Everything evolves around making some open shots

#52
#52
bleedingTNorange said:
Once again, play to our averages, and we win and the offense doesn’t look like it did. Also how many point did OM get as a result of our turnovers and fast break? So not only did we shoot poorly from the FT line and turn it over more than normal, that then allowed OM to score more than they were against our defense. So not only would we have won and offensive numbers looked much better, OM would’ve scored quite a bit less and it wouldn’t have even been a close game.

Overall point being, the schematics and style of the offense would’ve been fine had Tennessee not turned it over MUCH MORE THAN THEIR AVERAGE, and also shot their average from the FT line.
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We are 5-4 in SEC play and rank bottom 5 of a lot offensive categories. It’s not “fine”. You keep saying “oh we just have to shoot to our averages” when you are looking at our OOC against meh opponents and not SEC play. We aren’t a good offensive team.
 
#53
#53
bleedingTNorange said:
I think it’s absolutely a problem, but not a scheme problem....when I watch the game tonight should I post every good look we had in that span that we missed?
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Sure if you wanna take time to post a gif with every offensive possession so we can debate that’s fine.

Is shooting 41% in SEC play good or bad
 
#54
#54
bleedingTNorange said:
I think it’s absolutely a problem, but not a scheme problem....when I watch the game tonight should I post every good look we had in that span that we missed?
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Every scheme, or lack thereof, will produce a good look from time to time. It is going to happen. You won't pitch a shutout in basketball.

However, if you think this is a great offensive scheme in today's era with this current roster, you're either just sunshine pumping or clueless. What they are trying to do out of this base offense and motion does not fit this personnel at all and is easy to defend and scout. I honestly don't know how anybody can defend it at this point.
 
#55
#55
zjcvols said:
We are 5-4 in SEC play and rank bottom 5 of a lot offensive categories. It’s not “fine”. You keep saying “oh we just have to shoot to our averages” when you are looking at our OOC against meh opponents and not SEC play. We aren’t a good offensive team.
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I don’t think we are a great offensive team, not trying to argue that, but I think we are better than what we saw last night. Even SEC play we aren’t shooting that bad from the line (adding in front ends) and turning it over that much. Kansas is better than Ole Miss and we played a much better offensive game, not as if they are a slouch, we shot we from 3 against both teams. Against Kansas we took care of the ball and made free throws, our defense is too good for our offense to be giving up points.
 
#56
#56
zjcvols said:
Sure if you wanna take time to post a gif with every offensive possession so we can debate that’s fine.

Is shooting 41% in SEC play good or bad
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I’ll post the game time, not sure how to make GIF’s.

Bad, but our defense is among the best...again not claiming we have an elite offense, but I don’t think schematically it’s something horrible, we are coming off a game we put up 80+ on a Top 20 defense.
 
#57
#57
Vols8086 said:
Every scheme, or lack thereof, will produce a good look from time to time. It is going to happen. You won't pitch a shutout in basketball.

However, if you think this is a great offensive scheme in today's era with this current roster, you're either just sunshine pumping or clueless. What they are trying to do out of this base offense and motion does not fit this personnel at all and is easy to defend and scout. I honestly don't know how anybody can defend it at this point.
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Show me where I claimed that
 
#58
#58
bleedingTNorange said:
I don’t think we are a great offensive team, not trying to argue that, but I think we are better than what we saw last night. Even SEC play we aren’t shooting that bad from the line (adding in front ends) and turning it over that much. Kansas is better than Ole Miss and we played a much better offensive game, not as if they are a slouch, we shot we from 3 against both teams. Against Kansas we took care of the ball and made free throws, our defense is too good for our offense to be giving up points.
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I don’t think that’s true. We are 11th in conference for offensive efficiency this year. Even if you include OOC we are 71st, that’s not gonna win you postseason ball.
 
#59
#59
zjcvols said:
I don’t think that’s true. We are 11th in conference for offensive efficiency this year. Even if you include OOC we are 71st, that’s not gonna win you postseason ball.
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Well we had our 2nd worst ORTG of the season and even for conference only games were 0.2ppp below our average, so yea I don’t think I would consider last night “who we are” offensively, but if you want to make that case be my guest. Again, even going by conference games only, we perform at our average ORTG and we win that game by 13.

It won’t win you a championship, or likely make a F4, but I’m sure there’s quite a few S16 and E8 teams who had below Top 50 ORTG.
 
#60
#60
bleedingTNorange said:
Well we had our 2nd worst ORTG of the season and even for conference only games were 0.2ppp below our average, so yea I don’t think I would consider last night “who we are” offensively, but if you want to make that case be my guest. Again, even going by conference games only, we perform at our average ORTG and we win that game by 13.

It won’t win you a championship, or likely make a F4, but I’m sure there’s quite a few S16 and E8 teams who had below Top 50 ORTG.
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Again you’re completely missing the point lol.

Yes Tennessee easily could have won that game with better FT shooting or less turnovers we all get that. But the issue is we are not getting good shots and missing a lot of shots. The problem is we shot 36% against an 8-8 Ole Miss team. We shot 37% against Miss State. We shot 44% against Missouri. We shot 30% against Florida. We shot great against Kansas. So 4 out of our last 5 games we haven’t shot well. We are trending backwards. The more tape on us, the more teams are able to stop our offense.
 
#62
#62
zjcvols said:
Again you’re completely missing the point lol.

Yes Tennessee easily could have won that game with better FT shooting or less turnovers we all get that. But the issue is we are not getting good shots and missing a lot of shots. The problem is we shot 36% against an 8-8 Ole Miss team. We shot 37% against Miss State. We shot 44% against Missouri. We shot 30% against Florida. We shot great against Kansas. So 4 out of our last 5 games we haven’t shot well. We are trending backwards. The more tape on us, the more teams are able to stop our offense.
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So one of our worst shooting games, again, you seem to think that is the norm or going to be the norm. You want to mention conference only games and then when I show our ORTG for those games you want to change the sample size. Yes shooting better would be nice, as would taking care of the ball, or converting our free throws...any of those things would help, doing all would really help.

Essentially I don’t think we are as good as we looked against Kansas nor do I think we are as bad as we looked last night, you however seem to think last night is who we are and that ORTG in the 70’s will be the norm here on out....guess we will see.
 
#63
#63
Vols8086 said:
You have repeatedly said on here that the scheme isn't the problem. So that implies you are happy with the offensive scheme and think it's a good one.
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It definitely doesn’t mean I think it’s a “great one” as you claimed....I think it is good enough to win plenty of games, and there’s evidence to support that. Could it be better? Sure. Do I think changing things schematically is probably tougher at this point in the year than taking better care of the ball and shooting better, especially from the FT line, absolutely.
 
#64
#64
bleedingTNorange said:
It definitely doesn’t mean I think it’s a “great one” as you claimed....I think it is good enough to win plenty of games, and there’s evidence to support that. Could it be better? Sure. Do I think changing things schematically is probably tougher at this point in the year than taking better care of the ball and shooting better, especially from the FT line, absolutely.
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I dont think the argument is to change the whole system in February. Would you be open to a revamped schematic approach that gets implemented over the course of a few offseasons?
 
#65
#65
bleedingTNorange said:
It definitely doesn’t mean I think it’s a “great one” as you claimed....I think it is good enough to win plenty of games, and there’s evidence to support that. Could it be better? Sure. Do I think changing things schematically is probably tougher at this point in the year than taking better care of the ball and shooting better, especially from the FT line, absolutely.
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Ok, if you really want to get caught up in the semantics of "great" and "good", cool. Whatever you can find to stand on to still assert you were correct I suppose....

Also, I don't know how we are going to suddenly be better shooters at this stage in the season. Guys aren't all of a sudden going to become good shooters when there isn't any sort of previous body of work to point to. The amount of time and effort you have to put into becoming a noticeably better shooter is done in the offseason, not during the season. Sure we can shoot a bunch of extra free throws after practice, but do you really think we suddenly make some massive leap in that percentage as a team because they all shoot an extra 100 after practice? Turnovers are similar in terms of becoming a better ball handler. You aren't going to develop into this great ballhandler in the next month.

Now some of the turnovers on passes are due to the defense sitting in the passing lanes of our offense. We swing the ball at the top of the key to Fulky, Pons, or ORN and I feel like that gets batted away or stolen at least once a game. That is a scheme issue because you are putting players in a position with the basketball where they can't do anything with it. Pons can hit a 3 if you leave him alone, but none of those 3 are putting it on the floor to attack and the other 2 aren't shooting it.

Scheme is actually something we can change and you can install rather quickly (assuming it's not something incredibly complicated and our players can pick it up). It may look ugly for a bit, but you can absolutely add more sets and adjust the offense to provide different looks to counter what the defenses have been doing to us over the last month or so. I'm willing to bet that has a better chance of working than betting on our entire team suddenly shooting better individually and becoming better ball handlers.
 
#66
#66
Vol49er said:
I dont think the argument is to change the whole system in February. Would you be open to a revamped schematic approach that gets implemented over the course of a few offseasons?
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I’m always for whatever puts wins on the court, coaches should always be looking at what they think they can do better to produce more wins after each season. If Barnes feels that changing up his offensive philosophy will produce more wins than not then he absolutely should do that. It was only 2 years ago we were averaging 82ppg and won 31 games, so I don’t think Barnes all of a sudden forgot what it takes to win games or score points.
 
#67
#67
bleedingTNorange said:
I’m always for whatever puts wins on the court, coaches should always be looking at what they think they can do better to produce more wins after each season. If Barnes feels that changing up his offensive philosophy will produce more wins than not then he absolutely should do that. It was only 2 years ago we were averaging 82ppg and won 31 games, so I don’t think Barnes all of a sudden forgot what it takes to win games or score points.
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No I dont think this offense can't score points or win, and im a huge Barnes fan. I think this offense can not be consistently elite with a big who is enough aa threat to score that he must be doubled but is also an excellent passer out of the post. Though Grant Williams was one of those players, they dont grow on trees. I understand you trust Barnes to make the right call and thats fair but im just curious, if it were up to you, what kind of tweaks would you incorporate? More PNR? More of a one in 4 out offense? Pushing the pace more?
 
#68
#68
Vol49er said:
No I dont think this offense can't score points or win, and im a huge Barnes fan. I think this offense can not be consistently elite with a big who is enough aa threat to score that he must be doubled but is also an excellent passer out of the post. Though Grant Williams was one of those players, they dont grow on trees. I understand you trust Barnes to make the right call and thats fair but im just curious, if it were up to you, what kind of tweaks would you incorporate? More PNR? More of a one in 4 out offense? Pushing the pace more?
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His first team put up 75ppg with Armani Moore playing center, not sure he has to have a NBA big man in order to field a competent offense. I want to see more, I’m not going to make a claim based off last nights game, and if you want to say it’s a trend then considering the sample size we are 12-4 on the season and ranked Top 15...but we just came off a great offensive showing against a Top 20 defense nationally, so while others want to rush to make definitive claims I will wait to see a little more.

I have a hard time knowing how Barnes coaches and what he preaches that 15+ turnovers and shooting 60% from the FT line is going to be a norm for his team...if we win the game last night 62-52 what is the mood in this forum? Remember pregame folks asking why projection were showing a 61-57 game? So win 62-52 are we seeing the same complaints? Because had we taken care of the ball and hit free throws at even a reasonable number then that’s about what the score would’ve been.
 
#69
#69
bleedingTNorange said:
His first team put up 75ppg with Armani Moore playing center, not sure he has to have a NBA big man in order to field a competent offense. I want to see more, I’m not going to make a claim based off last nights game, and if you want to say it’s a trend then considering the sample size we are 12-4 on the season and ranked Top 15...but we just came off a great offensive showing against a Top 20 defense nationally, so while others want to rush to make definitive claims I will wait to see a little more.

I have a hard time knowing how Barnes coaches and what he preaches that 15+ turnovers and shooting 60% from the FT line is going to be a norm for his team...if we win the game last night 62-52 what is the mood in this forum? Remember pregame folks asking why projection were showing a 61-57 game? So win 62-52 are we seeing the same complaints? Because had we taken care of the ball and hit free throws at even a reasonable number then that’s about what the score would’ve been.
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I thought Alexander started as a freshman and Armani played the 4? Idk it doesn’t help my point much since KA wasn’t very good his freshman year

It’s worth mentioning we were 143rd in offensive efficiency that year (NCAA Basketball Stats - NCAA BB Team Offensive Efficiency on TeamRankings.com), we played fast with Punter pushing the pace

As other posters said, Ole Miss has turnovers and missed FTs as well, but it’s really more about the process for me than the results. I dream of a D’Antoni type offense where almost all our shots are either from three or at the rim after drives, and a lot of pick and roll. The turn around 12 footers, the mid range shots off curls, even the post ups with meh post players kill me, even if our players are above average at those kind of shots cause they practice them so much, it’s just not the most efficient way to play offensive basketball

Barnes is too good a coach to where the offense will just be consistently putrid every year but just because it’s good doesn’t mean it can’t be better
 
#70
#70
Vol49er said:
I thought Alexander started as a freshman and Armani played the 4? Idk it doesn’t help my point much since KA wasn’t very good his freshman year

It’s worth mentioning we were 143rd in offensive efficiency that year (NCAA Basketball Stats - NCAA BB Team Offensive Efficiency on TeamRankings.com), we played fast with Punter pushing the pace

As other posters said, Ole Miss has turnovers and missed FTs as well, but it’s really more about the process for me than the results. I dream of a D’Antoni type offense where almost all our shots are either from three or at the rim after drives, and a lot of pick and roll. The turn around 12 footers, the mid range shots off curls, even the post ups with meh post players kill me, even if our players are above average at those kind of shots cause they practice them so much, it’s just not the most efficient way to play offensive basketball

Barnes is too good a coach to where the offense will just be consistently putrid every year but just because it’s good doesn’t mean it can’t be better
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We were 7th Admirals senior year. Other than that our highest ranking in the last six seasons is this year’s, which is 78th
 
#71
#71
bleedingTNorange said:
His first team put up 75ppg with Armani Moore playing center, not sure he has to have a NBA big man in order to field a competent offense. I want to see more, I’m not going to make a claim based off last nights game, and if you want to say it’s a trend then considering the sample size we are 12-4 on the season and ranked Top 15...but we just came off a great offensive showing against a Top 20 defense nationally, so while others want to rush to make definitive claims I will wait to see a little more.

I have a hard time knowing how Barnes coaches and what he preaches that 15+ turnovers and shooting 60% from the FT line is going to be a norm for his team...if we win the game last night 62-52 what is the mood in this forum? Remember pregame folks asking why projection were showing a 61-57 game? So win 62-52 are we seeing the same complaints? Because had we taken care of the ball and hit free throws at even a reasonable number then that’s about what the score would’ve been.
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Armani Moore was a dog. Grant Williams was a dog. Admiral Schofield was a dog. John Fulkerson and Yves Pons aren’t. You can be undersized and hold your own in the paint, but you have to be strong physically and mentally. Otherwise you just get pushed around (Fulk) or simply shy away from contact (Pons).

No intelligent poster is suggesting Barnes make wholesale changes to the offensive philosophy as a whole. As you said, two years ago, it generated the best season in Tennessee history. But the philosophy and the personnel have to mesh and our personnel (guys CRB recruited) don’t fit that system. We don’t currently have the personnel to play the same way we did two years ago so we need some coaching flexibility to put them in positions to be most effective. I think that is a fair criticism.
 
#72
#72
cncchris33 said:
Armani Moore was a dog. Grant Williams was a dog. Admiral Schofield was a dog. John Fulkerson and Yves Pons aren’t. You can be undersized and hold your own in the paint, but you have to be strong physically and mentally. Otherwise you just get pushed around (Fulk) or simply shy away from contact (Pons).

No intelligent poster is suggesting Barnes make wholesale changes to the offensive philosophy as a whole. As you said, two years ago, it generated the best season in Tennessee history. But the philosophy and the personnel have to mesh and our personnel (guys CRB recruited) don’t fit that system. We don’t currently have the personnel to play the same way we did two years ago so we need some coaching flexibility to put them in positions to be most effective. I think that is a fair criticism.
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Fulk has also been playing hurt majority of the year, not sure how that has impacted things. Again, not saying some criticism isn’t fair or that we couldn’t be better, but I do think that if we take care of the ball and shoot free throws well (things we normally do) that our offense is going to be good enough on most nights to win us a lot more games than we lose.

We have the #1 defense but #71 offense, Iowa is 13-4 and has the #1 offense and #117 defense, maybe their board is campaigning for them do make major defensive changes? And I have seen quite a few posters claiming Barnes ditch the motion offense, which would be a wholesale change IMO.
 
#73
#73
Vol49er said:
We were 7th Admirals senior year. Other than that our highest ranking in the last six seasons is this year’s, which is 78th
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Barnes is a defensive coach, that’s what he wants, so far it has produced quite a few wins and this year it’s doing the same...would I like to see us be better offensively? Sure. Would making some changes come at the expense of some defense? Maybe. Iowa is much like us, but reverse, elite offense but horrendous defense...they also have 4 losses...much of our fan base seems to be fixated on offense while dismissing the fact we have an elite defense.
 
#74
#74
bleedingTNorange said:
Barnes is a defensive coach, that’s what he wants, so far it has produced quite a few wins and this year it’s doing the same...would I like to see us be better offensively? Sure. Would making some changes come at the expense of some defense? Maybe. Iowa is much like us, but reverse, elite offense but horrendous defense...they also have 4 losses...much of our fan base seems to be fixated on offense while dismissing the fact we have an elite defense.
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That’s fair, and that’s why I’m not down on Barnes despite the offense being poor in 5/6 seasons. Because regardless he’s won a lot of games. I personally would be ok if some changes came at the expense of some defense. And idk anything about Iowa or their defensive philosophy so I don’t have an opinion on that
 
#75
#75
Vol49er said:
That’s fair, and that’s why I’m not down on Barnes despite the offense being poor in 5/6 seasons. Because regardless he’s won a lot of games. I personally would be ok if some changes came at the expense of some defense. And idk anything about Iowa or their defensive philosophy so I don’t have an opinion on that
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We likely won’t ever be elite on offense under Barnes, maybe that’s hard for some to accept, we will/have been elite defensively under him...you don’t have to be elite in both, but you do need to be efficient enough in both to be considered along the best teams, typically Top 25 efficiency in both areas. Tennessee was right there earlier in the year and early in conference play, we made a big climb after Kansas, tumbled last night...I want to see how we look going forward because we’ve been all over the map in conference play, 4 Top 25 offensive outings and 5 that were much lower than that, the issue to me it seems partially is that when we are bad offensively WE ARE BAD, and that sticks out to people.
 
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