Gun control debate (merged)

#15,176
#15,176
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Yeah... ok....

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“Turn in a gun that you are not using to keep it from falling into the wrong hands “ . I’m going tomorrow to my bank with a flyer just like that except I’m replacing “ Gun with “ All your money “ and try that same line on them . Wish me luck . 😂
 
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#15,179
#15,179
DancingOutlaw said:
Where is this happening exactly? Are lots of people being shot with grandma’s wheel gun?
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Ha! My grandmother had a S&W 32 snubnose she kept under her spare pillow , I would rather have just thrown it at you instead of pulling that trigger twice and it make both my eardrums bleed . Lol
 
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#15,186
#15,186
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
It’s senseless gun violence, man. Don’t you care about the children? Be reasonable and rational....

Yeah, **** that. NEVER give up your guns.
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Old saying, and almost certain that you've already heard it, but...

"You might kill me with my gun, but you'll have to beat me to death with it, because it will be empty by the time you get to me."

When we teach the tough topics in IST...Active Shooter, Armed Encounter, Ambush, etc....one of the things we talk about is "what if you get shot". Based on data from previous OIS's, here's what we teach: Unless it's a CNS shot, even if fatally wounded you generally have 3 to 5 seconds before you black out. Use it to make it easy for us to find who shot you.

Tough love.
 
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#15,187
#15,187
0nelilreb said:
Ha! My grandmother had a S&W 32 snubnose she kept under her spare pillow , I would rather have just thrown it at you instead of pulling that trigger twice and it make both my eardrums bleed . Lol
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My grandma lived beside us, and I'd stay with her at night to help watch her, from like me being 10-15 years old. She had a .22 revolver, but they'd only buy her blanks. Which is good, cause she'd fire away over any noise at night😂.
 
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#15,188
#15,188
GreyWolf1129 said:
Old saying, and almost certain that you've already heard it, but...

"You might kill me with my gun, but you'll have to beat me to death with it, because it will be empty by the time you get to me."

When we teach the tough topics in IST...Active Shooter, Armed Encounter, Ambush, etc....one of the things we talk about is "what if you get shot". Based on data from previous OIS's, here's what we teach: Unless it's a CNS shot, even if fatally wounded you generally have 3 to 5 seconds before you black out. Use it to make it easy for us to find who shot you.

Tough love.
Click to expand...
Indeed.
 
#15,191
#15,191
TNVOLNAVY said:
Slo Jo’s gun plan. Read it and prepare as best as possible.

Joe Biden's Plan to End Gun Violence | Joe Biden for President
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Prioritize prosecution of straw purchasers. “Straw purchasers” buy a firearm on behalf of an individual who cannot pass a background check. Biden will end those loopholes by enacting a law to make all straw purchases a serious federal crime and ensure the U.S. Justice Department has sufficient resources to prioritize their prosecution.
Click to expand...

Straw purchases have been illegal since GCA 68. Also I don't get what this raging boner regarding assault rifles is about. They are rarely used in homicides.

Federal law prevents hunters from hunting migratory game birds with more than three shells in their shotgun. That means our federal law does more to protect ducks than children.
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Seriously who writes this garbage?
 
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#15,192
#15,192
TNVOLNAVY said:
Slo Jo’s gun plan. Read it and prepare as best as possible.

Joe Biden's Plan to End Gun Violence | Joe Biden for President
Click to expand...
1. Gun manufacturers accountable. What manufacturer is held responsible for the criminal use of their product? Never heard of Ford getting sued when their is an accident, yet alone someone purposefully running someone over. Biden claims it's in every other industry. I dont know of one do you?
2. Weapons of war and large mags. 9th circuit court *corrected* just ruled against bans on large mags. So he is proposing unconstitutional measures. And then weapons of war is a laughable term. A 9mm glock that cops carry is a weapon of war under his definition. Is that rationale or reasonable @luthervol?
3. Not letting manufacturers make "minor" changes that dont reduce lethality. Again another nonsensical phrase with no understanding behind it. This belief goes off the cosmetics. The difference between semiautomic and automatic is a huge functional change. And depending on whatever "reasonable and rational" non understanding of the word "difference" there is a huge step down in lethality. I laugh at the example given about three shot gun shells vs birds... where in the US is it legal to shoot children? It's not. More fear mongering bs built on a complete lack of intellectually honest discussion.
4. Ok here he brings up crime. And how registered weapons are rarely used. Using the governments own info the "assault weapon" of choice to use in crimes is a hand gun. So much so that rifles, which would be the assault weapons Biden doesnt understand, is going after 3% of firearms used in crimes. Handguns make up 71%. Rational or reasonable @luthervol to go after weapons you completely lied about the usage of?
6. Buy back of "assault weapons" Government is welcome to offer to do that. Not sure where they steal the money from. But offering buy back programs doesnt bother me. *note this isnt a mandatory buy back*. Not sure how many he thinks slipped thru but ok. @luthervol here is one for your boy.
7. Limiting purchases to one per month. This is a property right issue not a gun issue imo. They are just using the scary gun blanket to cover an unconstitutional expansion of power. And another one not based on any facts that this would work.
8. Expand background checks. Here is another half decent idea. Problem here is the Dems have fought this. Rs sought to expand the search to include non nationals, dems fought it(military base shooting in Florida). Dems also fought additional flagging of failed background checks by ICE. They only want to keep guns out of certain wrong hands. And I wonder how this ties in to felons getting to vote, will they be able to buy guns? Or are we only returning some rights and keeping felons as half citizens?
9. Online gun buying loophole. Lol. One this doesnt exist. Two good luck regulating that. This literally isnt going to stop anyone. But again this is a property crime violation. Unless the sale happens between people of different states they have non constitutional right to interfere.
10. Taking away guns from the senile. There are worse ideals here, my issue is there is no due process. This gives the government the ability to come in and steal lawful items from citizens. That's a whole host of unconstitutional. But again this relies on government agencies talking effectively to each other.
11. Hate crimes misdemeanors are now escalated to the level of felons and cant own guns. That's a dozy. Seems like a whole lot of extra power that goes outside the area of law. I would get it if this was limited to violent "hate" crimes. But this doesnt make that distinction.
12. Expanding the automatic pass from 3 days to 10 days. Just imagine having to wait to vote. Oh sorry the government didnt approve your right in time, better luck in four years. I love that he is just going to make the FBI more effective with pen here. Real fantasy land stuff with no way of saying how.
13. They are pretty vague on what happened here. Not sure why it needs to be a law about fugitives from the law not being able to buy guns. That should already be caught by the fbi in the universal background check. I guess this is a good one, but again without specifics there is a whole lot of wrong that could be hidden behind good intentions. Under this line of thinking are people in jail, not prison, or out on bail or just awaiting trial not given their other rights? If they are denied equally I dont see much of an issue.
14. End the online sale of guns, ammo, and kit.....good luck. And you cant buy guns online. Seems like a rational or reasonable person would know that.
15. Bahahahaha gun collection from those individuals who shouldnt legally have guns. I wish them luck, but holey crap that's a TON of manpower, logistics, and research. And with cases like Breona Taylor already on the books I am sure this goes well. Good intention no chance in hades of this actually working. But because it's a decent idea I have to give some credit here.
16. Expand red flag laws in states. We have already seen a couple cases of red flags gone wrong, and they want to double down. Talk about voter suppression because every red hat just got flagged. Bad bad bad. It takes away rights BEFORE guilt is proven.
17. Working with states to require licensing. This is the first step to federal licensing. Again, bad. It's not a right if you have to get permission.
18. Expanding background check funding. Seems like this has been covered before under 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. Not sure why it needed another point.
19. Domestic abuse and guns. Goes back to red flags. I know a guy who was actually the victim but the system just sees male and assumes he was guilty. That's a fun tag that has ruined his life. Good thing the government never gets thing wrong right.... another good idea but very bad in practice.

Oh I am not even half way done. I dont have more time for this. Maybe later.
 
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#15,193
#15,193
LouderVol said:
1. Gun manufacturers accountable. What manufacturer is held responsible for the criminal use of their product? Never heard of Ford getting sued when their is an accident, yet alone someone purposefully running someone over. Biden claims it's in every other industry. I dont know of one do you?
2. Weapons of war and large mags. Supreme court just ruled against bans on large mags. So he is proposing unconstitutional measures. And then weapons of war is a laughable term. A 9mm glock that cops carry is a weapon of war under his definition. Is that rationale or reasonable @luthervol?
3. Not letting manufacturers make "minor" changes that dont reduce lethality. Again another nonsensical phrase with no understanding behind it. This belief goes off the cosmetics. The difference between semiautomic and automatic is a huge functional change. And depending on whatever "reasonable and rational" non understanding of the word "difference" there is a huge step down in lethality. I laugh at the example given about three shot gun shells vs birds... where in the US is it legal to shoot children? It's not. More fear mongering bs built on a complete lack of intellectually honest discussion.
4. Ok here he brings up crime. And how registered weapons are rarely used. Using the governments own info the "assault weapon" of choice to use in crimes is a hand gun. So much so that rifles, which would be the assault weapons Biden doesnt understand, is going after 3% of firearms used in crimes. Handguns make up 71%. Rational or reasonable @luthervol to go after weapons you completely lied about the usage of?
6. Buy back of "assault weapons" Government is welcome to offer to do that. Not sure where they steal the money from. But offering buy back programs doesnt bother me. *note this isnt a mandatory buy back*. Not sure how many he thinks slipped thru but ok. @luthervol here is one for your boy.
7. Limiting purchases to one per month. This is a property right issue not a gun issue imo. They are just using the scary gun blanket to cover an unconstitutional expansion of power. And another one not based on any facts that this would work.
8. Expand background checks. Here is another half decent idea. Problem here is the Dems have fought this. Rs sought to expand the search to include non nationals, dems fought it(military base shooting in Florida). Dems also fought additional flagging of failed background checks by ICE. They only want to keep guns out of certain wrong hands. And I wonder how this ties in to felons getting to vote, will they be able to buy guns? Or are we only returning some rights and keeping felons as half citizens?
9. Online gun buying loophole. Lol. One this doesnt exist. Two good luck regulating that. This literally isnt going to stop anyone. But again this is a property crime violation. Unless the sale happens between people of different states they have non constitutional right to interfere.
10. Taking away guns from the senile. There are worse ideals here, my issue is there is no due process. This gives the government the ability to come in and steal lawful items from citizens. That's a whole host of unconstitutional. But again this relies on government agencies talking effectively to each other.
11. Hate crimes misdemeanors are now escalated to the level of felons and cant own guns. That's a dozy. Seems like a whole lot of extra power that goes outside the area of law. I would get it if this was limited to violent "hate" crimes. But this doesnt make that distinction.
12. Expanding the automatic pass from 3 days to 10 days. Just imagine having to wait to vote. Oh sorry the government didnt approve your right in time, better luck in four years. I love that he is just going to make the FBI more effective with pen here. Real fantasy land stuff with no way of saying how.
13. They are pretty vague on what happened here. Not sure why it needs to be a law about fugitives from the law not being able to buy guns. That should already be caught by the fbi in the universal background check. I guess this is a good one, but again without specifics there is a whole lot of wrong that could be hidden behind good intentions. Under this line of thinking are people in jail, not prison, or out on bail or just awaiting trial not given their other rights? If they are denied equally I dont see much of an issue.
14. End the online sale of guns, ammo, and kit.....good luck. And you cant buy guns online. Seems like a rational or reasonable person would know that.
15. Bahahahaha gun collection from those individuals who shouldnt legally have guns. I wish them luck, but holey crap that's a TON of manpower, logistics, and research. And with cases like Breona Taylor already on the books I am sure this goes well. Good intention no chance in hades of this actually working. But because it's a decent idea I have to give some credit here.
16. Expand red flag laws in states. We have already seen a couple cases of red flags gone wrong, and they want to double down. Talk about voter suppression because every red hat just got flagged. Bad bad bad. It takes away rights BEFORE guilt is proven.
17. Working with states to require licensing. This is the first step to federal licensing. Again, bad. It's not a right if you have to get permission.
18. Expanding background check funding. Seems like this has been covered before under 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. Not sure why it needed another point.
19. Domestic abuse and guns. Goes back to red flags. I know a guy who was actually the victim but the system just sees male and assumes he was guilty. That's a fun tag that has ruined his life. Good thing the government never gets thing wrong right.... another good idea but very bad in practice.

Oh I am not even half way done. I dont have more time for this. Maybe later.
Click to expand...
So far it's looking pretty good.
Number 7 is my favorite and one I've been suggesting for years.
 
#15,195
#15,195
luthervol said:
So far it's looking pretty good.
Number 7 is my favorite and one I've been suggesting for years.
Click to expand...
Good thing the Constitution and common sense doesn't agree with you.

You can't from a rational, logical or legal standpoint defend 90% of these suggestions.
 
#15,198
#15,198
1. Pointless, it's not the manufacturer's fault that an object is used illegally, this is just for trial lawyers association to attempt to make $. This doesn't exist in literally any industry.
2. "weapons of war" is subjective term, and this won't pass Supreme Court muster
3. word salad here, no practical value
4. again, not legal and pointless as it doesn't reduce firearms crime at all
6. lol no one will do this so another "feel-good" idea
7. Unconstitutional and pointless, and this is Luther's favorite? what purpose does it serve?
8. Ok this is the one that people actually semi-agree on, but Dems don't want to include former felons, illegal aliens, etc
9. This doesn't exist like Dems believe it does; They could be talking gun "parts" to assemble, but that isn't even possible to track
10. Ok, other than what is the due process here, this could be OK, but are we saying that after 70 no one should own guns? how about voting after 70?
11. This is stupid because "hate crime" has no true definition. So if Luther posts a tweet making a meme about transgender, should he not be able to own a gun?
12. Impossible and pointless
13. Redundant
14. More scare tactics not rooted in reality, this doesn't happen now
15. Good luck
16. Just like #10, more definition of the due process is needed
17. Unconstitutional and the normal states would refuse
18. Redundant again
19. Redundant again
 
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#15,199
#15,199
LouderVol said:
So you are completely fine with them basing rational and reasonable on documented lies? Doesnt say much about your cause.
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Not sure what the documented lies are......... but
14 million guns were "legally" purchased in 2019. I'm for lowering that number.
 
#15,200
#15,200
LouderVol said:
1. Gun manufacturers accountable. What manufacturer is held responsible for the criminal use of their product? Never heard of Ford getting sued when their is an accident, yet alone someone purposefully running someone over. Biden claims it's in every other industry. I dont know of one do you?
2. Weapons of war and large mags. Supreme court just ruled against bans on large mags. So he is proposing unconstitutional measures. And then weapons of war is a laughable term. A 9mm glock that cops carry is a weapon of war under his definition. Is that rationale or reasonable @luthervol?
3. Not letting manufacturers make "minor" changes that dont reduce lethality. Again another nonsensical phrase with no understanding behind it. This belief goes off the cosmetics. The difference between semiautomic and automatic is a huge functional change. And depending on whatever "reasonable and rational" non understanding of the word "difference" there is a huge step down in lethality. I laugh at the example given about three shot gun shells vs birds... where in the US is it legal to shoot children? It's not. More fear mongering bs built on a complete lack of intellectually honest discussion.
4. Ok here he brings up crime. And how registered weapons are rarely used. Using the governments own info the "assault weapon" of choice to use in crimes is a hand gun. So much so that rifles, which would be the assault weapons Biden doesnt understand, is going after 3% of firearms used in crimes. Handguns make up 71%. Rational or reasonable @luthervol to go after weapons you completely lied about the usage of?
6. Buy back of "assault weapons" Government is welcome to offer to do that. Not sure where they steal the money from. But offering buy back programs doesnt bother me. *note this isnt a mandatory buy back*. Not sure how many he thinks slipped thru but ok. @luthervol here is one for your boy.
7. Limiting purchases to one per month. This is a property right issue not a gun issue imo. They are just using the scary gun blanket to cover an unconstitutional expansion of power. And another one not based on any facts that this would work.
8. Expand background checks. Here is another half decent idea. Problem here is the Dems have fought this. Rs sought to expand the search to include non nationals, dems fought it(military base shooting in Florida). Dems also fought additional flagging of failed background checks by ICE. They only want to keep guns out of certain wrong hands. And I wonder how this ties in to felons getting to vote, will they be able to buy guns? Or are we only returning some rights and keeping felons as half citizens?
9. Online gun buying loophole. Lol. One this doesnt exist. Two good luck regulating that. This literally isnt going to stop anyone. But again this is a property crime violation. Unless the sale happens between people of different states they have non constitutional right to interfere.
10. Taking away guns from the senile. There are worse ideals here, my issue is there is no due process. This gives the government the ability to come in and steal lawful items from citizens. That's a whole host of unconstitutional. But again this relies on government agencies talking effectively to each other.
11. Hate crimes misdemeanors are now escalated to the level of felons and cant own guns. That's a dozy. Seems like a whole lot of extra power that goes outside the area of law. I would get it if this was limited to violent "hate" crimes. But this doesnt make that distinction.
12. Expanding the automatic pass from 3 days to 10 days. Just imagine having to wait to vote. Oh sorry the government didnt approve your right in time, better luck in four years. I love that he is just going to make the FBI more effective with pen here. Real fantasy land stuff with no way of saying how.
13. They are pretty vague on what happened here. Not sure why it needs to be a law about fugitives from the law not being able to buy guns. That should already be caught by the fbi in the universal background check. I guess this is a good one, but again without specifics there is a whole lot of wrong that could be hidden behind good intentions. Under this line of thinking are people in jail, not prison, or out on bail or just awaiting trial not given their other rights? If they are denied equally I dont see much of an issue.
14. End the online sale of guns, ammo, and kit.....good luck. And you cant buy guns online. Seems like a rational or reasonable person would know that.
15. Bahahahaha gun collection from those individuals who shouldnt legally have guns. I wish them luck, but holey crap that's a TON of manpower, logistics, and research. And with cases like Breona Taylor already on the books I am sure this goes well. Good intention no chance in hades of this actually working. But because it's a decent idea I have to give some credit here.
16. Expand red flag laws in states. We have already seen a couple cases of red flags gone wrong, and they want to double down. Talk about voter suppression because every red hat just got flagged. Bad bad bad. It takes away rights BEFORE guilt is proven.
17. Working with states to require licensing. This is the first step to federal licensing. Again, bad. It's not a right if you have to get permission.
18. Expanding background check funding. Seems like this has been covered before under 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. Not sure why it needed another point.
19. Domestic abuse and guns. Goes back to red flags. I know a guy who was actually the victim but the system just sees male and assumes he was guilty. That's a fun tag that has ruined his life. Good thing the government never gets thing wrong right.... another good idea but very bad in practice.

Oh I am not even half way done. I dont have more time for this. Maybe later.
Click to expand...

Two things.

1. Lots of these could only be proposed by people who know as much about firearms as the average grapefruit.
2. Lots of these could not stand up to even a modicum of Constitutional scrutiny.
 
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