Recruiting Forum Football Talk [RIP 9.3.2019]

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#151,376
#151,376
jakez4ut said:
sure, in a one off game or season, yeah. just don't think he could put a team, a complete team, on the field consistently enough to win like we want/expect.
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I disagree completely. In his 17 seasons he's averaged almost 8 wins a season, with 61.6% win percentage at two historically bad football programs. Just showing up in orange & white would elevate his recruiting as well. Even if UT is only flirting with top 15 classes with Leach at HC he is well established to get more with less.

But again, we'll never know. Butch managed 2 9 win seasons here, and Leach is a far superior coach.
 
#151,377
#151,377
MoCo_Vol said:
I disagree completely. In his 17 seasons he's averaged almost 8 wins a season, with 61.6% win percentage at two historically bad football programs. Just showing up in orange & white would elevate his recruiting as well. Even if UT is only flirting with top 15 classes with Leach at HC he is well established to get more with less.

But again, we'll never know. Butch managed 2 9 win seasons here, and Leach is a far superior coach.
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agree to disagree. neither one of us will ever know who would have been right..................shucks.....but at least one of us is happy about that.... :)

and i definitely think he's better than butch....but that's putting the bar pretty low.
 
#151,379
#151,379
LA Vol said:
Negative recruiting is hurting us this year. Other coaches are hammering the narrative that UT is in for a long rebuild and do they really want to go to a school where the goal is to beat Vandy and make a bowl game? It's a tough narrative to overcome, which is why the coaches are trying different approaches. Top recruits know they can get PT here, they know what UT can offer, so the coaches are trying to build relationships and camaraderie without hardselling it. Because hardselling and pushing for commitments isn't working.
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Which is exactly why we still need to act like we are among the royalty in CFB. None of this mealy-mouthed “we need to get to where we are beating Vandy and Mizzou regularly first.” We’ve got everything we need to assume our rightful place among the royalty except for talent. We’re paying a staff handsomely that can go out and get it; now, just go out and get it.
 
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#151,380
#151,380
jakez4ut said:
agree to disagree. neither one of us will ever know who would have been right..................shucks.....but at least one of us is happy about that.... :)

and i definitely think he's better than butch....but that's putting the bar pretty low.
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Point is that Dooley who was awful managed to flirt with 6 wins and top 25 recruiting in his time here. Butch who is a great recruiter and terrible coach did manage to win 3 straight bowl games and back to back 9 win seasons. Don't think it's much of a stretch/reach to assume Leach could have won 8+ here.

Would that be enough for fans? who knows. Who he ever win the SEC or the East? no clue. Still would have likely filled the stands and at least had the program in the mix yearly.
 
#151,381
#151,381
jakez4ut said:
can't keep doing the same things over and over yada yada yada.

but i agree...it's still easy to negative recruit against us right now.

the counter has to be the staff. this is not a staff full of chumps. prospects know that.

i really do think a lot does depend on how we do, how we look this season. i think pruitt knows that. and maybe the soft sell is what is needed, at least for the top of the board. i can see the pitch being "no, don't commit to us right now. you should go look around. you know we want you, you know you're a priority, you know what we htink you can help us do here....let us show you what we can do for you this season, then decide"

now, if you start seeing guys like Baron, Morris, Lawrence etc....start committing to other places sooner than later, then that's bad. lol.

but i do think for us this year, the longer guys remain uncommitted, the better. and even if they do commit, i can see us staying in conact and circling back around after 7 or 8 wins and be like "see......told ya.....c'mon"

no pressure. lol.
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Well, the coaches really don't have a choice. Most elite recruits look at it like a three-year investment. So the coaches are trying to sell a fast-track rebuild, which is being shot down everywhere. Everybody's saying "show me"-- yet recruiting must go on with little to show. So some recruitments are going to stretch out longer, and that's to our benefit. The staff will find guys in camps, and we'll add pieces. But we just need to keep guys engaged until we have more to sell.
 
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#151,382
#151,382
MoCo_Vol said:
To me a schtick doesn't work for long, the fact Leach (and the air raid system) has been winning for as long as it has tells me it's not a schtick. You know truthfully what most people would have ultimately disliked the most, the amount of QBs that would have potentially taken over UT record books. A guy like Dormady who isn't great could have had 3 seasons and 12k+ yards with 100 TDs and we still only win 8-10 games lol

It could have been frustrating though, but Leach wouldn't have any problems running his offense and hanging 60 on the gators in Neyland if the game went there...and that would have almost made it worth it even if he ended up being average here, one game where we blow out a rival who can't stop the Air Raid.
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If things don’t work out with Pruitt this is the route we have to go. We can’t play the same style as UGA or Alabama and expect to win with less talent. It ain’t gonna happen.

We need a more innovative style that allows for experimentation. I’m not saying Leach but someone who can do something different and possibly confound our rivals.
 
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#151,384
#151,384
LA Vol said:
Well, the coaches really don't have a choice. Most elite recruits look at it like a three-year investment. So the coaches are trying to sell a fast-track rebuild, which is being shot down everywhere. Everybody's saying "show me"-- yet recruiting must go on with little to show. So some recruitments are going to stretch out longer, and that's to our benefit. The staff will find guys in camps, and we'll add pieces. But we just need to keep guys engaged until we have more to sell.
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The good news is if Pruitt wins this season it'll get easier. Year 3 could be worrisome though, but if he hits on one of these young QBs he's brought in (2 on campus now and Bailey next year) then the ship might be somewhat righted. I think this year's freshmen can define the speed of our rebuild the most, you've brought in 2 5 star tackles and arguably the single best OL class in program history (on paper). If they live up to expectations top offensive talent (QB/RB especially) will be very happy to play behind them.
 
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#151,388
#151,388
LA Vol said:
Well, the coaches really don't have a choice. Most elite recruits look at it like a three-year investment. So the coaches are trying to sell a fast-track rebuild, which is being shot down everywhere. Everybody's saying "show me"-- yet recruiting must go on with little to show. So some recruitments are going to stretch out longer, and that's to our benefit. The staff will find guys in camps, and we'll add pieces. But we just need to keep guys engaged until we have more to sell.
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agreed. and some may have to come to terms with the fact that may not be this year. it may in fact be a lot longer than we thought.

it's a fine line. you know you need to win and to do that you have to get good/great players. so what comes first? seems we're being asked to do it backwards.....or at the very least being held to a different standard. and this is where i do think in state recruiting really hurts us. while the talent level is up in Tennessee, you have a generation of players that just don't give a crap. many of the mid state's players aren't even from here, and memphis is what it's always been....an SEC melting pot. i don't want to get off track here, but it is one thing that does ineherently make places like GA, FL, FSU, TX, aTm, etc....easier....no matter how bad some of those programs are or have been, you still have a boat load of talent in those states, many of whome ARE fans and have grown up with those programs. that said, it's not a requisite that in state has to be great. but it sure would be nice if we had some of that with some of these top tier guys that you know we want like Baron, lawrence etc.....

anyway not sure that i necessarily buy that that's the case or not (the different standard), but it seems that way. and i don't get the notion (of course i don't follow others as closely, but even peripherally) other programs that "aren't there" are being asked to do the same. i mean FL should be radioactive right now, but they just pull a kid out of Baton Rouge? c'mon man.

so lss, i get all the consternation that @HoleInTheRoof and others have expressed. i really do.

but i do think it's a soft sell right now. i do think they're telling kids to take their time, and i do think what happens this season is important. so i'm just taking a wait and see approach. it's all TBD.
 
#151,389
#151,389
LA Vol said:
Negative recruiting is hurting us this year. Other coaches are hammering the narrative that UT is in for a long rebuild and do they really want to go to a school where the goal is to beat Vandy and make a bowl game? It's a tough narrative to overcome, which is why the coaches are trying different approaches. Top recruits know they can get PT here, they know what UT can offer, so the coaches are trying to build relationships and camaraderie without hardselling it. Because hardselling and pushing for commitments isn't working.
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I’m sure this is correct, however, I do think we’re being more selective this year - and more to the point, we’re changing gears in who we're targeting given that Chaney and Ansley are given a lot more autonomy than the previous coordinators.

The guys we want this year - especially on offense - don’t totally mesh with the guys we were targeting last year in November.

Expect a run of commitments after the camp season.
 
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#151,390
#151,390
MoCo_Vol said:
Point is that Dooley who was awful managed to flirt with 6 wins and top 25 recruiting in his time here. Butch who is a great recruiter and terrible coach did manage to win 3 straight bowl games and back to back 9 win seasons. Don't think it's much of a stretch/reach to assume Leach could have won 8+ here.

Would that be enough for fans? who knows. Who he ever win the SEC or the East? no clue. Still would have likely filled the stands and at least had the program in the mix yearly.
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either way, you're still setting the bar pretty low. and sure, could he win 8 or so games here per year? probably. i just don't think he ever gets past that. while he would have a higher floor here, i think we'd have lower celing imo.
 
#151,391
#151,391
MoCo_Vol said:
The good news is if Pruitt wins this season it'll get easier. Year 3 could be worrisome though, but if he hits on one of these young QBs he's brought in (2 on campus now and Bailey next year) then the ship might be somewhat righted. I think this year's freshmen can define the speed of our rebuild the most, you've brought in 2 5 star tackles and arguably the single best OL class in program history (on paper). If they live up to expectations top offensive talent (QB/RB especially) will be very happy to play behind them.
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We absolutely have to raise the bar this year. We can't preach patience and baby steps and expect to keep recruiting at an elite level. These top recruits aren't patient. And they're not impressed by six wins and the Liberty Bowl. They want to be competing with UGA and UF for the division and the chance to play in the SECCG, and they want to believe it's a year away. This "be the foundation" pitch isn't working for in-state kids. They want to believe the foundation is in and they're the final pieces.
 
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#151,392
#151,392
LA Vol said:
Well, the coaches really don't have a choice. Most elite recruits look at it like a three-year investment. So the coaches are trying to sell a fast-track rebuild, which is being shot down everywhere. Everybody's saying "show me"-- yet recruiting must go on with little to show. So some recruitments are going to stretch out longer, and that's to our benefit. The staff will find guys in camps, and we'll add pieces. But we just need to keep guys engaged until we have more to sell.
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tl/dr version...agreed, but that takes more time than most want to give....and i'm sure it's more time than Pruitt wants to take.
 
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#151,393
#151,393
LA Vol said:
We absolutely have to raise the bar this year. We can't preach patience and baby steps and expect to keep recruiting at an elite level. These top recruits aren't patient. And they're not impressed by six wins and the Liberty Bowl. They want to be competing with UGA and UF for the division and the chance to play in the SECCG, and they want to believe it's a year away. This "be the foundation" pitch isn't working for in-state kids. They want to believe the foundation is in and they're the final pieces.
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then, our pitch had to change.........so there you go. cause i agree. there is no "want to" just because it's TN. those days are in the rear view.

this rebuild is giong to take some studs willing to come on board, a la the 19 cycle, and some serious development.

which i think we'll see.
 
#151,394
#151,394
If we managed 8+ wins and one of them is Georgia, Bama, or Florida then that'll for sure make it easier.

I also think @Kingston Vol makes a fantastic point. We did just bring in 2 new coordinators who will want their guys. Likely means the 2020 class could be a lot different (depending on recruit response) than 2019. I think as the season begins and kids get to see what the new systems will look like dominoes will start to fall into place.
 
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#151,395
#151,395
jakez4ut said:
tl/dr version...agreed, but that takes more time than most want to give....and i'm sure it's more time than Pruitt wants to take.
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Yep, and this year will tilt the seesaw. The more recruits like Ratledge decide that UT is going to take a year or two longer than they want, the more we'll see recruits who really like UT go elsewhere. So being "patient" is only going to work with a certain kind of recruit and a certain kind of rebuild. A lot of the in-state guys want the fast-track-- as Bailey has found out.
 
#151,396
#151,396
MoCo_Vol said:
If we managed 8+ wins and one of them is Georgia, Bama, or Florida then that'll for sure make it easier.

I also think @Kingston Vol makes a fantastic point. We did just bring in 2 new coordinators who will want their guys. Likely means the 2020 class could be a lot different (depending on recruit response) than 2019. I think as the season begins and kids get to see what the new systems will look like dominoes will start to fall into place.
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agreed, though i'd be a little surprised if there was much difference in Ansley's guys vs. Pruitt's.....Chaney, yeah, i can probably see some differences being tossed around.
 
#151,397
#151,397
Kingston Vol said:
I’m sure this is correct, however, I do think we’re being more selective this year - and more to the point, we’re changing gears in who we're targeting given that Chaney and Ansley are given a lot more autonomy than the previous coordinators.

The guys we want this year - especially on offense - don’t totally mesh with the guys we were targeting last year in November.

Expect a run of commitments after the camp season.
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They're always as selective as they can be. And absolutely, we'll see commitments after the camp bumps. But a lot of these commits will be under-the-radar and development guys-- and there's nothing wrong with that. This staff has proven they can sniff out and develop talent. But the top recruits on our board and some of the in-state guys are a different breed. We need them, too.
 
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#151,398
#151,398
LA Vol said:
Yep, and this year will tilt the seesaw. The more recruits like Ratledge decide that UT is going to take a year or two longer than they want, the more we'll see recruits who really like UT go elsewhere. So being "patient" is only going to work with a certain kind of recruit and a certain kind of rebuild. A lot of the in-state guys want the fast-track-- as Bailey has found out.
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agreed. and that just means at some point, they're going to have to decide what htey want to do.

i don't think Fulmer is going to be eager to pull the trigger on pruitt, and i think pruitt is probably pretty happy with this staff as constructed.

if this season winds up a 6-6 meh type year, then you can just add another year to any eventual rebuild cycle one may have decided on. if you think it's 3, then add, if you think it's 4, then add...you get the idea. because then, you're looking at player development being the biggest factor in getting us back. and that just takes time.

or you start up the pitchforks and torches and start seeking out the next HC you think can win instantly.

neither are really all that desireable.

at the end of the day, i do think a lot of the anxiety here is for naught. i do think this staff will recruit and develop. and i think this season probably it's that 7 or 8 win mark and we go to a pretty good bowl, and there's "enough" to get some of the wait and see prospects on board....not all though.

would do us well to beat FL, GA or Bama this year though in route to that 7 or 8 wins. that would be a good indicator of direction, and a win like that could be ***could be*** enough to show some kids what they wanted to see as far as direction goes.
 
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