Interesting point from Doug Mathews re: OLine

#52
#52
LibertyVolance said:
I'm sure it does work on some teams that have the personnel (lighter and more agile blockers), but these guys are professionals that can practice it all day long without time limits. But the teams that deploy zone blocking in the pros, draft those lighter, agile linemen to fit their scheme.
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Either it is or isnt a pro style scheme.

The blocking scheme used by CJP isnt going to insure only NFL caliber lineman come here and the one used by CBJ didn't keep NFL caliber lineman from coming here.

Zone blocking is effective and used at all levels and imo ifnyou habe the personnel that fits it you definitely should be using it. As you get the body types you want on your team you can then begin incorporating a man on blocking scheme.
 
#53
#53
VolDaddy61 said:
Just the overall lack of physicality is concerning, but it's seems it's been that way for a while. Good to great offensive line play has been a hallmark of UT football as long as I can remember. Football,more often times than not, is won up front. The teams with the best o-lines and d-lines will be the better teams.
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Football games are always wom up front. A great O or D line makes all the difference in the world.
 
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#54
#54
The offense has been a disappointment. I thought we really looked good at RB, WR, and TE before the season began. QB was questionable but JG has done an adequate job considering his protection. The OL has been terrible and is and will be the reason this offense can't succeed. We need a lot of OL that can and want to play immediately next season. Beating out most of the present guys should be easy for anyone wanting to play early.
 
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#55
#55
LibertyVolance said:
We all recognize that the talent (skill) level of the Oline isn't where it needs to be, but an attitude (nasty in a good way) doesn't require talent. Ga's Oline was downfield blocking and ours very noticeably was not. He pointed out that every good Oline on past Vol teams, esp the really good ones, always blocked downfield and headhunted. They would look for someone to lay a hat on. If there wasn't someone in front of them, they would look for someone to hit, esp LBs and lighter weight DBs to knock out of a play.

He cited the 4 or 5 yd pass to Jennings near the sideline when he struggled and squirmed to fight free. We didn't have a single OLineman helping him out with a block. Instead the defenders were descending on him from all sides. In his words, an OLine that doesn't have particularly good ability can still develop a nasty attitude and keep hunting for someone to block until the whistle blows to end a play. I recall our best Olines (Galbreath, McKenzie, McRae, and names I've forgotten) were always seen blocking downfield and finding somebody to lay a hat on. And we've had some very good ones. Just not lately.
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Our O line is so soft they couldn't play for the Lady Vols!
 
#58
#58
LibertyVolance said:
Zone blocking on a team trying to reestablish a power run game again? Tits on a bull, my friend. Tell me you don't remember Reggie Cobb, Johnny Jones, Chuck Webb, James Stewart, Travis Stephens, and Travis Henry being led downfield by a horse team of Olinemen leaving defenders strung out along the trail. They would eclipse the final 40 on their own speed maybe, but that team of horses called the Oline started them on their way for the first 20 or so and trailed them into the endzone. Zone blocking on a power run game? Tits on a bull.
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I was saying the oline went from zone blocking to now trying to pro style block and it takes different tougher lineman like back in the day they did with the running backs you named.
 
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#59
#59
GetYouSomeofThat said:
What is the difference between the two styles?

Wonder why so many NFL teams zone block if it doesnt work in the pros?
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NFL teams resort to zone blocking when they don't have a big mean offensive line. Zone line is easier to pick up and it's what Butch used witch means smaller more agile blockers lead with there feet and double team to the second level and the running back looks at the helmet to see witch gap to run. Pro style is predetermined with lead blocks . If we had a running QB the new coaching staff would maybe adjust to their style but we don't so better to build depth and learn the new system.
 
#60
#60
ruger1234 said:
No need to go that far back. In 2015 vs Georgia Hurd caught a screen pass and was escorted by the big nastys for a big gain.
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With any coaching at all, the 2015 Vols should have been a playoff team, IMO! Think about the games that team lost and the circumstances. I will hang-up and listen. GBO!
 
#61
#61
rocytop2624 said:
NFL teams resort to zone blocking when they don't have a big mean offensive line. Zone line is easier to pick up and it's what Butch used witch means smaller more agile blockers lead with there feet and double team to the second level and the running back looks at the helmet to see witch gap to run. Pro style is predetermined with lead blocks . If we had a running QB the new coaching staff would maybe adjust to their style but we don't so better to build depth and learn the new system.
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I dont mean to be a dick ( even though its seems to come naturally to me😁) but there is plenty info on zone blocking by coaches that use it readily available to read.

zone blocking is the philosophy of choice for many not something done because their linemen suck.
 
#62
#62
This is true IMO. Did Lane Kiffin leave a OL "poison pill" in our locker room or something? This has been going on since Dooley. Even when we were stacked w NFL guys Dooley's last season and Butch's first it was a problem. That group had some very talented pass protectors, which the NFL covets. But our run blocking still sucked.

Every time a runner was hit near the LOS, there would be 3-4 gang tackling him, and 2-3 linemen just hovering over the assault like they were helpless. They are like statues. If the play breaks down any differently than drawn up, they'll just stop like they are finished.

If coach Pruitt and this staff can FIX this problem and the tackling techniques, then he's going a long way right off the bat.
 
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#63
#63
GetYouSomeofThat said:
I dont mean to be a dick ( even though its seems to come naturally to me😁) but there is plenty info on zone blocking by coaches that use it readily available to read.

zone blocking is the philosophy of choice for many not something done because their linemen suck.
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I didn't say it was done because their lineman suck. But it does take a different type of player. For example the NY Giants line has been awful well the coach said they was going to focus on zone blocking came out the next week and did alot better. But that's pro. In college you recruit to a style .Butch was zone. JP is wanting a pro power offense so now their is a learning curve.
 
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#64
#64
I think there's something in the water. The longer you drink it, the worse you get. Then you declare for the draft, move away, and play in the NFL.
 
#65
#65
Bottom line is the finesse zone blocking out of the spread made us smaller and weaker in the running game. That style is not going to work in the SEC. Others mix in some spread, but they NEVER lose their ability to run the football and be physical. Bottom line is if your line isn't physical you aren't going to beat the top teams in the SEC, no smoke and mirrors is going to fool a big time sec team. They will load the box and not even worry about your running game, we seen this under the Butch Jones era time and time again. So while I certainly agree with have to mix in more vertical passes I do not want us to abandoned the running game, while we have struggled there we have had some success as we do have so good backs. They have to learn during the game how to run block, not enough practices to do it solely in practice. It's not something you can turn off and on like a light switch. We for sure need to mix it up more, but going to a spread now is not going to help us get better at the running game and it is only going to set back the O-Lineman we do got coming back switching back to a weak finesse spread game with a average at best QB. We just have to keep improving out of the pro style with going more vertical down field in my opinion. Going to smoke and mirrors now and going back on your philosophy to make it easier on the players isn't going to work. How did last years record work out with it. Just keep working at the system laid out but stretch the field more, it doesn't have to be a and or situation.GBO!!!!!!!
 
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#66
#66
Woodlawn VOL said:
Bottom line is the finesse zone blocking out of the spread made us smaller and weaker in the running game. That style is not going to work in the SEC. Others mix in some spread, but they NEVER lose their ability to run the football and be physical. Bottom line is if your line isn't physical you aren't going to beat the top teams in the SEC, no smoke and mirrors is going to fool a big time sec team. They will load the box and not even worry about your running game, we seen this under the Butch Jones era time and time again. So while I certainly agree with have to mix in more vertical passes I do not want us to abandoned the running game, while we have struggled there we have had some success as we do have so good backs. They have to learn during the game how to run block, not enough practices to do it solely in practice. It's not something you can turn off and on like a light switch. We for sure need to mix it up more, but going to a spread now is not going to help us get better at the running game and it is only going to set back the O-Lineman we do got coming back switching back to a weak finesse spread game with a average at best QB. We just have to keep improving out of the pro style with going more vertical down field in my opinion. Going to smoke and mirrors now and going back on your philosophy to make it easier on the players isn't going to work. How did last years record work out with it. Just keep working at the system laid out but stretch the field more, it doesn't have to be a and or situation.GBO!!!!!!!
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Zone blocking isnt finesse...it simply creates double teams somewhere and a lane or crease in that vicinity regardless of an even or odd front on the defense. zone blocking allows the running back to find the hole instead if the play call being designed for a specific hole.

Yes, the body type is somewhat different but if you dont have the body type you want and winning is on your priority list the first year then youd better figure out how to scheme and playcall with what you have.

This is on CTH more than the head man but ultimately he has responsibilty for all of it.
 
#67
#67
It's all attitude on the field. My son is very quiet off the field and in practice. but, there is a reason, that as a HS 5'8" 170 lb sophomore, he is starting at LG and LT in front of juniors and seniors twice his size and going against DL's he routinely gives up 70-100 pounds to. and he is the one on the field staying with the play and coming out of the pile downfield. so much so, that in the second half of their 7th game he finally got in at his position for the first time at LB where he stayed the rest of the night. 5 solo tackles and two assists on a team that arm tackles as good as UT. Wrapped his tackles up and put them down. It's all about want to, whatever level you play.
 
#68
#68
LibertyVolance said:
We all recognize that the talent (skill) level of the Oline isn't where it needs to be, but an attitude (nasty in a good way) doesn't require talent. Ga's Oline was downfield blocking and ours very noticeably was not. He pointed out that every good Oline on past Vol teams, esp the really good ones, always blocked downfield and headhunted. They would look for someone to lay a hat on. If there wasn't someone in front of them, they would look for someone to hit, esp LBs and lighter weight DBs to knock out of a play.

He cited the 4 or 5 yd pass to Jennings near the sideline when he struggled and squirmed to fight free. We didn't have a single OLineman helping him out with a block. Instead the defenders were descending on him from all sides. In his words, an OLine that doesn't have particularly good ability can still develop a nasty attitude and keep hunting for someone to block until the whistle blows to end a play. I recall our best Olines (Galbreath, McKenzie, McRae, and names I've forgotten) were always seen blocking downfield and finding somebody to lay a hat on. And we've had some very good ones. Just not lately.
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They are too damn slow to get to a play down or across the field!! (also I don't think they want to,,, don't seem to have much want to)
 
#69
#69
Remy said:
Not me, I've BEEN harping about the ball is not getting into our playmakers hands enough. We have 3 guys on offense who need to get at least 65% of the touches and it's Chandler, Callaway, and Jennings. Our TEs need one touch per half, they are weakest unit on the field IMO.
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It's hard to say they are the weakest. Trying to follow their play on TV is near impossible. How are they blocking, when you can see them they seem to do pretty well. Catching the ball, just don't use them this way very much. So,, we don't know whether they can catch it or run the routes or not.
 
#70
#70
LibertyVolance said:
In a sudden flash of absolute brilliance that may very well blind you if you look too close, I think I just stumbled upon the answer Will Friend and Pruitt need to put some toughness in both lines, O and D. They need to contact some Japanese professional Sumo wrestlers and bring them in to teach these linemen how to fire off the line and get some push. Dress them in those Japanese sumo diapers and let them learn to dust talc on their hands and body, raise one big leg up pound it down and then the other, and then charge into one another in a circular ring with full force with the aim of taking them down or forcing them outside the circle. Let the pro sumo wrestlers train them in the offseason until they get the hang of it. Let them learn to grunt and cuss each other in Japanese. Develop a nasty attitude and when it's time to put on pads and cleats, it will be effortless to get some real traction and willingness to knock some people down.
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Really not a bad thought!!! Just wonder what would be the real results. ( likely a lot of holding calls)
 
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#71
#71
Volfan2012 said:
The offense has been a disappointment. I thought we really looked good at RB, WR, and TE before the season began. QB was questionable but JG has done an adequate job considering his protection. The OL has been terrible and is and will be the reason this offense can't succeed. We need a lot of OL that can and want to play immediately next season. Beating out most of the present guys should be easy for anyone wanting to play early.
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I thought so too. Truth is our WRs don't possess the kind of speed we need. The TEs that we hoped might be pretty good have neither blocked nor caught the ball well as yet. WRs - Missing out on Tee Higgins/Omari Rogers from our own backyard was the pits. It still burns.
 
#72
#72
Wayna Morris could start immediately next season. Hopefully we keep him and add two more just like him. Overall we need at least three more OL's in this class and certainly need to go looking for Grad Transfers and JC"s that can play immediately and actually can play.
 
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#73
#73
rocytop2624 said:
I was saying the oline went from zone blocking to now trying to pro style block and it takes different tougher lineman like back in the day they did with the running backs you named.
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I see what you're saying now. I confess to being ignorant of blocking schemes. When the conversation drifted into that area, I got lost.
 
#74
#74
Spook1 said:
Coach Doug Mathews really did not have anything good to say about the blocking of the offensive line. The radio guys of Tim Priest constantly mentioned that the Georgia offensive line was knocking the Vols defensive line backwards. Pure and simple, Georgia has Sam Pittman as their offensive line coach, probably the best in American. Pittman had been brought to UT by Coach Dooley and was very happy at UT. Butch Jones cut him loose...dumb move to cut loose the best offensive line coach in America. Mathews was not impressed with the play calling of the offensive coordinator either.
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Yep, these losses are still Butch's. Letting Sam Pittman go was a horrendous decision. Butch would probably still have his job if we had something resembling a good OL coach. Butch also owns how weak we appear to be on the defensive and offensive lines. We are still paying for his decision to gut the S&C program and replace it with god knows what. The current staff started behind the eight ball because of that and are now trying to get these guys back into SEC shape. I could go on about JG not having a true QB coach for a year, or a true OC coordinator but it's beating a dead horse.

Summary. Butch sucks. These losses this year belong to him.
 
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#75
#75
ruger1234 said:
Throwing down the field kills two birds with one stone. It slows the press coverage outside and keeps safetys from creeping up to stop the run.
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Don't we need one speed receiver to run the long routes? Supposedly Palmer is the quickest of those seeing much playing time, but he didn't really beat the Ga safeties on his TD catch in the endzone. He turned back and made the catch with 2 of them right beside him. We have seen little of Jordan Murphy and nothing from Latrell Williams, so who knows if they have breakaway speed or not. But as bad as we need to throw some deep balls to keep defenses from crowding us, I think we may be hampered by our lack of a real burn speed WR. It looks like Callaway and Palmer are our best bets for deep balls.
 
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