The Roger Stone Trial

#251
#251
MontyPython said:
Not being charged with a crime is one matter, another matter is their behavior altogether. Simply put: If they did nothing wrong, why did everyone lie about it?

From Wiki:

Conspiracy or coordination
To establish whether a crime was committed by members of the Trump campaign with regard to Russian interference, investigators "applied the framework of conspiracy law", and not the concept of "collusion", because collusion "is not a specific offense or theory of liability found in the United States Code, nor is it a term of art in federal criminal law."[78][79] They also investigated if members of the Trump campaign "coordinated" with Russia, using the definition of "coordination" as having "an agreement – tacit or express – between the Trump campaign and the Russian government on election interference." Investigators further elaborated that merely having "two parties taking actions that were informed by or responsive to the other's actions or interests" was not enough to establish coordination.[80][81]

The investigation found there were over 100 contacts between Trump campaign advisors and individuals affiliated with the Russian government, before and after the election, but the evidence was insufficient to show an illegal conspiracy.[82] The New York Times estimated as many as 140 contacts between "Mr. Trump and his associates and Russian nationals and WikiLeaks or their intermediaries" in the report.[83]

The special counsel identified two methods the Russian government tried to communicate with the Trump campaign. "The investigation identified two different forms of connections between the IRA and members of the Trump Campaign. [...] First, on multiple occasions, members and surrogates of the Trump Campaign promoted – typically by linking, retweeting, or similar methods of reposting – pro-Trump or anti-Clinton content published by the IRA through IRA-controlled social media accounts. Additionally, in a few instances, IRA employees represented themselves as U.S. persons to communicate with members of the Trump Campaign in an effort to seek assistance and coordination on IRA-organized political rallies inside the United States", the report states.[65]

Secondly, the report details a meeting at Trump Tower in June 2016. The intent of the meeting was to exchange "dirt" on the Clinton campaign. There was speculation that Trump Jr. told his father. However, the special counsel could not find any evidence that he did.[65] The office declined to pursue charges for two reasons: the office "did not obtain admissible evidence" that would meet the burden of proof principle beyond a reasonable doubt that the campaign officials acted with general knowledge about the illegality of their conduct; secondly, the office expected difficulty in valuing the promised information that "exceeded the threshold for a criminal violation" of $2,000 for a criminal violation and $25,000 for a felony punishment.[84]

The Report cited several impediments to investigators' ability to acquire information, including witnesses invoking their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination, witnesses deleting electronic communications or using encrypted or self-destructing messaging apps, limitations of interviewing attorneys or individuals asserting they were members of the media, information obtained through subpoenas that was screened from investigators due to legal privilege, and false or incomplete testimony provided by witnesses.[6][7][85][8][86]

While conspiracy/coordination was not proven, Mueller's report left many unanswered questions, such as whether the myriad secret contacts between Trump associates and Russians, which they lied about, constituted, using Mueller's words, "a third avenue of attempted Russian interference with or influence on the 2016 presidential election"? Benjamin Wittes has written about this:

Put another way, what is the story these contacts tell if it's not one of active coordination? They surely aren't, in the aggregate, innocent. They aren't normal business practice for a presidential campaign. When Mueller asks whether they constituted some sort of third avenue for Russian interference, he's really asking, in the prosecutorial language available to him, what to make of them.... To my mind, anyway, that's the story Mueller told in this section. It may not be a crime, but it is a very deep betrayal.[87]​
George Croner of the Foreign Policy Research Institute has also expressed his concerns with what he describes as a "curiously flaccid" approach taken by Mueller in dealing with what the public would normally interpret as "coordination". He sees Mueller's dependence on a formal "tacit agreement" approach as "an overly cautious" and "legalistic construct":

To most individuals, at some point, persistent parallel conduct coupled with "multiple links" between the participants increasingly suggests that the conduct is coordinated—not coincidentally parallel.... t is not surprising that many are confounded by the Special Counsel's inability, or refusal, to render a conclusion on what is publicly perceived as having been the raison d'être of the inquiry.[88]​
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None of them were charged with any crimes related to working with Russia. Period.

It was either lying or things that had zero to do with the investigation (Manafort). Hell, Flynn didn't even lie but he got charged.

The only indictments related to Russian interference in the election were for actual Russians and Internet Agency efforts they undertook.
 
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#252
#252
volinbham said:
None of them were charged with any crimes related to working with Russia. Period.

It was either lying or things that had zero to do with the investigation (Manafort). Hell, Flynn didn't even lie but he got charged.

The only indictments related to Russian interference in the election were for actual Russians and Internet Agency efforts they undertook.
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Flynn didn't lie about his Russian contacts but was fired for lying to Pence about lying to the FBI about his Russian contacts.

Pence: I knew Flynn lied to me about Russian contacts when he was fired
 
#255
#255
Take this for what it's worth (i.e., with a grain of salt the size of the Titanic)

 
#257
#257
Wow, this story just gets richer and richer. Evidently, Bill "gets his money's worth at the all-you-can-eat breakfast" Barr gave a speech this morning about throwing the book at criminal defendants.

 
#263
#263
One of the assistant prosecutors who originally sought the sentence has resigned today in absolute disgust at the political interference with routine local prosecutorial discretion.
 
#264
#264
evillawyer said:
It is if you're under investigation and those text messages concern items of relevance to the investigation.

More on this if you're interested:

How the Mueller investigation was hampered by encryption apps and disappearing messages - CNNPolitics
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If I'm under investigation you can be damn sure that I'm going to encrypt my messages so you can't get at them. He'd be an idiot not to. It's called self incrimination.

Now if this really concerns you, how'd you feel about Hillary deleting 33K e-mails and destroying the server?
 
#270
#270
Two of the bios of the attorneys that said eff this sh*t. Sound like total hack, clerking for the SCOTUS and all.

Aaron Zelinsky is an attorney on loan from the District of Maryland. Before Zelinsky’s appointment to the Mueller team, he worked under the man who appointed Mueller special counsel – Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. Zelinsky worked as an assistant U.S. attorney under Rosenstein during the latter’s time as U.S. Attorney in Maryland. While in Maryland, Zelinsky earned an award for Excellence in Prosecution of Organized Crime. Additionally, Zelinsky has clerked for retired Justice John Paul Stevens and Justice Anthony Kennedy of the Supreme Court. Harold Koh, formerly of the State Department, has said he brought Zelinsky in as a special assistant at the State Department, where he worked the cases of Americans held hostage abroad. Koh calls Zelinsky “an incredible team leader.”

Adam Jed is an appellate attorney on detail from the DOJ’s Civil Division. A former clerk for U.S. Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens, Jed received the Attorney General’s Award for Exceptional Service in 2014, following his work on the successful implementation of the Supreme Court’s decision that struck down the Defense of Marriage Act, a law barring the federal government from recognizing same-sex marriages legalized by the states.
 
#271
#271
C-south said:
Guess their moral compass kicked in.
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EL is way ahead of me on this, I see.

You know, its funny. The theme of the Trump cult is that the administrative state, i.e. government agencies, are out to get him. That they act politically. And now here you have Trump (and likely Barr) personally interfering in a prosecution for purely political reasons. Using DOJ for Trump's own political purposes.

Just amazing.
 
#272
#272
lawgator1 said:
EL is way ahead of me on this, I see.

You know, its funny. The theme of the Trump cult is that the administrative state, i.e. government agencies, are out to get him. That they act politically. And now here you have Trump (and likely Barr) personally interfering in a prosecution for purely political reasons. Using DOJ for Trump's own political purposes.

Just amazing.
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They’re doing no such thing it’s called setting things straight that were ****ed up by inept politically motivated attorneys. You guys always project what your side is guilty of and try to pass it off as a gop or Trump thing.
 
#274
#274
Franklin Pierce said:
Even John Dean said 7-9 years was far too excessive.
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I believe you may be mistaken.

“And I must say, to put the cards on the table, Roger Stone is somebody I hold in minimum high esteem to put it nicely,” Dean said. “In fact, I can’t even say on television my assessment of him, so I was not unhappy to see him get seven to nine.”
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#275
#275
evillawyer said:
Wow, this story just gets richer and richer. Evidently, Bill "gets his money's worth at the all-you-can-eat breakfast" Barr gave a speech this morning about throwing the book at criminal defendants.

Click to expand...

Even though it's working even in states that lean right. Maybe he doesn't count those that don't make the courthouse?

For profit prisons will never be on the side of fewer customers.
 
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