2020 vs. 2016

[BigOrangeAl 1979]

2016 was a National Championship roster. A somewhat decent coach wins no less than 11 games with that team

It wasn’t a national championship roster but it was a East division championship one. Butch should’ve been immediately fired after the Vandy loss at the end of that season. We should’ve won the East in 15 and 16

 

[BigOrangeAl 1979]

I agree with most of the OP's points, but the real difference between '16 and '20 is the competition. Jones was coach during a pretty significant lull in the SEC East. Georgia and Florida are top 10 programs now and the mid-tier teams have been giving us problems... whether that's due to our own talent or them getting better, I don't know, but it's going to be difficult to knock off either Florida or Georgia right now. Heck, I wouldn't be entirely disappointed if we came in 3rd in the east again. We should at least have that baseline established.

Unfortunately I agree it’s a two team race in the East for the foreseeable future we are locked in at third which is better than where we were for most of the 2010 decade.

 

[chrismc1000]

I understand football enough to know he was soooo awesome as a RB that he transferred to Baylor to become a WR.

Guess you missed the part where he said he was tired of getting best up and wanted a long NFL career so he talked to bitch Jones and Jones shot him down so he left for Baylor...

 

[The Original Fade]

Guess you missed the part where he said he was tired of getting best up and wanted a long NFL career so he talked to bitch Jones and Jones shot him down so he left for Baylor...

According to Hurd

 

[sjt18]

By the way, fans like myself who banged on Hurd for quitting we’re not defending Butch. That’s a straw man argument. My criticism of Hurd was that he quit while the rest of his teammates fought on. He quit on his teammates, not Butch.

BS. You don't know why he left the team. It ALL related to Jones and his mismanagement of Hurd and other players. Do you remember the 2014 Iowa game? They gave Hurd some plays out of the I and let him run downhill. We saw what he could be. Jones apparently committed to making those types of runs a permanent part of the O. Instead... well I think you know the "instead".

Hurd did let his attitude get off without finding a better way to deal with it. But Jones was using him up.

 

[sjt18]

So why did no other school pick him up as a RB?

He specifically did not want to be a RB. Virtually ANY program would have taken him as a RB. Baylor was one of the few who were willing to take a risk on him as a WR.

Why did he convert to a position he’s never played before if he was so good at RB?

If you don't think Hurd was a really, really good RB then I don't know how to help you. He got most of what he got in a system that didn't align with his best assets while playing behind very poor OL's.

Had he stayed, Hurd would have become UT's all time leading rusher.... possibly without playing his Sr year. He was that good.

You're trying to make a Butch Jones victim a villain.

 

[BreatheUT]

Malone is better than anyone on the roster. Jennings was good at that point. Overall though, this WR group has better talent.

I'd love to see Hurd behind this OL.

You mean instead of those weak OLs Butch fielded. The one that had a 260lb freshman that started against Alabama that could've ended both players playing careers with the starting line we fielded that day was so bad. The same 260lb lineman that could barely crack the lineup recently at 300lb and is transferring for playing time. Hurd was normally left to be the bruiser and take most of the punishment.

 

[BreatheUT]

BS. You don't know why he left the team. It ALL related to Jones and his mismanagement of Hurd and other players. Do you remember the 2014 Iowa game? They gave Hurd some plays out of the I and let him run downhill. We saw what he could be. Jones apparently committed to making those types of runs a permanent part of the O. Instead... well I think you know the "instead".

Hurd did let his attitude get off without finding a better way to deal with it. But Jones was using him up.

You have to remember that same poster has been a constant bash fest against Hurd. You would think he caught his daughter showing with Hurd posters in the bathroom.

 

[hndog609]

BS. You don't know why he left the team. It ALL related to Jones and his mismanagement of Hurd and other players. Do you remember the 2014 Iowa game? They gave Hurd some plays out of the I and let him run downhill. We saw what he could be. Jones apparently committed to making those types of runs a permanent part of the O. Instead... well I think you know the "instead".

Hurd did let his attitude get off without finding a better way to deal with it. But Jones was using him up.

He had carries at Baylor, who ran the I, and he averaged 4.4ypc.

IMO a very strong argument could be made the only reason Hurd was near the rushing title was at the expense of having a better RB not splitting the reps he should have been getting, by which of course I mean Kamara.

I'm not one of those willing to just throw Hurd's ability under the bus but I it wasn't long before I'd resigned myself to the fact he wasn't going to be anywhere near the top of the most talented backs we've had here. To his credit I think his switch to WR was the right move.

 

[BreatheUT]

He had carries at Baylor, who ran the I, and he averaged 4.4ypc.

IMO a very strong argument could be made the only reason Hurd was near the rushing title was at the expense of having a better RB not splitting the reps he should have been getting, by which of course I mean Kamara.

I'm not one of those willing to just throw Hurd's ability under the bus but I it wasn't long before I'd resigned myself to the fact he wasn't going to be anywhere near the top of the most talented backs we've had here. To his credit I think his switch to WR was the right move.

William Howard averaged 4.3 ypc at UT. Greg Amsler and Roland Poles averaged less than 4 ypc as guys with comparable size. Ypc is not the only barometer of a player when you consider other factors.

 

[gunner]

With zero sports on I have had to resort to the DVR which is nothing but UT football for the last 5 years. After watching all of our games from this past year I decided to go back and watch the 2016 season and what I am seeing is quite interesting. Here’s some thoughts:

1.) 2016 was an extremely talented team that came in with high expectations. 2020 may not have the high profile talent at the skill positions but I believe will be better talented all around and will outperform 2016.

2.) I didn’t realize how bad our defense was in 2016. We were bad all around but were truly horrid in the secondary and dear lord could we not tackle. The only player I would trade for on defense on that team is Derek Barnett.

3.) Even without an elite pass rusher like DB we will have a better overall D-Line, we have better linebackers and as for the secondary it’s no question.

4.) We will literally have an NFL player at every position on the O-Line in 2020. Jashon Robertson was the only O-Lineman that was even close to being NFL level in 2016. It would’ve been crazy to see what Jalen Hurd and Alvin Kamara would’ve been behind the 2020 O-Line.

5.) We are obviously lacking at the skill positions vs. 2016. I believe we have a similar talent level player to AK in Eric Gray. We do not have a bruiser like Hurd though it would be very nice to have a similar player to that this season.

6.) Josh Palmer is a better receiver than Josh Malone. Outside of that we will have an obvious question mark at the receiver position in 2020 vs. 2016. We were much better at the TE position in 2016 as well.

7.) Our offense may be lacking at the skill positions vs 2016 but we have a significantly better O-Line which will have us in position to be productive. The good thing the offense has going for them this year is that we will have a much better defense. The pressure should not be there for us to keep up with the other team as much.

2020 may not have the flash that 2016 had but the potential is there for them to be better. It has the potential to be a 9 win regular season.

9 wins are extremely unlikely with JG at QB.

If Mauer is the starter and he can stay healthy, nine wins is certainly obtainable.

 

[Smokey'sHandler]

9 wins are extremely unlikely with JG at QB.

If Mauer is the starter and he can stay healthy, nine wins is certainly obtainable.

I could very well be wrong on this but if JG progresses in his 2nd year in Chaney's system and plays just a tad better than he did last year we should be a 9 win team including a bowl win.

If Maurer plays and progresses the same as JG we will be a 7-8 win team. If he improves dramatically and makes significantly better decisions you never know we could be a 9-10 win ball club.

Maurer's stellar 46.2% completion percentage and 2.5 INT to TD ratio from last year ain't gonna get us anywhere. He threw more INTs in the endzone than he threw TDs on the season.

 

[sjt18]

He had carries at Baylor, who ran the I, and he averaged 4.4ypc.

IMO a very strong argument could be made the only reason Hurd was near the rushing title was at the expense of having a better RB not splitting the reps he should have been getting, by which of course I mean Kamara.

I'm not one of those willing to just throw Hurd's ability under the bus but I it wasn't long before I'd resigned myself to the fact he wasn't going to be anywhere near the top of the most talented backs we've had here. To his credit I think his switch to WR was the right move.

Could not disagree with you more. It is likely that a good number 2 would have served to keep Hurd healthy. But few #2 backs could have been effective behind the OL Jones "built". I think some of you severely underestimate how bad Jones' system and philosophy of offense was... and how that related directly to having weak OL's.

Hurd's switch to WR is a testimony to just how extraordinary he was as an athlete.

 

[sjt18]

I could very well be wrong on this but if JG progresses in his 2nd year in Chaney's system and plays just a tad better than he did last year we should be a 9 win team including a bowl win.

What makes that improvement a reasonable expectation? The things that hurt him haven't been system related. They're related to his inability to quickly process reads and to anticipate throws. He improved some things last year. Yet his inability to anticipate throws was the primary reason UT stank in the red zone. That was never MORE on display than the Indiana game. He was just "late" over and over. That wasn't a new thing.

He DID improve in his use of the middle of the field but almost exclusively on longer developing plays. You still didn't see him feel pressure and hit a spot with the ball.

Those appear to be innate weaknesses. Different coaches have worked with him on them for 4 years. I am not optimistic at all that he's going to flip a switch this fall. If he is the starter, those weaknesses will cost UT winnable games.

If Maurer plays and progresses the same as JG we will be a 7-8 win team. If he improves dramatically and makes significantly better decisions you never know we could be a 9-10 win ball club.

First, he is on a different part of the learning curve than JG so if he progresses "the same"... then he would have failed to improve anywhere close to enough to be the starter. But... again... he's on the steep portion of the learning curve while JG has pretty much plateaued.

His decision making was spotty. He is talented and aggressive. Unlike JG, he anticipates and confidently delivers to a spot. He quickly makes decisions. His problem is that he was wrong too often.

Of the two problems... you want Maurer's problems over JG's. Maurer's are coachable. JG's appear to be innate talent related.

Maurer's stellar 46.2% completion percentage and 2.5 INT to TD ratio from last year ain't gonna get us anywhere. He threw more INTs in the endzone than he threw TDs on the season.

Stats without context are how you end up bragging about the "stats" of a QB who was so ineffective the program lost 8 games for the first time in its history.

Take Maurer's "trash time" out... and he looks a lot better. Take the JJ hand off on a pass perfectly thrown out... and the INT's aren't quite the same problem.

Maurer made some really bad decisions. One of his INT's vs MSU could have been a TD had JJ timed his jump right. If you don't believe me go back and look. But it was STILL a bad decision by Maurer. Both DB's dropped off on JJ. He had Callaway open underneath on what should have been an easy score.

He was a Freshman. He played with moxie and confidence unlike JG who was afraid and hesitant as a RS Fr... still made plenty of mistakes... and still struggles to "pull the trigger" at times.

PS- remember you ARE comparing a RS Jr to a true Fr that NO ONE thought was really ready to play. Maurer only played because JG was so bad.... keep that in mind going forward too considering how JG played the last two games.

 

[hndog609]

Could not disagree with you more. It is likely that a good number 2 would have served to keep Hurd healthy. But few #2 backs could have been effective behind the OL Jones "built". I think some of you severely underestimate how bad Jones' system and philosophy of offense was... and how that related directly to having weak OL's.

Hurd's switch to WR is a testimony to just how extraordinary he was as an athlete.

Kamara averaged 6.2ypc behind the same line and, again, Hurd ran the ball at Baylor and averaged basically the same ypc as he did here.

Again, I'm not one of the "haters" but no amount of honest effort on my part has ever allowed me to view him as a special RB nor an "extraordinary athlete". (See pro day) To be considered for such descriptors he'd have to rank among prior backs like Webb, Lewis, Garner, Henry, Stewart, etc. or Kamara for that matter. IMHO he's not even within shouting distance of those guys as a true RB.

A very versatile athlete? I'd agree there. He was a perfectly serviceable big back with, obviously, great hands. I'm genuinely curious to see what his WR career will look like and I think his position switch was a wise one.

 

[The Original Fade]

He specifically did not want to be a RB. Virtually ANY program would have taken him as a RB. Baylor was one of the few who were willing to take a risk on him as a WR.


If you don't think Hurd was a really, really good RB then I don't know how to help you. He got most of what he got in a system that didn't align with his best assets while playing behind very poor OL's.

Had he stayed, Hurd would have become UT's all time leading rusher.... possibly without playing his Sr year. He was that good.

You're trying to make a Butch Jones victim a villain.

If Hurd’s greatest desire was to make it to the NFL, doesn’t remaining a RB make more sense if he’s as awesome as you think he is? If it was truly his decision as you say to transition to WR, then I think he probably believed his true NFL potential was at WR, mainly because he wasn’t that productive or explosive at RB. Think about this - in his entire career running the ball at UT, Hurd never had a run of 50 yards or more. Gray had 2 just against Vandy last year. Hurd was slow, could not change direction very well, and did not have very good vision. He was a physical, tough runner. I will give him that. But I still don’t think he was very good. Serviceable? Yes. Great or elite? Heck no.
Edit: He was also very good catching the ball out of the backfield which makes sense given the argument

 

[sjt18]

If Hurd’s greatest desire was to make it to the NFL, doesn’t remaining a RB make more sense if he’s as awesome as you think he is?

He was a very good RB. He could play in the NFL as a RB... and might yet. But his decisions are his to make and he apparently had had enough of being beaten up.

If it was truly his decision as you say to transition to WR, then I think he probably believed his true NFL potential was at WR, mainly because he wasn’t that productive or explosive at RB.

Nope. Not necessarily. He was plenty productive and explosive... especially for a guy his size.

Think about this - in his entire career running the ball at UT, Hurd never had a run of 50 yards or more.

Every OL he played behind stank. They were all a product of Jones' ideas about offense and how to develop OL's. Even after hiring a "ball coach"... UT is just now overcoming the ridiculous OL development notions of Jones. His conditioning and physical development ideas were a huge part of why UT could never attain a stable, healthy OL starting 5.

Gray had 2 just against Vandy last year.

He ran through gaping holes and has good speed. I don't think he was touched on either play. I hope you aren't so deluded by your anti-Hurd bias that you don't think he would have scored on those two plays against that defense.

Hurd was slow, could not change direction very well, and did not have very good vision.

Did you even watch him play? I'm serious. He was VERY fast and found creases. He had good change of direction and quickness for his size... and could run through tackles without losing momentum.

How many "slow" guys get drafted to play WR in the NFL in spite of not having polished WR skills?

He was a physical, tough runner. I will give him that. But I still don’t think he was very good. Serviceable? Yes. Great or elite? Heck no.
Edit: He was also very good catching the ball out of the backfield which makes sense given the argument

You seriously need to go back and watch the guy play... and drop your bias before you do.

Again, he was one of Jones' many victims... not the no-talent bum you're trying to make of him.

 

[k-town_king]

9 wins are extremely unlikely with JG at QB.

If Mauer is the starter and he can stay healthy, nine wins is certainly obtainable.

LMAO. The Covid must be frying people's brains.

We won 8 with JG last year. We were two defensive breakdowns away from 10 wins.


Maurer was much worse. Why would playing the worse guy who had to be pulled for JG to save a few wins make us win more games?

Your math doesn't add up.

 

[The Original Fade]

He was a very good RB. He could play in the NFL as a RB... and might yet. But his decisions are his to make and he apparently had had enough of being beaten up.

Nope. Not necessarily. He was plenty productive and explosive... especially for a guy his size.

Every OL he played behind stank. They were all a product of Jones' ideas about offense and how to develop OL's. Even after hiring a "ball coach"... UT is just now overcoming the ridiculous OL development notions of Jones. His conditioning and physical development ideas were a huge part of why UT could never attain a stable, healthy OL starting 5.

He ran through gaping holes and has good speed. I don't think he was touched on either play. I hope you aren't so deluded by your anti-Hurd bias that you don't think he would have scored on those two plays against that defense. Did you even watch him play? I'm serious. He was VERY fast and found creases. He had good change of direction and quickness for his size... and could run through tackles without losing momentum.

How many "slow" guys get drafted to play WR in the NFL in spite of not having polished WR skills?

You seriously need to go back and watch the guy play... and drop your bias before you do.

Again, he was one of Jones' many victims... not the no-talent bum you're trying to make of him.

Kamara ran behind the same line and average 6.2 yards per carry. Hurd’s was 4.5, almost 2 full yards lower per rush than Kamara behind the same line. Stop blaming everything on the Oline. Kamara is GREAT, Hurd is ok.

 

[sjt18]

Kamara ran behind the same line and average 6.2 yards per carry. Hurd’s was 4.5, almost 2 full yards lower per rush than Kamara behind the same line. Stop blaming everything on the Oline. Kamara is GREAT, Hurd is ok.

Two different types of RB's. Kamara was all but tailor made for a spread O.

Not blaming the OL. They did what they were asked to do. Blaming Jones... nice try at deflection though.

 

[The Original Fade]

Two different types of RB's. Kamara was all but tailor made for a spread O.

Not blaming the OL. They did what they were asked to do. Blaming Jones... nice try at deflection though.

Not deflecting at all. Simply comparing 2 guys who played the same position in the same offense. Jones was a tool - we all can agree on that. But blaming him for Hurd’s shortcomings doesn’t hold up

 

[RDU VOL#14]

Both Jones and Hurd were in a toxic marriage. One was too dumb/stubborn to listen and see what he had , the other had a $hitty attitude who’s image was also tarnished by the fact that his family members were complete morons, holding Facebook live sessions, getting arrested at games and such. They both deserve blame.

Imagine if we had utilized Hurd in the passing game and Kamara and Kelly as the ball carriers. Hurd could’ve been a great H-Back/Te/Wideout. Think on the field Aaron Hernandez, not as serial killer Aaron Hernandez.

 

[pimo1]

2016 was a National Championship roster. A somewhat decent coach wins no less than 11 games with that team

please sir PUFF PUFF PASS you have obviously missed the passing part quite a few times.

 

[hndog609]

Both Jones and Hurd were in a toxic marriage. One was too dumb/stubborn to listen and see what he had , the other had a $hitty attitude who’s image was also tarnished by the fact that his family members were complete morons, holding Facebook live sessions, getting arrested at games and such. They both deserve blame.

Imagine if we had utilized Hurd in the passing game and Kamara and Kelly as the ball carriers. Hurd could’ve been a great H-Back/Te/Wideout. Think on the field Aaron Hernandez, not as serial killer Aaron Hernandez.

I would have loved to have seen a true rotation with Hurd and Kamara (something along the lines of what the Saints did with Kamara and Ingram) with multiple packages where both could be in. While I see Kamara as the superior RB both could run and both are superior receivers out of the backfield or shifted out. Hurd was also a very good blocker and could be kept in to do that or take a draw or run a route. Kamara isn't as good a blocker but is a much more dynamic runner and arguably every bit as good a receiver as Hurd. (Kamara's caught 162p for over 1200 yards the past two seasons)

 

[gisman]

So why did no other school pick him up as a RB? Why did he convert to a position he’s never played before if he was so good at RB?

The guy was a very good and tough football player. He came in as a RB and played that position with effort and toughness and was a work horse. He got ridden into the ground. He was a good enough football player to switch positions and still end up a high draft pick. He got hit in the backfield on almost every carry.