Recruiting Forum Football Talk III

[KeyVol14]

How come we haven’t heard anything?!

 

[LA Vol]

So why would Napier think he’s earned this? I’m assuming that from earlier posts about his demands. Saban had won a title at LSU. Track record of winning at a high level. Napier hasn’t proven anything. Sure he has won... in the Sun Belt.

Coaches egos are on another level and I work with doctors

I was also referring to earlier posts about what he wants. IDK what his exact demands would be-- but other P5 programs wouldn't or couldn't meet them. He has said he would only consider schools that had the infrastructure he's looking for in place, would meet his demands, give him free rein on staffing and exercise the patience to let him build his program his way without a lot of interference. How that would play out time-wise, what it would entail contractually and how it would work with a hands-on AD and a Chancellor who's going to be keeping a close eye on things, IDK.

If UT is in the market and has interest in Napier, they'll have to talk to him and find out exactly what he wants and how he would envision it playing out at UT.

 

[Nash_Vol97]

Bad angle by Byard there. Can’t blame him too much though... hard to tackle Lamar in space.

 

[MrVolton]

Longtime lurker, first-time poster. I am no insider, so those looking for juice feel free to skip. It’s a long read and you’ll find no bombshells.
Background: Grew up in Knoxville and now live in another large southern city. Graduated from UT graduate school. Attended all home games as a child and had front-row seat for the Majors’ era and start of Fulmer. Attended Johnny Majors’ football camp for several years. Traveled to see Vols play in Athens, Gainesville, and Tuscaloosa. I don’t miss games on TV and follow recruiting vigorously. I casually know some low-level boosters, coaches, and former players. I am no insider, however. I just wanted to establish some level of credibility in here.
It pains me to the core to admit, but it has become clear that this program is mid-tier in terms of desirability. We are very unlikely to be able to attract a “top-tier” coach. Reasoning? Geographic-East TN is not a football hotbed. Competitive arena-“welcome to your new job, coach. Now go beat UA, UF, Uga, plus recruit against all of them, as well as Clemson, Aub,LSU, SC, UNC, and Kiffen”. Brutal.
In addition, there are somewhat intangible reasons why this is not a desirable job…currently. What’s going on with the admin? That’s for the “insiders” to tell us. I can lend a little color on that. I had a chance encounter with a Power 5 coach with UT ties who was part of the coaching discussion during one of these frustrating coaching searches over the past 13 years. He was very open with me when I asked why he would not to come to Knoxville. His explanation: large disconnect between the admin/board and AD/coach. Untenable and not built for success. He went on to explain that you won’t find that disconnect at Alabama. Now, this was pre-Boyd. Who knows if he can change this….or if he wants to.
What about illicit reasons? We can talk at length regarding amateurism and the NCAA. There are those programs that can fall back on their academic chops and the overall education package as a sell for recruits. The Stanfords, Northwesterns, Dukes and Vandys of the world. They recruit a specific type of athlete. I don’t believe that we-as vol nation-are willing to relegate ourselves to that level. The OSUs, UFs and Ugas of the world? They check all the boxes regarding attractiveness for top recruits (recent success, facilities, NFL players, strong coaches) but they also enhance those platforms financially for the families. I’ve seen those discussion happen right in front of me (not a UT recruit). It can be very intricate. These “programs” are in place, both for incoming as well as retaining players. I have a suspicion that our systems at UT are pretty good. Are they as good as say, UGa’s? You’d have to ask the players/families/handlers but until the NCAA is dissolved and the players start to win some court battles and get paid appropriately, we need to make sure our “system” is tight and competitive.
Imagine if you can, the situation you are in if you are the decision-makers here. The best analogy would be if our decision-makers are the board of directors for a company that is under-performing with an embattled CEO (JP), facing some legal or regulatory issues (NCAA), with a declining brand (we haven’t won anything in 13 years and have lost a generation of fans). It’s like Boeing, or a big tobacco company. You are simultaneously trying to find someone to rebuild the brand while dealing with the legal and financial issues associated with removing the current CEO. Don’t do it correctly and you can be sued. Plus, you now have to find someone that is substantially better to merit the burn. Is that guy out there? I truly don’t know. See above comments- the top tier coaches aren’t coming. That has been demonstrated time and time again over the past 13 years (Mullen, Brohm, Gundy, Gruden, Belichick, etc). It’s kind of embarrassing but the sooner we absorb that, the better. Hasty decisions over the past 13 years have led to our current state. So, do you consider retaining the current CEO (JP)? Aside from legal and financial considerations (I cannot comment), it seems to boil down to 3 factors. One-is there someone better out there who is willing to come? See above: unclear. Two-the labor force. In other words, the players. My opinion, the players are bigger, faster, and play football better than the previous regime. Underperforming, yes. Is there potential to increase the quality of the work force, yes (2022 class). How much does a change at the top jeopardize this? Some might say, don’t let the tail wag the dog. I would argue that without good players, there will be no success-at least not in the SEC. Lasty-how much motivation or desire does the current leadership have to remain in that position. To me, that is the most perplexing thing about our current situation. We have seen JP demonstrate some emotional attachment to this program exactly once: post-game press conference after UGA year one. The other examples of “fire” are largely related to crappy play by immature players that any coach would rightly lose their noodle over (JG facemask, Fla chalkboard). Does he truly want to be here? With huge contracts and massive buyouts, have we taken the fire from the bellies of many of these coaches? If he gets shown the door, I am not sure he would lose any sleep over this. Clearly, that is a problem.
Action plan if I mattered in this discussion? Be patient. Questions that need to be answered: 1) violations and repercussions. Don’t rush this. Be smart. 2) question 1 determines if can keep JP. 3) If can’t, who is out there? I don’t love saying this, but if can keep JP, may be wise to do so. I go back to the labor force argument. We will lose players, both coming and going that may be of scale to set us back to pre-Butch levels. Danger. Perhaps it is best to let him re-stock the cupboard (which he is doing fairly well) until he demonstrates he can coach or the right candidate comes along. In the meantime, rework his deal so that he has a little more “skin in the game.”
What if we find that we can’t keep JP? I am going to work under the assumption that in mid-january, we are looking at 2009 scenario and are looking at a Dooley-level candidate, at best (don’t give me Freeze. His record at Ole Miss was decent, but with paid players and they got caught. Huge asterisk). I would have to consider Fulmer. I’m prepared to take your punches, but look at Bill Synder’s brief return to K State and Mack in Chapel Hill. Right the ship, bring some nostalgia energy, and in Phil’s case, probably bring in some pretty good players. In meantime, look for the right guy for the long term….and let Phil’s contract reflect a graceful exit when that time comes.
What about Vol Nation? Strengths: Passion. Loyalty. Generosity. Weaknesses: often the passion can lead to irrationality and entitlement. I say this as one who has been there, time and time again. My family hates Saturdays in the fall because they know I will be a terrible mood approximately 5 to 7 out of 12 weeks per season. Often we rage because we feel the passion for the program and yet, we cannot control things. We give our all for Tennessee and expect it in return. Our emotions are on our sleeves. Unfortunately, sometimes that manifests as irrational thoughts about what does or does not need to be done to get us back to 1998. Anger and hatred towards players and coaches. We end up looking somewhat silly. It hurts the brand. We look bad in the media. Parody songs are written about us . It affects players, families, and coaches adversely. Is it possible to remodel the passion? This is one thing we CAN control. Perhaps put a classier spin on our passion? Act like we’ve been to the mountaintop before (because we have). I have to tell you, when I read this board, sometimes we come across like Va Tech or UscJr fans-those with much passion, but no credibility. I think there is a line we cross where our passion becomes a detriment. I will get bum-rushed for saying this but we do look like amateurs sometimes. So, consider this a plea to focus on what we do best without looking like we are in Blacksburg. Let’s let this situation play out and aggressively support the coaches and players left standing. GBO.

1. Welcome and thank you for sharing your insight.
2. Anything that advocates keeping Pruitt loses me. He has nothing tangible to hang his hat on in the way of progress.
3. Fan-blaming loses me, the UT fan base has been patient long enough and it’s a miracle that there are even enough of us still around to care. Check Auburn and Florida message boards coming off winning seasons and even division championships, we are far from the only “irrational” fanbase in the SEC.
4. I don’t expect a trip to Atlanta by year 3, but we regularly recruit ahead of every team in this conference except UGA, Bama, and LSU, and (marginally, on paper anyway) Florida and Auburn. A decent coach should be winning all SEC games aside from those by year 3, if he isn’t, then see if the next one can get it done. These are not unreasonable expectations for this program.

 

[Batman1948]

Yep, it's stop the bleeding time. If the decision had been reached to fire him, the solution would have been to fire him cleanly, pay the buyout and get a prime position in the coaching sweepstakes. Then handle the investigation separately and swiftly.

Outside counsel will make a recommendation based on final findings and probable outcomes. Pruitt's response and how far down the list they'll have to go will be factors. The only sure thing is UT has whacked a hornet's nest and now has to deal with the swarm.

In your opinion, is anyone in the organization even talking to our current players and the class coming in this year. I know they can't give them specifics but those guys must be thinking nobody cares about them.

 

[LA Vol]

In your opinion, is anyone in the origination even talking to our current players and the class coming in this year. I know they can't give them specifics but those guys must be thinking nobody cares about them.

Yes, they've talked to them, as well as guys who've already left the program.

 

[KeyVol14]

Yes, they've talked to them, as well as guys who've already left the program.

Realistically once Pruitt is gone cuz I don’t see how he comes back, who is our options at this point?

 

[snowvols]

If Milton is healthy next year they might be pretty good.

 

[Nash_Vol97]

I was also referring to earlier posts about what he wants. IDK what his exact demands would be-- but other P5 programs wouldn't or couldn't meet them. He has said he would only consider schools that had the infrastructure he's looking for in place, would meet his demands, give him free rein on staffing and exercise the patience to let him build his program his way without a lot of interference. How that would play out time-wise, what it would entail contractually and how it would work with a hands-on AD and a Chancellor who's going to be keeping a close eye on things, IDK.

If UT is in the market and has interest in Napier, they'll have to talk to him and find out exactly what he wants and how he would envision it playing out at UT.

In the article that was written about Napier’s patience and what he was looking for in an opportunity, there was also a quote about something Napier won’t do.

“He doesn’t want to take a job that already has immediate disadvantage built in before you play a game,” a person close to Napier told 247Sports.

Based off that quote, I would think if this investigation has any ramifications (scholarship reductions, bowl ban, etc), then Napier is off the table.

Why Billy Napier keeps passing up Power 5 jobs

 

[Orange Studs]

Unfortunately, we don't have a Ryan Day, Lincoln Riley or Dabo Swinney waiting in the wings. Even if UT were in a good place, we don't have anyone ready to step into the job.

The big problem with digging deep is you find stuff beyond what you started with. Firing someone for what you find comes with blowback, especially if they're not eager to go. So the question becomes how do you handle it with the NCAA waiting and watching, how much is it going to cost to make someone go quietly, how far down your list do you have to go to replace him and where's the sweet spot? Creating situations where UT is forced to pay large buyouts to go too far down the list has not been a winning strategy-- as everyone at UT is well aware.

So LA, the staff gets the school in trouble with NCAA but if the school fires the HC and most of the staff that caused it, why is it that the school always looks bad for the fire?

 

[HankHill]

@HankHill is Eric Bieniemy going to get his shot this year in the NFL? If not, how’s that guy not getting a call from us..

I think so. I think his time at Colorado was bad and i think some some off the field issues there as well.

 

[84Volfan]

I’ve been trying to say he is not as liked by players as many believe. The meltdown that is coming when one player is announced will be epic. Not even idiot Tennessee Studs could defend.

Defense or offense?

 

[Dudley Smith]

Longtime lurker, first-time poster. I am no insider, so those looking for juice feel free to skip. It’s a long read and you’ll find no bombshells.
Background: Grew up in Knoxville and now live in another large southern city. Graduated from UT graduate school. Attended all home games as a child and had front-row seat for the Majors’ era and start of Fulmer. Attended Johnny Majors’ football camp for several years. Traveled to see Vols play in Athens, Gainesville, and Tuscaloosa. I don’t miss games on TV and follow recruiting vigorously. I casually know some low-level boosters, coaches, and former players. I am no insider, however. I just wanted to establish some level of credibility in here.
It pains me to the core to admit, but it has become clear that this program is mid-tier in terms of desirability. We are very unlikely to be able to attract a “top-tier” coach. Reasoning? Geographic-East TN is not a football hotbed. Competitive arena-“welcome to your new job, coach. Now go beat UA, UF, Uga, plus recruit against all of them, as well as Clemson, Aub,LSU, SC, UNC, and Kiffen”. Brutal.
In addition, there are somewhat intangible reasons why this is not a desirable job…currently. What’s going on with the admin? That’s for the “insiders” to tell us. I can lend a little color on that. I had a chance encounter with a Power 5 coach with UT ties who was part of the coaching discussion during one of these frustrating coaching searches over the past 13 years. He was very open with me when I asked why he would not to come to Knoxville. His explanation: large disconnect between the admin/board and AD/coach. Untenable and not built for success. He went on to explain that you won’t find that disconnect at Alabama. Now, this was pre-Boyd. Who knows if he can change this….or if he wants to.
What about illicit reasons? We can talk at length regarding amateurism and the NCAA. There are those programs that can fall back on their academic chops and the overall education package as a sell for recruits. The Stanfords, Northwesterns, Dukes and Vandys of the world. They recruit a specific type of athlete. I don’t believe that we-as vol nation-are willing to relegate ourselves to that level. The OSUs, UFs and Ugas of the world? They check all the boxes regarding attractiveness for top recruits (recent success, facilities, NFL players, strong coaches) but they also enhance those platforms financially for the families. I’ve seen those discussion happen right in front of me (not a UT recruit). It can be very intricate. These “programs” are in place, both for incoming as well as retaining players. I have a suspicion that our systems at UT are pretty good. Are they as good as say, UGa’s? You’d have to ask the players/families/handlers but until the NCAA is dissolved and the players start to win some court battles and get paid appropriately, we need to make sure our “system” is tight and competitive.
Imagine if you can, the situation you are in if you are the decision-makers here. The best analogy would be if our decision-makers are the board of directors for a company that is under-performing with an embattled CEO (JP), facing some legal or regulatory issues (NCAA), with a declining brand (we haven’t won anything in 13 years and have lost a generation of fans). It’s like Boeing, or a big tobacco company. You are simultaneously trying to find someone to rebuild the brand while dealing with the legal and financial issues associated with removing the current CEO. Don’t do it correctly and you can be sued. Plus, you now have to find someone that is substantially better to merit the burn. Is that guy out there? I truly don’t know. See above comments- the top tier coaches aren’t coming. That has been demonstrated time and time again over the past 13 years (Mullen, Brohm, Gundy, Gruden, Belichick, etc). It’s kind of embarrassing but the sooner we absorb that, the better. Hasty decisions over the past 13 years have led to our current state. So, do you consider retaining the current CEO (JP)? Aside from legal and financial considerations (I cannot comment), it seems to boil down to 3 factors. One-is there someone better out there who is willing to come? See above: unclear. Two-the labor force. In other words, the players. My opinion, the players are bigger, faster, and play football better than the previous regime. Underperforming, yes. Is there potential to increase the quality of the work force, yes (2022 class). How much does a change at the top jeopardize this? Some might say, don’t let the tail wag the dog. I would argue that without good players, there will be no success-at least not in the SEC. Lasty-how much motivation or desire does the current leadership have to remain in that position. To me, that is the most perplexing thing about our current situation. We have seen JP demonstrate some emotional attachment to this program exactly once: post-game press conference after UGA year one. The other examples of “fire” are largely related to crappy play by immature players that any coach would rightly lose their noodle over (JG facemask, Fla chalkboard). Does he truly want to be here? With huge contracts and massive buyouts, have we taken the fire from the bellies of many of these coaches? If he gets shown the door, I am not sure he would lose any sleep over this. Clearly, that is a problem.
Action plan if I mattered in this discussion? Be patient. Questions that need to be answered: 1) violations and repercussions. Don’t rush this. Be smart. 2) question 1 determines if can keep JP. 3) If can’t, who is out there? I don’t love saying this, but if can keep JP, may be wise to do so. I go back to the labor force argument. We will lose players, both coming and going that may be of scale to set us back to pre-Butch levels. Danger. Perhaps it is best to let him re-stock the cupboard (which he is doing fairly well) until he demonstrates he can coach or the right candidate comes along. In the meantime, rework his deal so that he has a little more “skin in the game.”
What if we find that we can’t keep JP? I am going to work under the assumption that in mid-january, we are looking at 2009 scenario and are looking at a Dooley-level candidate, at best (don’t give me Freeze. His record at Ole Miss was decent, but with paid players and they got caught. Huge asterisk). I would have to consider Fulmer. I’m prepared to take your punches, but look at Bill Synder’s brief return to K State and Mack in Chapel Hill. Right the ship, bring some nostalgia energy, and in Phil’s case, probably bring in some pretty good players. In meantime, look for the right guy for the long term….and let Phil’s contract reflect a graceful exit when that time comes.
What about Vol Nation? Strengths: Passion. Loyalty. Generosity. Weaknesses: often the passion can lead to irrationality and entitlement. I say this as one who has been there, time and time again. My family hates Saturdays in the fall because they know I will be a terrible mood approximately 5 to 7 out of 12 weeks per season. Often we rage because we feel the passion for the program and yet, we cannot control things. We give our all for Tennessee and expect it in return. Our emotions are on our sleeves. Unfortunately, sometimes that manifests as irrational thoughts about what does or does not need to be done to get us back to 1998. Anger and hatred towards players and coaches. We end up looking somewhat silly. It hurts the brand. We look bad in the media. Parody songs are written about us . It affects players, families, and coaches adversely. Is it possible to remodel the passion? This is one thing we CAN control. Perhaps put a classier spin on our passion? Act like we’ve been to the mountaintop before (because we have). I have to tell you, when I read this board, sometimes we come across like Va Tech or UscJr fans-those with much passion, but no credibility. I think there is a line we cross where our passion becomes a detriment. I will get bum-rushed for saying this but we do look like amateurs sometimes. So, consider this a plea to focus on what we do best without looking like we are in Blacksburg. Let’s let this situation play out and aggressively support the coaches and players left standing. GBO.

Source has got to be Cutcliffe, right?

 

[VolGee4]

Oh, I agree with you. The disconnect was simply one of the reasons why a good coach may not want to come to our university.

This is part of the problem. The big disconnect limits our candidate pool, which makes it more difficult to find a good coach. After 4 hires, you have too look in the mirror.

 

[SmokinBob]

Whatever it takes to keep that tick turd away from here.

You said tick turd! My big sister used to call me a tick turd!

 

[Nashvegas31]

If Milton is healthy next year they might be pretty good.

FSU/Norvell doing what we should and hoped to do but instead we got snitches who I hope to goodness get stitches

 

[volamite86]

I just don’t understand why everyone is so excited about firing with cause. This will lead to nothing but bad things for the school. And if there is a coaching vacancy, no coach worth a damn will entertain coming here. Too many short sighted people around here.

 

[volfaninpa]

With Guarantano going to Washington State and JT Shrout going to Colorado, it just occurred to me that they could be playing against each other in a conference game next year in the Pac-12.

Sorry it's not something about Pruitt.

 

[Helton1]

Stopped reading when you said big disconnect is causing our issues. Biggest issue is we have hired bad coaches. Pruitt has been given everything to succes, he is just not a good coach. Even if the administration and coaches don’t always see eye to eye, that has nothing to do with the coach not being able to be successful. If you coach your players up and recruit well, you will win here. Period.

That’s the problem with our world now. You stop reading when you hear one thing you disagree with.

 

[SmokinBob]

I’ve been trying to say he is not as liked by players as many believe. The meltdown that is coming when one player is announced will be epic. Not even idiot Tennessee Studs could defend.

Please no...say it ain’t To’o To’o

 

[sona]

People saying they’d be satisfied with 8 win seasons with the occasional 9-10 year seasons are FOS.

You’d be calling for that coaches head too.

I'd be happy with a three win season provided the wins were against FL, BAMA, and Georgia.

 

[FranklinVFL]

Judging by the way he handled VY, I don't think he'd do a great job dealing with diva college kids and diva college kid parents.

The issue with VY was Bud Adams.

Also of note regarding how he handled his players--they all loved playing for him, the coaches loved coaching with him as well....

...and how many divas did the Titans have? Not many at all. He managed his players to be a 'team' and successfully got them all moving the same way.

 

[BJWeeks]

I was also referring to earlier posts about what he wants. IDK what his exact demands would be-- but other P5 programs wouldn't or couldn't meet them. He has said he would only consider schools that had the infrastructure he's looking for in place, would meet his demands, give him free rein on staffing and exercise the patience to let him build his program his way without a lot of interference. How that would play out time-wise, what it would entail contractually and how it would work with a hands-on AD and a Chancellor who's going to be keeping a close eye on things, IDK.

If UT is in the market and has interest in Napier, they'll have to talk to him and find out exactly what he wants and how he would envision it playing out at UT.

Or they could offer the job to Kiffin or Freeze and make the fanbase happy for once and show that they actually care about winning again

 

[Batman1948]

HB isn’t leaving. He’s the starter.

What do you think Henry T is

 

[BearCat204]

I just don’t understand why everyone is so excited about firing with cause. This will lead to nothing but bad things for the school. And if there is a coaching vacancy, no coach worth a damn will entertain coming here. Too many short sighted people around here.

Just blantantly false