Dance with the one that brung you...

#26
#26
I wonder how many people that don't want Fulmer gone have used the last 16 years getting as close to the program as possible and just don't want to see all that brown nosing work go to waste. A new coach comes in here and don't give two damns about who they are or how they are associated with the program.
 
#27
#27
dimera23 said:
We're breaking in a new quarterback. We've hired a new Offensive Coordinator and we're acclimating an offensive line to his entirely new system. We have to expect some growing pains.

Crompton hasn't proven himself at the NCAA level. He may not be all that he was hyped up to be coming out of high school.

Clawson's new system calls for the O-line to rotate from left to right depending on the formation. This is a very difficult transition to make. It creates a situation where linemen don't get enough reps on either side of the line which can create some problems in pass protection?

Hurries, pressures and sacks are up dramatically this year. Defenses are getting in Crompton's face and forcing him to make quicker decisions. He isn't handling that well right now. He's making poor decisions and missing reads. He's also played against two of the best defenses in the SEC.

Coach Fulmer's game plan has put us in a position to win every game this year. We have failed to execute when given the opportunities. Fumbles, Interceptions, missed routes and poos decisions in the red zone have hurt us bad this year. It isn't the play calling, it is the execution.
Click to expand...

You went from talking about the past 7 years to this year. Let’s say that your points about this year are valid. What about the past 7 years?

Show me our record over the past 7 years against our rivals (AL, GA, FL, LSU, AU)?

Calculate over the past 7 years how many Championships they have compared to ours? I will help you out a little (TN = 0).

By MHs own standards, CPF has underachieved the past 9 years.
 
#29
#29
drewwes01 said:
The original poster is correct in that change for change sake is usually never good. But you have to look at the circumstances of each individual situation and make a good faith assessment of what should be done.

Fulmer was great for Tennessee football. He has added to the history of the program.

But any reasonable objective observer can see that there are major problems that could be beyond his power to correct. The fans I meet of other SEC schools always ask how long Tennessee is going to keep him around. I guess everyone else in the country can see it except for the people who have the power to make a change at UT.

I want Tennessee football to be great. But there needs to be a change.
Click to expand...

Take a look at the "top" coaches in the NCAA. They don't have better records than Coach Fulmer. They don't have more national titles that Coach Fulmer. They don't have more bowl appearances or conference titles than Coach Fulmer.

Change to what?

Can you even guarantee that the next coach would be as good as Coach Fulmer, much less better?
 
#31
#31
dimera23 said:
Do you have any factual information to back up this claim or is it pure emotional conjecture?
Click to expand...

Sure. As exhibit A, I'd like to present this little tidbit of "factual information" - Phil Fulmer has gone a full decade at Tennessee without producing a conference championship. At UT, that's failure.
 
#32
#32
Jaytrain5 said:
Sure. As exhibit A, I'd like to present this little tidbit of "factual information" - Phil Fulmer has gone a full decade at Tennessee without producing a conference championship. At UT, that used to be failure.
Click to expand...

fyp
 
#33
#33
Jaytrain5 said:
Sure. As exhibit A, I'd like to present this little tidbit of "factual information" - Phil Fulmer has gone a full decade at Tennessee without producing a conference championship. At UT, that's failure.
Click to expand...

BY MHs own written standards, that is failure.

Now dimera23, what facts are you going to share with us about the past 7 years to back up your argument; or is it pure emotion (please don't fall back to our record against patsies). Here is a couple that I have asked for.

Show me our record over the past 7 years against our rivals (AL, GA, FL, LSU, AU)?

Calculate over the past 7 years how many Championships they have compared to ours? I will help you out a little (TN = 0).
 
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#36
#36
VolDad said:
BY MHs own written standards, that is failure.

Now dimera23, what facts are you going to share with us about the past 7 years to back up your argument; or is it pure emotion (please don't fall back to our record against patsies). Here is a couple that I have asked for.

Show me our record over the past 7 years against our rivals (AL, GA, FL, LSU, AU)?

Calculate over the past 7 years how many Championships they have compared to ours? I will help you out a little (TN = 0).
Click to expand...

The facts speak for themselves. Coach Fulmer has 100 more wins than losses. He has the Vols contending for a divisional title almost every year. He almost always has us in a bowl game and almost always has us in the top 25.

Any suggestion that he is not a good football coach or that he has not been successful at the University of Tennessee is plain foolishness and flies in the face of any reasonable measure of success.

We play in the toughest division of the toughest conference in the NCAA, it is absolutely silly to expect to win it every year. All we can really ask for from our coach or our team is to put us in a position where we have the opportunity to win. Coach Fulmer does that and then some.
 
#37
#37
while i applaud the OP's well thought out and well written post, and even will point that the philosophy behind all of it is sound, i just can't get myself to believe any of it anymore in regards to Coach Fulmer given what i've seen the past 4 years here, and at other programs we compete with.
 
#38
#38
jakez4ut said:
while i applaud the OP's well thought out and well written post, and even will point that the philosophy behind all of it is sound, i just can't get myself to believe any of it anymore in regards to Coach Fulmer given what i've seen the past 4 years here, and at other programs we compete with.
Click to expand...

You would be the one to applaud a long-winded essay.

Only kidding Jake. I see what you're doin', and I love it.
 
#39
#39
dimera23 said:
The facts speak for themselves. Coach Fulmer has 100 more wins than losses. He has the Vols contending for a divisional title almost every year. He almost always has us in a bowl game and almost always has us in the top 25.

Any suggestion that he is not a good football coach or that he has not been successful at the University of Tennessee is plain foolishness and flies in the face of any reasonable measure of success.

We play in the toughest division of the toughest conference in the NCAA, it is absolutely silly to expect to win it every year. All we can really ask for from our coach or our team is to put us in a position where we have the opportunity to win. Coach Fulmer does that and then some.
Click to expand...

So you are saying MHs measure of success being 2 SEC Championships in 10 years is unreasonable. OK...Thanks, I know where you stand. Square in the middle of Mediocrity City.
 
#42
#42
dimera23 said:
He almost always has us in a bowl game and almost always has us in the top 25.

Any suggestion that he is not a good football coach or that he has not been successful at the University of Tennessee is plain foolishness and flies in the face of any reasonable measure of success.
Click to expand...

Almost only counts with hand grenades, atomic bombs and horseshoes.

Fulmer is done. He can't cut it anymore. Time to get rid of him before he starts ruining his own record.
 
#43
#43
VolDad said:
So you are saying MHs measure of success being 2 SEC Championships in 10 years is unreasonable. OK...Thanks, I know where you stand. Square in the middle of Mediocrity City.
Click to expand...

I haven't seen the document you're referencing so I cannot comment on it. Is it posted somewhere for review?

Working on an assumption though, I'd wager that there were more benchmarks listed by Hamilton than just "2 SEC Championships in 10 years."
 
#45
#45
**stats compiled by Vol Addict (Jerry M.)**

Fulmer's Record Since 1998

Head to head records among these 7 coaches:
Miles 9-4 (.692)
Meyer 9-6 (.600)
Tuberville 17-13 (.567)
Richt 15-13 (.536)
Spurrier 16-14 (.533)
Saban 8-10 (.444)
Fulmer 11-25 (.306)


2-1 vs. Zook - 3-11 vs. Spurrier & Meyer (when Spurrier at UF)
8-1 vs. Goff & Donnan - 3-4 vs. Richt
2-0 vs. Terry Bowden - 1-4 vs. Tuberville
1-0 vs. Hallman - 2-4 vs. Saban & Miles (when Saban at LSU)
8-2 vs. DuBose, Franchione, & Shula - 0-1 vs. Saban (at AL)
12-0 vs. Woods, Scott, & Holtz - 2-1 vs. Spurrier (at SC)


Johnny Majors' record last 6 seasons (1987 - 1992)
49-17-3 (.732)
3-1 in bowl games
3 major bowl appearances (Cotton, Sugar, and Fiesta)
2 SEC championships
Final AP poll rankings: 14, NR, 5, 8, 14, N/A (only coached 8 games)


Phil Fulmer's record last 6 seasons
2-3 in bowl games
0 major (BCS) bowl appearances
0 SEC championships
Final AP poll rankings: NR, 15, 13, NR, 25, 12


Losses to unranked teams 6 years in a row
6 consecutive seasons with 3 or more losses (8 out of last 9)


4 year records immediately following national championship:
- Fulmer ranks 57th out of 77 national champions since 1936
- Fulmer ranks 17th out of last 19 national champions


Losses to First Year Coaches
2000 - Saban at LSU
2001 - Richt at GA
2002 - Zook at FL
2005 - Meyer at FL
2005 - Weis at ND
2005 - Spurrier at SC
2007 - Saban at AL
2008 - Neuheisel at UCLA


Overall record 2005 - 2008: 25-17 (.595)
Overall record 2002 - 2008: 53-28 (.654)
SEC games 2005 - 2008: 14-13 (.519)
SEC East games 2005 - 2008: 9-7 (.563)
6-12 (.333) vs. Ranked Teams 2005 - present
3-8 (.273) vs. ranked SEC teams at home: 2002 - present
Lost 7 out of last 10 games vs. ranked teams, 8 out of last 12, and 11 out of last 16 (6 of those 11 losses were by double digits)
2006 Vol rushing defense gave up more yards per carry (4.70) than any Vol team since UTAD begin keeping the stats in 1951


Consecutive seasons without SEC title: 9
Consecutive seasons without BCS bowl: 8
Consecutive seasons without top 10 ranking: 6
Seasons excluded from AP and/or Coaches Top 25: 2000, 2002, 2005
Seasons with 3 or more losses: 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
Seasons with 4 or more losses: 2000, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007
Seasons with 5 or more losses: 2002, 2005
Seasons with multiple losses to unranked teams: 2003, 2005,
Consecutive seasons with a loss in last two games of season: 9
Seasons with double digit postseason loss: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006


UT SEC Titles
1933 - 1939 2
1940 - 1949 2
1950 - 1959 2
1960 - 1969 2
1970 - 1979 0
1980 - 1989 2
1990 - 1999 3
2000 - 2007 0


Longest intervals without SEC title:
1. 1970 - 1984 (Bill Battle was fired)
2. 1999 - current
3. 1957 - 1966 (Bowden Wyatt was fired)
4. 1991 - 1996 (Majors was fired)
5. 1933 - 1937 (SEC formed in 1933 - Neyland was away in 1935)
5. 1941 - 1945 (Neyland was away during WWII - no team in 1943)
7. 1947 - 1950
7. 1952 - 1955 (Neyland retired after 1952)
9. 1986 - 1988
10. 1968


SEC titles since 1998:
LSU 3
FL 2
GA 2
AUB 1
AL 1
TN 0


5-8 (.385) vs. Spurrier: (3-3 since 1998)
0-4 (.000) vs. Meyer
3-4 (.429) vs. Richt
1-4 (.200) vs. Tuberville (at AUB after '98, 3-4 overall)
1-3 (.250) vs. Saban
1-2 (.333) vs. Miles
11-25 (.306) vs. above 6 coaches


SEC teams that Fulmer has a winning record vs. the current head coach: KY, Vandy, Ole Miss, and Mississippi State


10-21 (.323) 1999 - present vs. FL, GA, LSU, AUB (thank God for Zook!)
8-20 (.286) 2000 - present vs. FL, GA, LSU, AUB
6-19 (.240) 2000 - present vs. FL, GA, LSU, AUB excluding games vs. Zook
6-17 (.261) 2000 - present vs. FL, GA, AUB
4-14 (.222) 2000 - present vs. FL, GA, AUB excluding games vs. Zook
6-11 (.353) 2000 - present vs. FL, GA
4-10 (.286) 2000 - present vs. FL, GA excluding games vs. Zook
3-5 (.375) 2000 - present vs. GA
8-17 (.320) vs. Top 10 teams 1999 - present
1-8 (.111) vs. Top 10 teams at home 2000 - present
6-15 (.286) vs. Top 10 teams 2000 - present
20-26 (.435) vs. Ranked Teams 1999 - present
11-19 (.367) vs. Ranked Teams 2002 - present
3-5 (.375) Bowl games since 1998 (all losses were by double digits)
3-8 (.273) Postseason record since 1998 including SECCG (all losses were by double digits except for 2007 SECCG)

National recruiting rankings:
2003 FL 2 TN 5
2004 FL 7 TN 12
2005 TN 2 FL 13 (Zook was fired and Meyer was just hired)
2006 FL 5 TN 24
2007 FL 2 TN 6
2008 FL 5 TN 30
(Phil Steele's rankings which are a composite compilation of many recruiting services' rankings)


Losses To Unranked Teams:
1. 2008 UCLA 27 TN 24
2. 2007 AL 41 TN 17
3. 2006 PSU 20 TN 10
4. 2005 Van 28 TN 24
5. 2005 SC 16 TN 15
6. 2004 ND 17 TN 13
7. 2003 Clem 27 TN 14
8. 2003 Aub 28 TN 21
9. 2001 GA 26 TN 24
10. 2000 LSU 38 TN 31
11. 1999 Ark 28 TN 24


Non-competitive games (see footnotes also)
1. 1999 NEB 31 TN 21
2. 2000 GA 21 TN 10 (1)
3. 2000 KSU 35 TN 21
4. 2001 LSU 31 TN 20 (2)
5. 2002 FL 30 TN 13
6. 2002 AL 34 TN 14
7. 2002 Miami 26 TN 3
8. 2002 MD 30 TN 3
9. 2003 AUB 28 TN 21 (3)
10. 2003 GA 41 TN 13
11. 2003 CLEM 27 TN 14
12. 2004 AUB 34 TN 10
13. 2004 AUB 38 TN 28 (4)
14. 2005 GA 27 TN 14 (5)
15. 2005 ND 41 TN 21
16. 2006 ARK 31 TN 14
17. 2006 PSU 20 TN 10 (6)
18. 2007 CAL 45 TN 31 (7)
19. 2007 FL 59 TN 20
20. 2007 AL 41 TN 17
21. 2008 FL 30 TN 6


"Cliffhanger" wins vs. "weak" teams (see footnotes also)
1. 1999 TN 17 Memphis 16
2. 2000 TN 19 Southern Miss 16
3. 2000 TN 19 Memphis 17
4. 2000 TN 28 Vandy 26
5. 2001 TN 38 KY 35
6. 2003 TN 34 Marshall 24 (8 )
7. 2003 TN 23 SC 20 (9)
8. 2003 TN 23 Duke 6 (10)
9. 2004 TN 21 Miss 17
10. 2004 TN 38 Vandy 33
11. 2004 TN 37 KY 31
12. 2005 TN 17 UAB 10
13. 2005 TN 20 Memphis 16
14. 2006 TN 31 Air Force 30
15. 2006 TN 17 KY 12 (11)
16. 2007 TN 25 Vandy 24


Since 1998, 48 out of 117 games (41.0%) have been losses to unranked teams, games the Vols were not competitive in, or narrow victories over "weak" teams.

Footnotes

Only AP polls were used for ranking purposes.
(1) One could legitimately question the inclusion of this game, but the loss dropped the Vols to 0-3 in the SEC, they lost by double digits, and the offense was anemic at best.
(2) The final score wasn't a blowout, but LSU outscored TN 24-3 in the second half after losing their starting QB and RB, and it was a double digit loss. The Vols also blew a shot at the NC.
(3) AUB dominated the game, and would have shut the door after going up 35-7 if not for an incorrect call wiping out an obvious AUB TD (replays by officials were not in effect yet).
(4) AUB had 36 FDs and almost 600 yards. When TN tied it up, AUB just cranked up the offense again and put the game away, and had the ball DEEP in TN territory when the game ended. TN defense was totally clueless and offense was comatose until second half.
(5) TN given a controversial TD on last play of game.
(6) This game was mainly included because TN QUIT at the end of the game, and it was a double digit bowl loss yet again also.
(7) Late fumble by CAL on the TN goal-line prevented it from being a 21 point loss.
(8 ) Marshall might well have won if the Marshall QB hadn't knocked himself out of the game celebrating a TD with a jumping chest bump.
(9) SC was 5-7, 2-6 in the SEC that year.
(10) The game was included because TN only led 9-6 well into the 4th quarter, and they were so BAD the coach had already been fired. TN didn't score a TD until Duke fumbled in their own territory. Duke had the ball 8 minutes more than the Vols, but missed 2 FG attempts also.
(11) OK, KY wasn't a "weak" team LY, but they are still KY, who hasn't beaten the Vols since 1984.
 
#46
#46
dimera23 said:
Fulmer: (prior to 2008)

vs Bama 11-5

vs Georgia 11-5

vs Arkansas 10-3

vs Auburn 3-2

vs SC 14-2

vs Florida 5-11
Click to expand...
nice records, save Florida. they are even better the 1st 7 years of the career, and drop off significantly during the 2nd half of the career.

the numbers in the numbers...coaches head to head, also tell a different story.

it behooves me to stipulate that only because while we're in the process of not ignoring the good, we should also not ignore the bad.

so, while i can't deny what he has done over the length of his career, i also can't deny that he's been less than satisfactory, using the standards he's responsible for building mind you, against Meyer, Spurrier, Saban, Richt and Tubberville, the current compeition.

using that information, it's not a stretch to predict similar resutls so long as nothing changes here.
 
#47
#47
Zuter said:
You're skewing the answer...he said the last 7 years. 11+5 = 16. FTR, I hope CPF stays.
Click to expand...

You don't understand, he thinks having the job is a recognition of the body of work, sort of a lifetime achievement award except instead of a little statue or a trophy you get millions of dollars.
 
#48
#48
Nice list of stats, there -- the initial post certainly has some "fuzzy math!"
 
#49
#49
Zuter said:
You're skewing the answer...he said the last 7 years. 11+5 = 16. FTR, I hope CPF stays.
Click to expand...

Fulmer (2001-2007):

vs Bama 4-3

vs SC 6-1

vs Arkansas 3-1

vs Georgia 3-4

vs Auburn 0-2

vs Florida 3-4

This period also includes wins over Michigan, Miami, Texas A&M, Cal, Wisconsin and a very good Air Force team.
 
#50
#50
bottom line look at Battle and Majors last seven and compare them to Phil's last seven.....
 
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