Prison reform needed?

#4
#4
Of course it is.

I get a chuckle when folks compare our incarceration to other countries. Other countries employ other methods of punishment. So, an Asian country may not have near our rate of incarceration but they may use public caning. That would never happen in America.
 
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#5
#5
McDad said:
Of course it is.

I get a chuckle when folks compare our incarceration to other countries. Other countries employ other methods of punishment. So, an Asian country may not have near our rate of incarceration but they may use public caning. That would never happen in America.
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I mean, ok, but it’s not a metric that suffers from an apples to apples to apples comparison. Canada, Western Europe, and Nordic countries (if you don’t consider them Western Europe) all still have far lower (usually around 1/5 or below) rates of incarceration.
 
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#6
#6
RockyTop85 said:
I mean, ok, but it’s not a metric that suffers from an apples to apples to apples comparison. Canada, Western Europe, and Nordic countries (if you don’t consider them Western Europe) all still have far lower (usually around 1/5 or below) rates of incarceration.
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Agreed. I used the caning example as an extreme difference in allowable punishments.

Are the more similar countries comparable in number of laws on the books and punishments when laws are broken?
 
#9
#9
davethevol said:
That’s definitely a big problem. We also need to get back to having mental institutions that hold the mentally ill. Reagan shutting them down was a big cause of what we are seeing now.
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We are, and always have been, a punitive nation. There’s a place for punishment, but we take it way too far.
 
#10
#10
I think there are two issues at play here.

The link goes on about actual reform of our actual prison system. To create a more constructive system.

The second is a DoJ reform for drugs/non violent offenders to be treated differently than they are currently.

I think the first is most interesting. My understanding is that currently these programs right now in the prison system are more of the "self help" category. If you want meaningful change you would have to introduce mandatory self help classes or whatever. That seems short sighted given the nature of the individuals involved. Maybe instead of grades the prisoners are separated by crimes or severity or # of times in the system.

The second is the easiest to achieve and is almost purely administrative. The laws need to be changed on who goes to jail.
 
#11
#11
Pure speculation but seems we've also substituted prisons for mental institutions. We went away from mental institutions but the problems we addressed with them didn't go away.

Agree with major reform on the drug side of things.

Also seem to have a system that encourages recidivism rather than deterring it (also part of the drug side of things).
 
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#12
#12
Yes we need major reforms in the prison systems and criminal justice systems in all states and at the federal level.
 
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#13
#13
volinbham said:
Pure speculation but seems we've also substituted prisons for mental institutions. We went away from mental institutions but the problems we addressed with them didn't go away.

Agree with major reform on the drug side of things.

Also seem to have a system that encourages recidivism rather than deterring it (also part of the drug side of things).
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I think a big driver is for profit prisons, and even the government prisons are big money makers for some. They dont want to fix the issue because they get too much money from it.
 
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#17
#17
I don't think our system of incarceration in this country is particularly top notch, but I also think most of the prison reform activism movements are extremely naive about the type of people that populate level 3 prisons and higher in this country.
 
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#18
#18
volinbham said:
Pure speculation but seems we've also substituted prisons for mental institutions. We went away from mental institutions but the problems we addressed with them didn't go away.

Agree with major reform on the drug side of things.

Also seem to have a system that encourages recidivism rather than deterring it (also part of the drug side of things).
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When we closed the mental health institutes we had to do something with people that couldn’t cope with society. Luckily many of them assisted in the solution.... by not coping with society very well.

People railed at mental institutions and there’s a reason for concern. Violating a persons liberties is a big deal. But just putting them out in public and drugging them hoping that would fix it then just locking them up when it didnt? 🤷‍♂️
 
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#19
#19
NorthDallas40 said:
When we closed the mental health institutes we had to do something with people that couldn’t cope with society. Luckily many of them assisted in the solution.... by not coping with society very well.

People railed at mental institutions and there’s a reason for concern. Violating a persons liberties is a big deal. But just putting them out in public and drugging them hoping that would fix it then just locking them up when it didnt? 🤷‍♂️
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The most effective way to prevent crime from young anti social hyper aggressive men is to put them in jail until they are about 26 and their aggression instinct drops of significantly.

I'm totally open to "mental health" alternatives to that.. Unfortunately there aren't any that I'm aware of that are very effective.
 
#21
#21
theFallGuy said:
so you are okay with crack, heroin, and bath salts being legal? Serious question
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I’m interested to see how it plays out in Oregon, but I’m open to the idea.

Eliminating the black market for drugs through decriminalization would eliminate a lot of funding for other criminal enterprises and would remove a considerable amount of drug-adjacent crime.
 
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#22
#22
RockyTop85 said:
I’m interested to see how it plays out in Oregon, but I’m open to the idea.

Eliminating the black market for drugs through decriminalization would eliminate a lot of funding for other criminal enterprises and would remove a considerable amount of drug-adjacent crime.
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Decriminalization is a terrible idea. Treat drugs exactly the same as we do hard liquor.
 
#24
#24
This is yet another sector that suffers from the prioritization of profiteering over problem solving.
 
#25
#25
McDad said:
Agreed. I used the caning example as an extreme difference in allowable punishments.

Are the more similar countries comparable in number of laws on the books and punishments when laws are broken?
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I doubt it. Law enforcement has two well-organized lobbying operations in most states. A lot of our laws are designed around furtherance of the drug war.
 
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