Abortions and the bible.

#27
#27
Some think everything happens for a reason and we have no right to influence the future in such a consequential way as abortion. Others lean towards this life in a random and uncaring universe as all there is. I can understand why Christians feel compelled to stop what they see as murder while people like me privilege the health and comfort of fully sentient beings above the rights of potential people.
 
#28
#28
luthervol said:
It's not murder. But isn't that kind of the sticking point.
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mur·der
/ˈmərdər/
noun
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

verb
1.
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.

Technically since abortion is legal, it is not murder. It is still not the best form of birth control.

What I find interesting is how pro abortion folks say it isn't a life, but if a pregnant woman is murdered, the murderer gets charged with two counts of murder.
 
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#29
#29
superdave1984 said:
mur·der
/ˈmərdər/
noun
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

verb
1.
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.

Technically since abortion is legal, it is not murder. It is still not the best form of birth control.

What I find interesting is how pro abortion folks say it isn't a life, but if a pregnant woman is murdered, the murderer gets charged with two counts of murder.
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I have never said it is the best form of birth control, in fact, I say it is one of the worst.
 
#30
#30
superdave1984 said:
What I find interesting is how pro abortion folks say it isn't a life, but if a pregnant woman is murdered, the murderer gets charged with two counts of murder.
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I've always found that to be an interesting hole in pro-choice thinking.

Also, pro-choicers who think there should be no limits/restrictions on when a fetus can get aborted take the most heat from pro-lifers, but actually that is the logically consistent position if you're pro-choice. If at no point is the unborn being a life - at fertilization, first trimester, right before birth - why limit it? Why not allow abortions right up until the point of birth?

If you're pro-choice but want it done early in a pregnancy, then that seems like an acknowledgement that at some level the unborn is something other than just a mass of cells.
 
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#31
#31
NorthDallas40 said:
Let’s use the biblical examples earlier and if the baby dies let’s punish the father and mother by ripping the dudes junk off and sewing the chick’s vagina shut. I really don’t think the libs want to involve a First Testament vengeful God in their solution.
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I will do battle with an imaginary figure any day.
 
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#32
#32
05_never_again said:
I've always found that to be an interesting hole in pro-choice thinking.

Also, pro-choicers who think there should be no limits/restrictions on when a fetus can get aborted take the most heat from pro-lifers, but actually that is the logically consistent position if you're pro-choice. If at no point is the unborn being a life - at fertilization, first trimester, right before birth - why limit it? Why not allow abortions right up until the point of birth?

If you're pro-choice but want it done early in a pregnancy, then that seems like an acknowledgement that at some level the unborn is something other than just a mass of cells.
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Laws passed by conservatives?
 
#33
#33
ClearwaterVol said:
Laws passed by conservatives?
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Those laws might have been passed by conservatives, but clearly that is not their end goal and seen as an incremental step. That's no different than Democrats in the Alabama Legislature proposing amendments to the abortion bill that allowed exceptions in the cases of rape and murder, which is actually a conservative position. They were just trying to get something, anything, that was closer to their actual position.

I'm talking about pro-choicers who believe abortions should be illegal after a certain point in the pregnancy, and there are many of them.
 
#34
#34
luthervol said:
No problem.
My point is that I don't assign any magical status to the second a sperm penetrates an egg. Some do.
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There is a magical transformation which happens to the membrane of the egg immediately upon fertilization. The composition of the cell wall changes which prevents other sperm from entering. It is not understood (or at least i don't recall an explanation how it happens). At this point, the fertilized egg has all the genetic information as you and I, it is a living thing according to the 7 criteria necessary to distinguish living things from non living, and the process of reorganization of the cell begins.
 
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#35
#35
McDad said:
There is a magical transformation which happens to the membrane of the egg immediately upon fertilization. The composition of the cell wall changes which prevents other sperm from entering. It is not understood (or at least i don't recall an explanation how it happens). At this point, the fertilized egg has all the genetic information as you and I, it is a living thing according to the 7 criteria necessary to distinguish living things from non living, and the process of reorganization of the cell begins.
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That's about as magical as a sperm (I guess a non-living thing) swimming around looking for an egg to fertilize.
I just do not view a zygote as a human life. Again, some do and some don't.
 
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#36
#36
ClearwaterVol said:
Abortion is such a nasty word. Let's outlaw abortions and just allow early delivery. If the baby lives, it was god's will. If not, it was also god's will.
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Yeah, so God designs us humans to incubate for about 40 weeks in the womb before the mothers body is naturally triggered to deliver...lets surgically alter that timeline, say cut it in half or worse, pull the baby out and then blame a God that the person probably doesnt believe in when the baby dies. Makes perfect sense, sound logic.



McDad said:
There is a magical transformation which happens to the membrane of the egg immediately upon fertilization. The composition of the cell wall changes which prevents other sperm from entering. It is not understood (or at least i don't recall an explanation how it happens). At this point, the fertilized egg has all the genetic information as you and I, it is a living thing according to the 7 criteria necessary to distinguish living things from non living, and the process of reorganization of the cell begins.
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Yes. Mitosis (cell splitting replication) starts almost immediately when the egg is fertilized. At that moment, it has its own unique DNA different from everyone else on earth, and is growing exponentially one cell division at a time. It is a life, a new life, all its own. No matter how advantageous and perfect the lab experiment is set up, no matter which or how many artificial stimuli are added, scientists cannot replicate this. They can alter life, thru genetic modification, such as the man made e.coli bacteria that was recently "created" 1 amino acid at a time from another living E.coli...but man cannot give life, or a soul, to anything. Only God Almighty can do so. I wonder if these pregnant young ladies were told exactly how many days or weeks along they are, and shown how much the baby jas developed at that stage, some of which is amazing to me, then given a mandatory 72 hour waiting period to "cool off" like everyone gets when buying a pistol....how many more of them would decide to keep the baby, even if it meant putting it up for adoption? What if they were assured they wouldnt be in debt for the child birth, or that it could be delivered by Csection if they were too scared of natural childbirth? As a country we have already killed i believe 60 million unborn babies. That is staggering, and should be to anyone. If education could be used to stop this tragedy, then we should be all over it. This 1 huge sin is what makes me think America is the "whore" that is described in Revelations. It is shameful
 
#37
#37
volfanjustin said:
The left would have been much better off if they stuck with safe are rare, now we are at late term and even if baby survives a botched abortion still ok to let them die. And it doesn't bother dems one bit women use abortions simply as a form of birth control.
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I've known a few GOP gals that used abortions as birth control. It's asinine and naive to believe only liberal women have abortions.
 
#39
#39
Anyone who has a child and experienced the pregnancy - from feeling the kicks and movements inside, hearing the heartbeat early on, seeing the child on the ultrasound, to receiving the cargo delivered on the day of birth - and is still ok with abortion has a serious defect in their conscience.
 
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#40
#40
K-town Vol Fan said:
In the bible, God murdered Bathsheba's newborn baby, killed all the first born sons in Egypt, sent bears to murder children, commanded Joshua to murder the children in Jericho, and all babies were wiped out during the flood. It also talks about dismembering children and cutting them out of the mother's womb.

So please help me understand, why do some crazy Republican Christians think their God doesnt approve aborting a fetus of an unwanted pregnancy?
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So murder should be legal because a book said so?
 
#46
#46
DC_Vol said:
Anyone who has a child and experienced the pregnancy - from feeling the kicks and movements inside, hearing the heartbeat early on, seeing the child on the ultrasound, to receiving the cargo delivered on the day of birth - and is still ok with abortion has a serious defect in their conscience.
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Most dims are so detached from reality that an abortion ain't any different than dying and respawning in a video game.
 
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#49
#49
When does it become intelligent/sacred life? That is the question. Before that point, it is not homicide/murder. After that point it is. Anybody acting like they know when that point is not reasonable. I would say it's obviously sacred life if it's developed enough to survive premature birth, but anything earlier than that is a big ol' question mark.
 
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#50
#50
DC_Vol said:
Anyone who has a child and experienced the pregnancy - from feeling the kicks and movements inside, hearing the heartbeat early on, seeing the child on the ultrasound, to receiving the cargo delivered on the day of birth - and is still ok with abortion has a serious defect in their conscience.
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Not in the least. Been through a lot pregnancies (from the male perspective) and have 3 children.
 
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