Recruiting Forum Football Talk II

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Always admired Frederick Douglass and have no doubt that's how he felt. Slavery was an evil institution. But there's more to the story than slavery. The North wasn't fighting to end slavery. History says they were fighting to preserve the Union. But in doing so they were basically saying the states were not free and were subject to the federal government. JMO, but from everything I've read, that was not the intentions of the FFs. But for Douglass, who was born a slave, I completely understand why he felt the way he did. He had experienced that evil institution first hand. But I also think that narrowed his focus to where he did not see the entire significance of what the Civil War was about. It wasn't just about one thing. But making it about one thing makes it easier to villainize the South. And as they say, history is written by the victors.

Growing up in the South in the 60's and being a bit of a military history buff, enhanced from going to HS at the now defunct Castle Heights Military Academy (Tennessee at one time had 10-12 military boarding schools, the anti-military aftermath of the Vietnam War killed them all), I always reveled in the South's resistance against superior military numbers and the skills of some of the Southern generals. To justify that, I agreed with the contention that it was a state's rights war triggered by economic issues. Otherwise, you're supporting the position that human beings can own, beat and even murder other human beings with impunity. If you believe that then there's not much humanity in you.

And then I read a book written by the editor of the Richmond Dispatch in 1866 (Edward Pollard) called the Southern History of the Civil War. It even contains editorials he wrote leading up to the war. The war from the Virginia perspective was all about the preservation of slavery. They wanted to maintain their cheap workforce and more importantly they were obsessed with the potential upheaval resulting from hundreds of thousands of former slaves being freed and who were going to be very angry over their prior imprisonment and treatment. He never writes about states rights, it's all about preservation of slavery.

Then the effect on me of taking the oath to preserve and protect the Constitution at my commissioning was very strong and for most of my adult life I've believed any Southern General who left active service to fight for the South should have been hung for treason after the War. There's no provision in the Constitution for a state to secede (there are some scholars who argue Texas could because it was an independent nation that merged into the US). So what the South did was mount a rebellion against the legitimate government of the US. The military and political leaders of that rebellion should have been hanged.

I know this is going to really light off some of you, so bring it on.
 
I have randomly played good music (plethora of artist) since he was a baby. Actually, yesterday, I walked in handed him my phone and told him to play the song I had on it.

He really liked it....it was Elvis Presley "King Creole".

I asked him a little while ago why he was listening to that song. He was actually looking for some of the music I had been listening to earlier. I didn't even know he was listening, so I went back through the songs I had been listening to until I found the one he was looking for (he didn't know the name of the song).

It was Kris Kristofferson "Sunday Morning Coming Down".

I Wanna kill the little sucker somedays, then days like today he totally amazes me.

It's guitar and real instruments with my kids.Their tastes are eclectic but that sound is always there.

If they play any "pop", it'll be Prince or something similar, even Beastie Boys or Run DMC lol.
Above 95% rock tho, mostly classic.
Probably from letting them play around with my guitar since they were toddlers. If that sound isn't in a song, they're just not interested.

And I'm one happy dad.
 
Growing up in the South in the 60's and being a bit of a military history buff, enhanced from going to HS at the now defunct Castle Heights Military Academy (Tennessee at one time had 10-12 military boarding schools, the anti-military aftermath of the Vietnam War killed them all), I always reveled in the South's resistance against superior military numbers and the skills of some of the Southern generals. To justify that, I agreed with the contention that it was a state's rights war triggered by economic issues. Otherwise, you're supporting the position that human beings can own, beat and even murder other human beings with impunity. If you believe that then there's not much humanity in you.

And then I read a book written by the editor of the Richmond Dispatch in 1866 (Edward Pollard) called the Southern History of the Civil War. It even contains editorials he wrote leading up to the war. The war from the Virginia perspective was all about the preservation of slavery. They wanted to maintain their cheap workforce and more importantly they were obsessed with the potential upheaval resulting from hundreds of thousands of former slaves being freed and who were going to be very angry over their prior imprisonment and treatment. He never writes about states rights, it's all about preservation of slavery.

Then the effect on me of taking the oath to preserve and protect the Constitution at my commissioning was very strong and for most of my adult life I've believed any Southern General who left active service to fight for the South should have been hung for treason after the War. There's no provision in the Constitution for a state to secede (there are some scholars who argue Texas could because it was an independent nation that merged into the US). So what the South did was mount a rebellion against the legitimate government of the US. The military and political leaders of that rebellion should have been hanged.

I know this is going to really light off some of you, so bring it on.

There were a lot of people (especially southern Unionists) that wanted to see the leaders of the Confederacy executed. But there was a also a real fear that doing so would re-ignite the South’s will to fight, and US political and military leadership did not want to combat an interminable guerrilla resistance during its occupation of the former Confederacy.

Rightly or wrongly, I think pragmatism won out over principle in that instance.
 
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My word... after watching that full game I have hope for JG.

I never thought Tee was that good of a quarterback but I was young then and always thought he wasn't that good because I was young and dumb.

Good lord he was hard to watch in this game.

Imagine a lot of these old, classic games having a game thread today. It would be interesting to say the least.

The last time I watched the 1997 SEC Championship game I remember how bad the team looked to me in spots, but they pulled it out.

So many great games are born out of a mistake-filled three quarters that gets righted by your team in the fourth. 1998 Arkansas was definitely one of those. Newly minted number one Tennessee couldn't get out of its own way. They rallied and fell short. Until one play...

Football games are never perfect. If they were, they'd get pretty boring.
 
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Number of factors. No global scale military. Strong sentiment against foreign wars. Folks point to the Lusitania, but we entered two years after a UBoat hit it. In my opinion, folks saw that Russia was falling apart, and we knew that might tip the scales in the war. We entered a few months before the Russian revolution. Germany aided the revolution by sending Lenin home. Russia leaves, and Germany expects the balance to tip in their favor, but success of revolution in Russia inspires socialists/Marxists/Communists across Europe. Combined with the fact that the US also entered the chat, the Germans don’t see the boost they hoped for. Also, both sides were exhausted. Wanted to find an end to the war.

US impact was more important post war. Wilson planted the seeds for WWII and numerous Mideast and Balkan conflicts in the 20th century.
I'm impressed
 
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It's a hard row to hoe without friends in the world. I guess saving millions of people from the same neverending nightmare fate as the North Korean people is not worth it? I think there are a lot of heroes that would feel differently.

We did a great thing in Korea. I will not insult the sacrifice of the men and women that gave their lives protecting that people by saying it was not worth it.

I know my grandfather used to tell me that he wished he could gave gone and helped.
Last thing I will say about it, as my father fought in Korea and Vietnam and he has plenty of tales of both, is that both were little more than remnants of colonialism, sticking our nose in where did not belong to prop up "freedom" against the evil "communism." Thousands and thousands of sons were drafted and died for that. Looking back on it now, does it matter that Vietnam is communist now? That there is still a 38th parallel? No. It does not. It was a shameful waste of American lives and those who sent our boys over there should have been brought up on war crimes. I'm glad that you can kill innocent people and our soldiers to help out "friends." I think it is one of the biggest blights on our history as a country myself and we continue to do it in the middle east. It's a damn shame.
 
Always admired Frederick Douglass and have no doubt that's how he felt. Slavery was an evil institution. But there's more to the story than slavery. The North wasn't fighting to end slavery. History says they were fighting to preserve the Union. But in doing so they were basically saying the states were not free and were subject to the federal government. JMO, but from everything I've read, that was not the intentions of the FFs. But for Douglass, who was born a slave, I completely understand why he felt the way he did. He had experienced that evil institution first hand. But I also think that narrowed his focus to where he did not see the entire significance of what the Civil War was about. It wasn't just about one thing. But making it about one thing makes it easier to villainize the South. And as they say, history is written by the victors.

As I noted a couple of days ago, it is impossible to know all the reasons why Southerners seceded. The Deep South states, who were more heavily invested in cash crops at the time - cotton, tobacco, rice, and sugar cane - were therefore more heavily invested in slavery, and slavery had also become a part of the culture of the Deep South.

For the Upper South states, the reasons for secession are different. They were much less invested in cash crops, and thus less reliant on slavery Not to imply those weren't slave states, they were, just not as invested as in the Deep South. And those Upper South states, because of geography were more heavily invested in trade with the northern states than the Deep South.

Same is true with the North. We just can't say 'the North' as a whole was thinking this or that. If you look at the Republican Party in 1860, a party that was less than a decade old, it had risen out of the ashes of the WHIG Party, which had collapsed following the Mexican-American War. But the new Republican Party also gained membership from former members of the Free-Soil Party, the Liberty Party, and the American (or Know-Nothing) Party. The WHIGs had basically been an anti-Andrew Jackson/Democratic Party, as WHIGs favored protective tariffs, federal funding for infrastructure projects, and a national bank. Lincoln was a life-long WHIG until the party's collapse in the early 1850s. The Free-Soil Party's goals were to keep slavery out of the western territories as those territories applied for statehood, but there were differences within that party, as some members wanted to keep slavery out of the territories, while others in the party wanted to keep blacks out of the territories, free or slave. Then you had the members of the small Liberty Party, who were the abolitionists. Not only did they support free-soil in the territories, they wanted slavery ended period, although some wanted it done immediately while others called for a graduated process.

Lastly, you still had a Democratic Party in the north, led by Sen. Stephen Douglas of Illinois (he of the famous Lincoln-Douglas debates of 1856). The northern Democratic Party generally supported the southern wing of the party, although those that didn't joined the new Republican Party. Mainly the northern wing supported slavery from an economic standpoint. But Douglas angered the southern wing during the 1860 primaries when he would not support the southern wing's insistence on a platform demanding a constitutional protection for slavery in the territories. Douglas preferred that territories applying for statehood make their own choices. This is what split the party during the general election, as the southern wing put up its own presidential candidate to run against Douglas, allowing Lincoln to win with virtually zero support outside the North.

But back to the North, while Lincoln was a WHIG until the day he joined the Republican Party, he also agreed with the principles of the Free-Soil Party, that slavery could not be allowed into the territories. He believed this because he believed that slavery was destructive to free labor principles. He was not against free blacks in the territories as some in the party were; his beliefs were based on his WHIG principles; he believed in the growth of the new industrial sector and the free labor that was needed for it. But he was also a strong constitutionalist, and so believed that slavery where it existed in the South was constitutionally protected.

Northerners also disagreed on whether the South's actions were a secession or rebellion. Lincoln firmly believed that it was a rebellion. When the war was over (and Lincoln was dead and his Democrat VP was now president) the Republican-controlled Congress treated it as secession, and I think this was mainly because if it as considered secession that meant the seceding states would have to apply to rejoin the Union. This meant they had to go through the territorial process, which was constitutionally controlled by Congress, giving Congress the power to appoint military governers to the former secession states.

At any rate, long story short, the main Republican platform in 1860 was that slavery would not be allowed into the territories. Many, if not most, in the party believed that this would cause the slow strangulation of slavery where it existed, something pro-slavers in the South also feared, hence their secession following his election.
 
Just letting my Vol family know that my Mom had to go back to the ER for the second time in a week. For months now we all have noticed that her appetite has really gone down and doesn't eat much which of course has cause a lot weight loss. Lately she been saying that she has to force food down cause her esophagus wouldn't let her. My sister went over today and said she looks terrible and pale. She stays at a retirement apartment and they were concerned about mom so they called an ambulance. The last report I got was that her Cardiac enzymes are high but not sure still whats up with her not being able to swallow. I know my Dad had that happen but he had Dementia. He passed just a few days after that. I know this could be entirely different situation. I know we have Doctors and people in here who work in the Medical field would appreciate any info that you may think is going on. I know you can't really know without seeing someone but just wondering even if its bad. Mom is 89 has nephropathy and Rheumatoid arthritis. Appreciate your prayers.
Prayers Sent
 
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Growing up in the South in the 60's and being a bit of a military history buff, enhanced from going to HS at the now defunct Castle Heights Military Academy (Tennessee at one time had 10-12 military boarding schools, the anti-military aftermath of the Vietnam War killed them all), I always reveled in the South's resistance against superior military numbers and the skills of some of the Southern generals. To justify that, I agreed with the contention that it was a state's rights war triggered by economic issues. Otherwise, you're supporting the position that human beings can own, beat and even murder other human beings with impunity. If you believe that then there's not much humanity in you.

And then I read a book written by the editor of the Richmond Dispatch in 1866 (Edward Pollard) called the Southern History of the Civil War. It even contains editorials he wrote leading up to the war. The war from the Virginia perspective was all about the preservation of slavery. They wanted to maintain their cheap workforce and more importantly they were obsessed with the potential upheaval resulting from hundreds of thousands of former slaves being freed and who were going to be very angry over their prior imprisonment and treatment. He never writes about states rights, it's all about preservation of slavery.

Then the effect on me of taking the oath to preserve and protect the Constitution at my commissioning was very strong and for most of my adult life I've believed any Southern General who left active service to fight for the South should have been hung for treason after the War. There's no provision in the Constitution for a state to secede (there are some scholars who argue Texas could because it was an independent nation that merged into the US). So what the South did was mount a rebellion against the legitimate government of the US. The military and political leaders of that rebellion should have been hanged.

I know this is going to really light off some of you, so bring it on.

I am not sure I totally agree with this. Virginia's slave ownership had decreased by 1860 as many Virginians had transitioned from tobacco, a cash crop, to food crops, mainly wheat, between 1800-1860, and wheat was not dependent on slave labor. Those Virginians who made the switch sold there slaves away, many to tobacco planters in North Carolina, though some to Virginians who might have continued to grow tobacco.

When Virginia called its Secession Convention into order in February 1861, there were only about 1/3 who could be considered 'Secessionists' against 2/3 who could be considered 'Unionists' or 'Constitutionalists'. Some of these who later swung over to the Secessionists did so less because of support for slavery but more so because they supported an industrial South, and believed there would be less industrial competition in the Confederacy as there would be in the Union. But the major swing from Unionism to Secession did not come until after the fall of Ft. Sumter and Lincoln;s calls for 75000 volunteers. Virginians may not have strongly supported slavery, but as a whole, they very much supported a state's right to secede from the Union.

Further, if you look at Virginia's Ordinance of Secession, it doesn't even mention slavery, which is quite unlike the secession ordinances of the Deep South states, whose ordinances are rather lengthy compared to Virginia's, and make clear their right to slavery.


Virginia Ordinance of Secession
April 17, 1861


AN ORDINANCE

To Repeal the ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, by the State of Virginia, and to resume all the rights and powers granted under said Constitution:

The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in Convention, on the 25th day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eight-eight, having declared that the powers granted them under the said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression, and the Federal Government having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slaveholding States.

Now, therefore, we, the people of Virginia, do declare and ordain that the Ordinance adopted by the people of this State in Convention, on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and seventy-eight, whereby the Constitution of the United States of America was ratified, and all acts of the General Assembly of this State, ratifying or adopting amendments to said Constitution, are hereby repealed and abrogated; that the union between the State of Virginia and the other States under the Constitution aforesaid, is hereby dissolved, and that the State of Virginia is in the full possession and exercise of all the rights of sovereignty which belong to a free and independent State. And they do further declare that the said Constitution of the United State of America is no longer binding on any of the citizens of this State.

This Ordinance shall take effect and be an act of this day when ratified by a majority of the votes of the people of this State, cast at a poll to be taken thereon on the fourth Thursday in May next, in pursuance of a schedule hereafter to be enacted.

Done in Convention, in the city of Richmond, on the seventeenth day of April, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-one, and in the eighty-fifth year of the Commonwealth of Virginia

JNO. L. EUBANK,
Sec'y of Convention.
=====================
 
Always admired Frederick Douglass and have no doubt that's how he felt. Slavery was an evil institution. But there's more to the story than slavery. The North wasn't fighting to end slavery. History says they were fighting to preserve the Union. But in doing so they were basically saying the states were not free and were subject to the federal government. JMO, but from everything I've read, that was not the intentions of the FFs. But for Douglass, who was born a slave, I completely understand why he felt the way he did. He had experienced that evil institution first hand. But I also think that narrowed his focus to where he did not see the entire significance of what the Civil War was about. It wasn't just about one thing. But making it about one thing makes it easier to villainize the South. And as they say, history is written by the victors.

No, the war was not about just one thing. But one thing loomed larger and more consistently across the secession statements from the states themselves:

South Carolina
...A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

Mississippi
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin…

Louisiana
As a separate republic, Louisiana remembers too well the whisperings of European diplomacy for the abolition of slavery in the times of annexation not to be apprehensive of bolder demonstrations from the same quarter and the North in this country. The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery.

Alabama
Upon the principles then announced by Mr. Lincoln and his leading friends, we are bound to expect his administration to be conducted. Hence it is, that in high places, among the Republican party, the election of Mr. Lincoln is hailed, not simply as it change of Administration, but as the inauguration of new principles, and a new theory of Government, and even as the downfall of slavery. Therefore it is that the election of Mr. Lincoln cannot be regarded otherwise than a solemn declaration, on the part of a great majority of the Northern people, of hostility to the South, her property and her institutions—nothing less than an open declaration of war—for the triumph of this new theory of Government destroys the property of the South, lays waste her fields, and inaugurates all the horrors of a San Domingo servile insurrection, consigning her citizens to assassinations, and. her wives and daughters to pollution and violation, to gratify the lust of half-civilized Africans.

Texas
...in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states....

The "States Rights" motive was a branding exercise to make the South's position more palatable when seeking material assistance from France and other European countries. The first people to be confused by the new line were Southerners themselves.

A Richmond newspaper:
"‘The people of the South are not fighting for slavery but for independence.’ Let us look into this matter. It is an easy task, we think, to show up this new-fangled heresy — a heresy calculated to do us no good, for it cannot deceive foreign statesmen nor peoples, nor mislead any one here nor in Yankeeland. . . Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork."

More succinctly, Confederate army cavalry battalion commander John S Mosby after the war:
"I’ve never heard of any other cause than slavery.”
 
UT will be next.
I think early signing day will have to be moved or canceled
Just letting my Vol family know that my Mom had to go back to the ER for the second time in a week. For months now we all have noticed that her appetite has really gone down and doesn't eat much which of course has cause a lot weight loss. Lately she been saying that she has to force food down cause her esophagus wouldn't let her. My sister went over today and said she looks terrible and pale. She stays at a retirement apartment and they were concerned about mom so they called an ambulance. The last report I got was that her Cardiac enzymes are high but not sure still whats up with her not being able to swallow. I know my Dad had that happen but he had Dementia. He passed just a few days after that. I know this could be entirely different situation. I know we have Doctors and people in here who work in the Medical field would appreciate any info that you may think is going on. I know you can't really know without seeing someone but just wondering even if its bad. Mom is 89 has nephropathy and Rheumatoid arthritis. Appreciate your prayers.
You got 'em, Brother. Sincerely hoping for all the best of news.
 
Number of factors. No global scale military. Strong sentiment against foreign wars. Folks point to the Lusitania, but we entered two years after a UBoat hit it. In my opinion, folks saw that Russia was falling apart, and we knew that might tip the scales in the war. We entered a few months before the Russian revolution. Germany aided the revolution by sending Lenin home. Russia leaves, and Germany expects the balance to tip in their favor, but success of revolution in Russia inspires socialists/Marxists/Communists across Europe. Combined with the fact that the US also entered the chat, the Germans don’t see the boost they hoped for. Also, both sides were exhausted. Wanted to find an end to the war.

US impact was more important post war. Wilson planted the seeds for WWII and numerous Mideast and Balkan conflicts in the 20th century.

You have to also consider that Wilson was a Progressive and if the US did not enter the war then the US might not have a place at the peace talks table, which would mean his goals for a world league (the League of Nations) and spreading democracy globally could not be realized.
 
Growing up in the South in the 60's and being a bit of a military history buff, enhanced from going to HS at the now defunct Castle Heights Military Academy (Tennessee at one time had 10-12 military boarding schools, the anti-military aftermath of the Vietnam War killed them all), I always reveled in the South's resistance against superior military numbers and the skills of some of the Southern generals. To justify that, I agreed with the contention that it was a state's rights war triggered by economic issues. Otherwise, you're supporting the position that human beings can own, beat and even murder other human beings with impunity. If you believe that then there's not much humanity in you.

And then I read a book written by the editor of the Richmond Dispatch in 1866 (Edward Pollard) called the Southern History of the Civil War. It even contains editorials he wrote leading up to the war. The war from the Virginia perspective was all about the preservation of slavery. They wanted to maintain their cheap workforce and more importantly they were obsessed with the potential upheaval resulting from hundreds of thousands of former slaves being freed and who were going to be very angry over their prior imprisonment and treatment. He never writes about states rights, it's all about preservation of slavery.

Then the effect on me of taking the oath to preserve and protect the Constitution at my commissioning was very strong and for most of my adult life I've believed any Southern General who left active service to fight for the South should have been hung for treason after the War. There's no provision in the Constitution for a state to secede (there are some scholars who argue Texas could because it was an independent nation that merged into the US). So what the South did was mount a rebellion against the legitimate government of the US. The military and political leaders of that rebellion should have been hanged.

I know this is going to really light off some of you, so bring it on.
I agree with some of what you say. I am still not convinced that the southern Generals were only about the preservation of slavery. It's a difficult issue.
 
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It's very eloquent, but to the soldiers on the front lines on both sides, it is diminishing and inaccurate.

Should we extend the same benefit of the doubt to Nazi infantrymen who may or may not have personally cared about exterminating Jews?

Any how is it inaccurate? I posted several excerpts from the states secession letters explicitly saying the preservation of the institution of slavery was a root cause.
 
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