Latest Coronavirus - Yikes

#42,601
#42,601
Weezer said:
Random thought, and it will come across as cold and callous, but if you put science first, then perhaps we should let this virus run its course. Viruses and germs are about the only natural predators we have left. It's a form of population control. It's like conservation if you think about it. Darwinism.

Now, I don't really subscribe to that, but it's a different POV to rattle around inside your head and think about.
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All of that is true.... Mother Nature is a cold, heartless b****.....

Only the strong survive.

I think, though, we've reached a point in our existence where we can change that.
 
#42,602
#42,602
GhostVol said:
The difference between this coronavirus and the flu is the difference between "pandemic" and "endemic".

In the latter there are treatments and vaccinations available.

In the former, there's nothing but what we're having to do now..... as sucky as it may be.

Once there's a viable treatment and vaccine you've done all you can to prevent deaths. Any deaths at that point will still suck, but until then this is the only thing we can do to save lives.

Right now we're at a "pick your poison" stage. Bad stuff is going to happen either way but, of the options, death is the only irreversible one.
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How many suicides attributable to financial issues and isolation are acceptable to you?
 
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#42,603
#42,603
GhostVol said:
Yeah.... Kind of a "reductio ad absurdum" argument but what are the numbers that you find acceptable?

What percentage of the population are you willing to see die?

What is the number you, personally, are willing to sacrifice?

Dr. Oz seems to think 2-3% of the population is OK with him......
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These choices aren't required of Alcohol sales, or driver's licenses, or swimming pool installers. About 3k to 4k a week die from Medical and Pharmaceutical mistakes...where's our demand for the choice to be made in that.
Truth is, the virus will take who it takes. The shelter at home was not about saving lives from the virus. It was about saving lives by avoiding overwhelmed medical facilities.
 
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#42,604
#42,604
I don’t know about anyone’s else’s town / city but Norfolk isn’t staying in and I can see this going much longer here unless that Richard governor decides to crack down hard . Not even the bicycle cops here wear masks and people are out walking everywhere a few have masks and or gloves ..most don’t .
 
#42,608
#42,608
GhostVol said:
All of that is true.... Mother Nature is a cold, heartless b****.....

Only the strong survive.

I think, though, we've reached a point in our existence where we can change that.
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Which leads to the question, just because we can do something, does that mean we should do something?

Being honest, I like these types of discussions because they challenge beliefs and philosophies and make you think. It's not about whether you agree or not. It's simply examining other ways of thinking.
 
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#42,610
#42,610
GhostVol said:
Sorry..... Just noticed that I didn't answer your question (in bold above).

The answer to that question is up to you...... How many preventable deaths are acceptable?
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How many preventable job losses are acceptable to you?

You are screwing 20% to maybe save .2%?

Theres definitely a line, but we are several orders of magnitude on the wrong side of it.
 
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#42,611
#42,611
OHvol40 said:
Here is another one that isn’t really popular but addresses a lot of problems (food, water, available space, infectious diseases, pollution, poverty, etc) that nobody really talks about:

In 2020 it’s irresponsible to have more kids than your own replacement value.
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I thought LBJ fixed all of that, with his Great society programs .
 
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#42,614
#42,614
GhostVol said:
The difference between this coronavirus and the flu is the difference between "pandemic" and "endemic".

In the latter there are treatments and vaccinations available.

In the former, there's nothing but what we're having to do now..... as sucky as it may be.

Once there's a viable treatment and vaccine you've done all you can to prevent deaths. Any deaths at that point will still suck, but until then this is the only thing we can do to save lives.

Right now we're at a "pick your poison" stage. Bad stuff is going to happen either way but, of the options, death is the only irreversible one.
Click to expand...

Let’s examine two scenarios, one hypothetical and one example from history:

1) a nasty flu season where the vaccination missed most of the active strains

We are realistically looking at 50-60k deaths. Do we shut the economy down to avoid the loss of life?

As a side note, remember that the flu vaccine is not mandatory so you really haven’t done all you can.

Who gets to make the call here?

2) HIV

It took years to understand this disease and it’s method of transmission. It took years to develop a reliable test for it.

Without the benefit of hindsight...would the country be shut down for years?

If not, what would be the rationale not to do it?
 
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#42,615
#42,615
Orangeburst said:
Yea I remember us talking about it as I lived in Athens and Madison 20 years ago and had a territory in NA.
Some of the stories I heard as a kid from family members even were rather shocking. My mom saw Kkk cross burnings as a kid. And she loves all people and just bought her black optometrist nurse, who other than kind words, a rather expensive Chanel gift along with volunteerism in the black school community. **** I could go on and on.
I myself have commented on giving a homeless young black $200 on a whim just because I wanted to see him get back on his feet. Or all the other charities I have given to without regard to color. Yet I and my southern heritage are racist. Well they can FO.
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We gave a waitress at a local restaurant a car last year. Wasn't worth much to me as it was taking up driveway space. It was a means of freedom for her. She calls me brother, and my wife big sister....that's not racially possible.
 
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#42,617
#42,617
DC_Vol said:
So millions of other people should lose their jobs via mandatory shut downs?
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And those million people who aren’t producing anything means there are shortages, which drive up prices which make those without job further behind...circle circle circle...hence we need to get back to work
 
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#42,618
#42,618
82_VOL_83 said:
We gave a waitress at a local restaurant a car last year. Wasn't worth much to me as it was taking up driveway space. It was a means of freedom for her. She calls me brother, and my wife big sister....that's not racially possible.
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Good for you man. Love wins
 
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#42,619
#42,619
0nelilreb said:
I don’t know about anyone’s else’s town / city but Norfolk isn’t staying in and I can see this going much longer here unless that Richard governor decides to crack down hard . Not even the bicycle cops here wear masks and people are out walking everywhere a few have masks and or gloves ..most don’t .
Click to expand...

Your area is going to develop herd immunity much quicker than a lot of areas and it’s probably going to end sooner. I would not be too surprised if you did the antibody test in Norfolk like they did in that town in Mass you would find a similar % of those who test positive for antibodies but had zero symptoms.
 
#42,620
#42,620
Smokey'sHandler said:
I’m down to discuss. The one thing I have been struggling with is what are we preventing right now locking down in TN? The purpose of the lockdowns were to flatten the curve so our medical system wouldn’t be overwhelmed and people die because they did not have access to care.

As I understand it we as a state were not trending towards our medical system being overwhelmed. Heck there have been thousands of medical employees being laid off across the state because they quit doing elective surgeries, etc. to have open capacity and they didn’t fill. So by locking down did we save lives? In my mind we did not.

So what is the risk with opening back up? This thing is still going to be out there and it is going to stay out there until we develop herd immunity which is more than likely going to happen before a vaccine is developed.

What you need to do is understand who are the most vulnerable and how do you try to protect them before a vaccine is created. For the rest let them get back to their lives. Are people going to die? Yes but people die from stuff every day. Thousands die every year from the flu even though we have a flu shot. Are we going to blame the medical community and the government for letting us out with this potential killer virus out there? No. We accept that there is a risk and we go about our way.

This will turn into the same. You can’t save everyone unfortunately just like we can’t save everyone from every unfortunate thing that takes lives every single day.

This is a morbid way of looking at things but we cannot hide in fear from it just like we don’t hide in fear from a multitude of things.
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See the bold...... We happen to agree.

You can't protect everyone from everything.

But what else can you do with this? Are you OK with being a spreader? Even knowing that your spreading of the virus might kill someone else?

Once this is endemic you can't do anything else. Once you've done all you can you have to accept what happens. But until then..... this is what you can do. Is staying home such a huge burden? You may have saved a life. Or not. Who knows? But are you willing to take that chance?

It keeps coming back to the same question..... How many people are you willing to see die?
 
#42,621
#42,621
GhostVol said:
Sorry..... Just noticed that I didn't answer your question (in bold above).

The answer to that question is up to you...... How many preventable deaths are acceptable?
Click to expand...

That’s the point I’m making. It’s arbitrary. In this case we’re wrecking an economy for what is going to amount to a bad flu season.

We take calculated risks all the time. For example, we drive to get around (40k deaths per year). You could probably easily rattle off 5 other things.

We should be letting people make their own calculated choices.

This shutdown thing is a dangerous path to walk down precisely because of the arbitrary nature of the decision. Worse, the information being used to justify the decision was not good.
 
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#42,622
#42,622
GhostVol said:
See the bold...... We happen to agree.

You can't protect everyone from everything.

But what else can you do with this? Are you OK with being a spreader? Even knowing that your spreading of the virus might kill someone else?

Once this is endemic you can't do anything else. Once you've done all you can you have to accept what happens. But until then..... this is what you can do. Is staying home such a huge burden? You may have saved a life. Or not. Who knows? But are you willing to take that chance?

It keeps coming back to the same question..... How many people are you willing to see die?
Click to expand...

How many is acceptable each year with influenza? We don’t hardly blink an eye and that’s with the flu shots . 🤷‍♂️
 
#42,624
#42,624
McDad said:
These choices aren't required of Alcohol sales, or driver's licenses, or swimming pool installers. About 3k to 4k a week die from Medical and Pharmaceutical mistakes...where's our demand for the choice to be made in that.
Truth is, the virus will take who it takes. The shelter at home was not about saving lives from the virus. It was about saving lives by avoiding overwhelmed medical facilities.
Click to expand...

Seriously? It's obvious you don't understand disease vectors.

I've read your posts before but I've lost a lot of respect for you over this.......
 
#42,625
#42,625
GhostVol said:
See the bold...... We happen to agree.

You can't protect everyone from everything.

But what else can you do with this? Are you OK with being a spreader? Even knowing that your spreading of the virus might kill someone else?

Once this is endemic you can't do anything else. Once you've done all you can you have to accept what happens. But until then..... this is what you can do. Is staying home such a huge burden? You may have saved a life. Or not. Who knows? But are you willing to take that chance?

It keeps coming back to the same question..... How many people are you willing to see die?
Click to expand...

It doesn't come back to that question. I answered why in a previous post.
 
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