George Floyd Protest/Riots

#6,852
#6,852
NashVol11 said:
Guy describing Floyd as “the crack head of 2020” wants to talk about nuance, OK
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I didn't say he was "the crack head of 2020". It was not a long post at all. I'm concerned you can't even quote it properly.

NashVol11 said:
Tell me more about how the Nazis “weren’t all of bad moral character” and should be on pedestals
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Did I say anything about the Nazis? No.

I don't need to bother explaining the point to you. Like I said, it is going to be lost on someone with such a warped and propogandized view of the bloodbath that is world history.

I know this is difficult for someone who believes political stance and group affiliation are the only notable characteristics a person can have, but it's actually possible for people to be multifaceted, support both awful things and great things in their lifetime, and distinguish them both as clearly as possible in the historical record.

Hell, you could even say that's a fundamental tenant of the country. The idea that we could build a country on the idea of the freedom of all people and also enslave people, while removing the evil and preserving the good through time. But again, I'm sure you are one of those people that believes our whole culture is evil dating back to the slaves in Athens.
 
#6,854
#6,854
Ten_Titans said:
I didn't say he was "the crack head of 2020". It was not a long post at all. I'm concerned you can't even quote it properly.
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I would walk it back too.

Did I say anything about the Nazis? No.

I don't need to bother explaining the point to you. Like I said, it is going to be lost on someone with such a warped and propogandized view of the bloodbath that is world history.

I know this is difficult for someone who believes political stance and group affiliation are the only notable characteristics a person can have, but it's actually possible for people to be multifaceted, support both awful things and great things in their lifetime, and distinguish them both as clearly as possible in the historical record.

Hell, you could even say that's a fundamental tenant of the country. The idea that we could build a country on the idea of the freedom of all people and also enslave people, while removing the evil and preserving the good through time. But again, I'm sure you are one of those people that believes our whole culture is evil dating back to the slaves in Athens.
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Same thing here. All that explaining and never addressed the point that you can make that exact same "multifaceted" argument about the Nazis, Ted Bundy or literally any other terrible person. Do you think we should build them statues as well?
 
#6,855
#6,855
Ten_Titans said:
Hell, you could even say that's a fundamental tenant of the country. The idea that we could build a country on the idea of the freedom of all people and also enslave people, while removing the evil and preserving the good through time. But again, I'm sure you are one of those people that believes our whole culture is evil dating back to the slaves in Athens.
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And don't try to lecture me on history with this "preserving the good" horsesh*t. Those statues don't serve that purpose in any way. It's not at all why they were built and you should know that already, Mr. Fundamental Tenant
 
#6,856
#6,856
volinbham said:
If it happened to me - yes because that would be all I could consider. If I have no knowledge of a person other than media reports then I'd want to know the sum of their character before my immediate reaction is to label them a scumbag. So if that woman or her family consider him a scumbag I understand it. For you or Justin to make the determination without knowing the man or the sum of his deeds and relying on media reports? Well I consider that wrong. In particular Justin seemed disgusted that the man received a large funeral - that seems pretty hateful to me and I want no part of it.
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Then you have no disagreement with the person posting the comment. Why act like he stated something so abhorrent?

I didn't make the determination, stating I don't know if Floyd was still a thug or not. Justin perhaps feels more strongly or empathizes more strongly with Floyd's prior victims. I do agree that Floyd is no martyr, and that it doesn't justify his death.

And, I think this is a core problem with BLM and the anti-police left. At the very start, I argued BLM was at least a voice speaking against the very real instances in which police abused powers or were fatally negligent, and that white people had grown numb to the fact this happens to whites (and other racial/ethnic groups), too and they need to wake up. Well, that didn't last too long as BLM became abusive and overreaching themselves, drunk on celebrity. Or perhaps as the FBI/Defense Dept. guy stated, BLM is a communist front group and the street protesters are largely pawns.

Some black people (or whites, etc.) should be shot. BLM is indiscriminate, and is a destructive group built upon a false narrative of "hands-up, don't shoot". Making a martyr of every black person killed has an eventual consequence; either society accepts that some people will and must be killed if we're to have rule of law, and that there is not a systemic race problem in enforcement, or society generally. And that each instance of police killing or force will be gauged on the individual merits.

Or else police can never use deadly force and we will be absent law, bouncing from one destructive rage fest to another. And labor under the ignorant falsehood that it's all systemic racism and white supremacy, and that all groups commit the same rate of crime and none should come into more frequent police contact than another.

I think there's one sustainable choice there.
 
#6,857
#6,857
NashVol11 said:
I still haven’t seen a good reason why his criminal record is relevant, this post included. No one is saying he was a perfect citizen, just that he shouldn’t have been killed.
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Nor does being killed make one a martyr. AGAIN...no one implied it justified his death, or minimized it.
 
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#6,858
#6,858
In Seattle the people leading the protest are asking the crowd to donate to a Cash App fund to buy their own police system. That should work out fine.
 
#6,859
#6,859
NCFisher said:
Nor does being killed make one a martyr. AGAIN...no one implied it justified his death, or minimized it.
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What does that even mean? Martyr is being killed for one's beliefs, which I haven't seen anyone argue. But based on what I think you mean, he's only a "martyr" to the extent he represents people mistreated by police, which he absolutely 100% was. So why would his record from 2007 be relevant?
 
#6,860
#6,860
One thing I'm curious about, and no, it doesn't justify how he was mistreated and killed, but did the report of him passing a counterfeit bill end up being true? It has no effect on what happened to him being wrong, I'm just curious is they had a legit reason to even be arresting him in the first place?
 
#6,862
#6,862
NashVol11 said:
“Hey this guy thinks human beings should be treated as property, but other than that he’s a pretty cool dude”
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That's generally how I feel about George Washington. Not even gonna lie. We know today that slavery is wrong, but back then, it was part of the establishment. People didn't put much thought into it. Even Africans thought nothing of enslaving fellow Africans, or selling them to slave traders. How people think and feel has evolved with time.
 
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#6,863
#6,863
Weezer said:
That's generally how I feel about George Washington. Not even gonna lie. We know today that slavery is wrong, but back then, it was part of the establishment. People didn't put much thought into it. Even Africans thought nothing of enslaving fellow Africans, or selling them to slave traders. How people think and feel has evolved with time.
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GW at least managed to avoid fighting a war over it
 
#6,864
#6,864
NashVol11 said:
GW at least managed to avoid fighting a war over it
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Lee didn't fight the war for slavery. He actually wanted the Union preserved. But when Virginia seceded, he felt his loyalty laid with his state. In a very strange way, though he owned a few slaves himself, Lee opposed slavery.
 
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#6,865
#6,865
NashVol11 said:
8 Can't Wait

8 examples, of many
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This is far more reasonable and well-defined than what I found from, of course, Ben & Jerry’s.

I was completely unfamiliar with the term “ force continuum” and think that “alternative exhaustion” will never be as clear-cut as one might like, but all of the demands seem completely achievable and I’d love it if Trump could strong-arm legislation like this and end what we’ve been watching for the last 8+ days.
 
#6,872
#6,872
C-south said:
Define “innocent”. There’s no doubt there’s been instances of excessive force but they aren’t targeting innocent people and of a specific race.
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Innocent as in innocence until proven guilty would be a start.

Mr. Floyd was suspected of passing a fake $20. The store owner said Mr. Floyd likely didn’t even know the bill was fake. We will never know.

Mrs. Taylor was asleep in her bed. Never accused of a crime.

Mr. Castile was accused of having a broken tail light. I guess you could argue that he was not innocent.

Mr. Crawford was accused of pointing a rifle at Walmart shoppers. It was a toy, and the video shows that he never pointed it at anyone.

Young Mr. Rice was accused of pointing a handgun at people. The gun was a toy, and the video showed that he wasn’t pointing it at anyone.

Mrs. Jefferson was standing in her bedroom when a cop shot through her window killing her. She was accused of no crime.
 
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#6,873
#6,873
Weezer said:
One thing I'm curious about, and no, it doesn't justify how he was mistreated and killed, but did the report of him passing a counterfeit bill end up being true? It has no effect on what happened to him being wrong, I'm just curious is they had a legit reason to even be arresting him in the first place?
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According to the store owner he did present a fake $20, but the store owner also stated that he didn’t think Mr. Floyd knew it was fake.
 
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