a rural mostly white epidemic. It was all fairly new at the time as we got better so did the cartels.
 
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#12,074
#12,074
Whew... another bloodthirsty killer taken off the streets. Thank goodness we have LEOs out here making sure we are safe.

Firearm disguised as Nerf gun seized during search warrant

The Catawba County Sheriff's Office reports multiple agencies conducted a search at a residence on Old Catawba Road on March 17 after investigators had gathered evidence of narcotics possession at the location.

During the search, officials seized a number of items including cocaine, psilocybin mushrooms, marijuana, approximately $2,300 and twenty firearms consisting of pistols, rifles and shotguns.
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So they got a warrant just based on narcotics possession? Interesting... But surely, he was a bloodthirsty killer though, right?

Officials say as a result of the search, Damien Alonzo Burch, 35, of Catawba, was arrested and charged with felonious possession of cocaine, felonious possession of mushrooms and misdemeanor possession of marijuana. The sheriff's office says Burch was issued a $20,000 unsecured bond and had a first appearance in Catawba County District Court on March 18.
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