Gun control debate (merged)

#9,754
#9,754
0nelilreb said:
Society can’t fit into a courtroom or judges chambers . So who represents society ? When our “ toys” gets taken away unjustly ?
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It is supposed to be our Congressional representatives. Sadly, it has become special interest groups and lobbying organizations.
 
#9,755
#9,755
0nelilreb said:
Society can’t fit into a courtroom or judges chambers . So who represents society ? When our “ toys” gets taken away unjustly ?
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Did he get his toys back? Thousands of innocent people have spent years of their lives in prison after having been wrongly convicted. That's obviously much worse. Yet we continue to try, convict, and imprison people. We (society) need to constantly work at minimizing injustices while fully understanding they will never be entirely eliminated.
 
#9,756
#9,756
luthervol said:
Did he get his toys back? Thousands of innocent people have spent years of their lives in prison after having been wrongly convicted. That's obviously much worse. Yet we continue to try, convict, and imprison people. We (society) need to constantly work at minimizing injustices while fully understanding they will never be entirely eliminated.
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Now imagine a bunch of lawyers that believe losing your 2a right is more important that losing your freedom unjustly . There’s no continuum here , unjustly losing your rights is bad ... period .
 
#9,757
#9,757
utvolpj said:
Everyone understands this huh? A law that will "inevitably" violate Constitutional rights would seem to be unconstitutional. You don't agree?
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There are facial and as applied challenges. I don't think red flag laws are facially unconstitutional. So any challenge would be an as applied challenge.
 
#9,758
#9,758
utvolpj said:
Everyone understands this huh? A law that will "inevitably" violate Constitutional rights would seem to be unconstitutional. You don't agree?
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No more so than murder trial will inevitably violate constitutional rights. You're not suggesting we do away with those are you?
 
#9,759
#9,759
luthervol said:
Did he get his toys back? Thousands of innocent people have spent years of their lives in prison after having been wrongly convicted. That's obviously much worse. Yet we continue to try, convict, and imprison people. We (society) need to constantly work at minimizing injustices while fully understanding they will never be entirely eliminated.
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I think some details are getting washed out in the generalizations. Did you read this part of the linked story?

Carpenter had never met the woman in question and never lived at the address listed in the restraining order. Moreover, other than being white, he looked nothing like the man the terrorized the woman.

The man in question is 5'8. Carpenter is 5'11. The alleged drug dealer is 110lbs. Carpenter is over 200. The man has black hair. Carpenter is completely bald. Last but not least, the man in question is covered in tattoos, and Carpenter only has a few.

These aren't sweeping "oopsies" we're talking about here. We're talking about something that is a brand new and controversial foray into enforcement that, if anything, should be under the most extreme scrutiny. As canary in a coalmine indicators go it's a catastrophic failure. The kind of failure that people tend to (and very much should) notice.
 
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#9,760
#9,760
evillawyer said:
There are facial and as applied challenges. I don't think red flag laws are facially unconstitutional. So any challenge would be an as applied challenge.
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You have the right to ... LIFE , liberty , and the pursuit of happiness . Has anyone been killed or denied life by the government trying to confiscate firearms over these red flag laws trying to prevent something that hasn’t happened ?
 
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#9,761
#9,761
luthervol said:
No more so than murder trial will inevitably violate constitutional rights. You're not suggesting we do away with those are you?
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You don’t go on trial for murder because somebody calls the po po and says you are not right in the head . If that were true this forum would be a ghost town .
 
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#9,762
#9,762
hndog609 said:
I think some details are getting washed out in the generalizations. Did you read this part of the linked story?

Carpenter had never met the woman in question and never lived at the address listed in the restraining order. Moreover, other than being white, he looked nothing like the man the terrorized the woman.

The man in question is 5'8. Carpenter is 5'11. The alleged drug dealer is 110lbs. Carpenter is over 200. The man has black hair. Carpenter is completely bald. Last but not least, the man in question is covered in tattoos, and Carpenter only has a few.

These aren't sweeping "oopsies" we're talking about here. We're talking about something that is a brand new and controversial foray into enforcement that, if anything, should be under the most extreme scrutiny. As canary in a coalmine indicators go it's a catastrophic failure. The kind of failure that people tend to (and very much should) notice.
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So there's a remedy. Bring a 1983 claim.
 
#9,763
#9,763
0nelilreb said:
You don’t go on trial for murder because somebody calls the po po and says you are not right in the head . If that were true this forum would be a ghost town .
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Some have gone on trial for murder for nothing more than a false accusation.
 
#9,765
#9,765
luthervol said:
Some have gone on trial for murder for nothing more than a false accusation.
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Oh so they had a trial ? What about the one that died because the cops shot him trying to take his guns at 5am in the morning ? There was no burden of proof , there was no trial , no peers to judge him , and he’s not getting out on parole for good behavior .
 
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#9,768
#9,768
hndog609 said:
I think some details are getting washed out in the generalizations. Did you read this part of the linked story?

Carpenter had never met the woman in question and never lived at the address listed in the restraining order. Moreover, other than being white, he looked nothing like the man the terrorized the woman.

The man in question is 5'8. Carpenter is 5'11. The alleged drug dealer is 110lbs. Carpenter is over 200. The man has black hair. Carpenter is completely bald. Last but not least, the man in question is covered in tattoos, and Carpenter only has a few.

These aren't sweeping "oopsies" we're talking about here. We're talking about something that is a brand new and controversial foray into enforcement that, if anything, should be under the most extreme scrutiny. As canary in a coalmine indicators go it's a catastrophic failure. The kind of failure that people tend to (and very much should) notice.
Click to expand...
How many innocent people have been convicted who look nothing like the guilty person? It's horrible. It should be minimized.
 
#9,770
#9,770
0nelilreb said:
Oh so they had a trial ? What about the one that died because the cops shot him trying to take his guns at 5am in the morning ? There was no burden of proof , there was no trial , no peers to judge him , and he’s not getting out on parole for good behavior .
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Don't know the story but it sounds like he was maybe crazy and shouldn't have guns. Or maybe the cops overreacted to his ridiculous refusal to temporarily give up his guns.
 
#9,772
#9,772
luthervol said:
Don't know the story but it sounds like he was maybe crazy and shouldn't have guns. Or maybe the cops overreacted to his ridiculous refusal to temporarily give up his guns.
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The cops come to his door to collect his guns at 5am based on a false claim made by a family member to “ prevent a future , yet to happen occurrence” now he’s dead . This is what happens when the government tries to take your rights from you and will happen again under these laws . But you are ok with this because of a continuum scale and “ the greater good “ ? By the way , nice rope you tossed EL when he jumped with both feet into the quick sand .
 
#9,773
#9,773
0nelilreb said:
The cops come to his door to collect his guns at 5am based on a false claim made by a family member to “ prevent a future , yet to happen occurrence” now he’s dead . This is what happens when the government tries to take your rights from you and will happen again under these laws . But you are ok with this because of a continuum scale and “ the greater good “ ? By the way , nice rope you tossed EL when he jumped with both feet into the quick sand .
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Crazy people should have their guns taken away. How to go about doing that will be messy. We will miss some crazies, and take guns from some who are not crazy. No other viable alternatives.
 
#9,774
#9,774
luthervol said:
Crazy people should have their guns taken away. How to go about doing that will be messy. We will miss some crazies, and take guns from some who are not crazy. No other viable alternatives.
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So you and EL are on the same page , the end result outweighs the cost . Do you two feel the same way about voter IDs? Because sure some people won’t get to vote but in the end the cost is minimal compared to the result .
 
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