QB job is Keller Chryst's to lose going into 2nd scrimmage

#227
#227
butchna said:
Just keep it even. Chryst has 3 years of performance to second guess vs JG’s one.
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Exactly. And no one who has actually watched both guys can argue that JG's ceiling is much higher than Chryst's.

Many are bringing up that JG held the ball too long last season. Fair point. He did. Let's not forget, though, that the wide receivers got very little separation last season. That combined with poor O Line play is a recipe for disaster. JG absolutely could have and should have thrown the ball away rather than taking sacks on many occasions, but when the guys around you arent doing their job it makes it that much harder to do yours.

I'm biased towards JG just because I see so much potential in him. With that being said, I will 100% support KC if he wins the job. At the end of the day, I just wanna win.
 
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#228
#228
BisonVol said:
Exactly. And no one who has actually watched both guys can argue that JG's ceiling is much higher than Chryst's.

Many are bringing up that JG held the ball too long last season. Fair point. He did. Let's not forget, though, that the wide receivers got very little separation last season. That combined with poor O Line play is a recipe for disaster. JG absolutely could have and should have thrown the ball away rather than taking sacks on many occasions, but when the guys around you arent doing their job it makes it that much harder to do yours.

I'm biased towards JG just because I see so much potential in him. With that being said, I will 100% support KC if he wins the job. At the end of the day, I just wanna win.
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Lot more of this stance than is being credited.
 
#229
#229
BisonVol said:
Exactly. And no one who has actually watched both guys can argue that JG's ceiling is much higher than Chryst's.

Many are bringing up that JG held the ball too long last season. Fair point. He did. Let's not forget, though, that the wide receivers got very little separation last season. That combined with poor O Line play is a recipe for disaster. JG absolutely could have and should have thrown the ball away rather than taking sacks on many occasions, but when the guys around you arent doing their job it makes it that much harder to do yours.

I'm biased towards JG just because I see so much potential in him. With that being said, I will 100% support KC if he wins the job. At the end of the day, I just wanna win.
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And all your points lead to poor coaching and player buy in.
 
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#230
#230
k-town_king said:
KC OBVIOUSLY threw a ton of bubble screens and short passes. If not he wouldn’t average a half a yard less than the guy you accuse of throwing only short passes.

Plus JGs average went up as the year went on. He wasn’t throwing only short passes his last four starts. He averaged over 9 ypa which would lead the SEC for the year.

Chryst had a ton of “guaranteed completions.” They just weren’t guaranteed for him, being so inaccurate.

You obviously are not basing your argument in fact.
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I have no intention on starting this debate back with you again but do want to make a couple points. 7.1 ypa is virtually no difference than 6.7. It's literally a foot and a half. Also our RB led us in pass reception's or was tied for 1st. He could complete 3-6 for 20 yards to the WR's and have a 3.6 ypa. Then throw a swing pass to a RB and he gains 20 yards.Then one of those where he tosses it to the player in motion that runs in front of him. Where he literally tosses it a foot and he gains 25 yards. Suddenly his 50% competition goes to 5-8 62% 65 yards passing. Now his YPA is 8.1. So a QB could average throwing longer passes than another QB but have a less YPA because of yards after completion that factors into that.

59 of the 179 Vols QB completions were to Running Backs. We all know they weren't much more than a few yards beyond the Line of Scrimmage, plus god knows how many of those forward tosses to a WR in motion counted in those Receptions Those numbers are aided by what yards the RB's and Receiver's gain. So a 2 yard pass could end up a 8-10 yard+ pass. HIs AYA being almost identical tells more than the YPA does, because they add and subtract from that average depending on TD's and Int's. One 40-60 yard completion can skew the YPA. JG's last 4 games he had 81 attempts for 766 yards 9.5 YPA. Take away the longest past in each game it becomes 77 attempts for 584 yards 7.5 ypa. See what one pass can do? He had 43 completions for 766 yards in those last 4 games against UK, Vandy, S.Miss and LSU. Not exactly stiff competition, none finished ranked and the 3 who went to a bowl all lost. 13 of those 43 completions were to RB's. In those 4 games he played in the 2nd half in 3 of them and was knocked out in the other. In those three 2nd half's we scored 16 pts, one of which was a TD after Vandy was up 25+. McBride put up 14 of the 24 vs S.Miss. You just put way too much stock in YPA and not enough in TD's and Wins. I have no clue where to find it but would love to know your boys Numbers on 0-10 yard passes, 10-20 yard pass and 20+ yard passing completion percentage . And I'm talking about passes that traveled that far in the air on each and how many of each completion and attempt fell into each of those 3 ranges. That is much more telling than ypa, where the pass catcher can inflate the ypa. Ok I've said my peace on this and know you dismiss anything that doesn't hype up JG. But that's ok, stats never tell the full story. But in saying this if/ when JG wins the job I hope he plays up to the pedestal you have him on. Will be a very good year if he does!👍👍 Go Vols!!

No Chryst's number's weren't spectacular or impressive either. But he also had Heisman contending RB's and wasn't asked to do much more than dink and dunk.
 
#231
#231
It seems to me that the deficiencies that people attribute to J.G. Such as decision making, holding the ball too long are fixable, as opposed to the things coaching can't fix such as field vision, arm strenght & release.
 
#233
#233
Vol423 said:
I find the ongoing Volnation QB debate interesting. There are a lot of posters that picked sides in the JG/Chryst debate before Chryst even arrived on campus. I find the contention that he was promised the starting job or that he will be given preference by the coaching staff for the starting job absolutely laughable. I don't think this coaching staff gives a damn who any of the players are. They just want the best players on the field so they can start to turn the program around. I think that it could go either way, but my guess is that JG will win the starting job for the West Virginia game. However, I don't think either one of these guys are particularly good quarterbacks, and I feel that it is likely that both of them play significant time this year.
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I hope nobody really believes he was promised anything other than a equal and fair shot to win the job. Even Chryst said he was never promised anything. Personally if I had a gun to my head and had to pick one to pull for it would be Shrout. He was the 1st QB commit for this staff and many say he will never see the field. Would love to see those fans proven wrong and shown they don't know more than our Coach's. Plus his ceiling is off the charts if everything comes together for him. Would include Mauer in that too. Both are likable and will be easy to pull for. But agree, There's no way any coach guarantees any player or recruit anything. Any fans who think that haven't paid much attention to JP or his staff. Won't be any favoritism either. They may secretly want the guys they recruited to establish themselves and be why we get back to where we should be. What Coach's ego wouldn't want that. Plus it's the recruits they spend countless hours and resources to get here and were handpicked. But they will start the best players no matter who got them here.
 
#234
#234
From the sound of things it will end up being Strout. lol

Hopefully the QBs push each other every step of the way bring out the best in each other.

Also, may there be little or no drop-off from the starter to the backups!
 
#235
#235
sona said:
If that is how it shakes out, do you expect JG to stick around?
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I don't see him going anywhere until after the season. Not sure how close to graduating he might be but the smart thing is to wait until semester break or graduation.. would have better options..
 
#236
#236
Darth_Shiveman said:
Pot meet kettle.


QBs who can complete more than 60% of their passes. John Parker Wilson is the only one he ever had who didn't. Since 2009 Saban's starters have averaged a completion percentage of 65.3%. Chryst has never done better than 56.6.%



Getting the ball out quick and making the right reads is meaningless if the ball bounces to the WRs. Also debatable about Chryst consistently making the right reads. SDSU and Oregon State probably wouldn't agree that he was making the right reads against them.
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Stanford also doesn't have close to the playmakers or OLine Ala has had nor the Coaching Staff. If Blake Sims can put up the numbers he did then you know the elite coaching and talent he had around him. Hurts too! No QB makes the right reads all the time. Hell look at Peyton, His last 2 yrs at TN he had 23 Int's in 23 games and almost averaged an Int per game for his career in the NFL. Josh ALLEN completed a lesser % than Chryst and was a top 10 draft pick. Stats look great on paper but is the worst way to solely just a player off of. Unless it's a team you watch religiously and have seen pretty much every snap by the player. Just like our passing defense was top 5 in the country last year, but any Vol fan knows that is as skewed of a stat as you will ever see. Now when look at our ranking for completion percentage or yards per completion then that tells the real story. Teams didn't have to throw on us much but we're successful the little time they did. More times than not Chryst made the right reads and rarely turned the ball over. Now he wasn't always successful after making the right read but he also didn't have elite QB Coaching
sjt18 said:
Reading is really not a strength for you is it? I said specifically in a response in the last two pages that all of these reports have to be "taken with a grain of salt". Yes. What the guy said when correlated to what Pruitt said rings true. Is it? Is it an accurate representation of what happened? None of us can truly know.

I never said JG was a mental midget. I just pointed to a pretty obvious weakness that has held him back to date... that I have MANY TIMES said I hoped he would overcome. NO ONE is "unbiased". Some are just blinded by bias... I'm not. And all other things being equal... in truth I would lean toward favoring JG. I LOVE the way he throws the ball. I loved the way Bray threw the ball and minus the really deep accuracy... JG looks similar at times.
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This!! None of our QB's has done anything to earn any confidence in them yet, but that can change with a few wins and productive games. JG gives us the best opportunity to hit those 80 yd TD passes with his natural abilities, but has yet to show much consistency in doing it. But the potential is definitely there if he's mentally tough and has his mind right. All the talent in the world is useless if a QB is weak minded and thin skinned. Something we don't know about JG yet, how mentally strong is he and how does he react when things aren't going well. And can he take his a$$ chewing's and move on?? Many guys more talented than JG have wasted their gifts because of thin skin and not being mentally strong enough. Honestly believe that's the only thing that can keep JG from reaching his potential.
 
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#237
#237
greazy1722 said:
Those reporters that be giving yall insite dont know much most of it be speculation or assumptions..


If im a coach and my freshman is better than than my Junior or Senior im going with the younger player..We not talking about Standford roster we talking Tennessee roster..People please remember who Pruitt worked under and what type of Qbs Saban had..All game managers..JG has a way better arm and potential..But can JG manage a game while operating a pro style offense? Nobody knows yet..Im not hating on JG by any means..Chryst is a game manager he going to get the ball out quick and make rite reads..We all saw what JG did last year..JG wasnt the only problem but remember he is the qb
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I think Pruitt will differ from Saban on QB's. Jimbo and Richt didn't have game manager QB's. Although I wouldn't call AJ a game manager, Sims and Coker's Sr years they put up more passing yards than rushing per game. Coker had to win several games with his arm as did Sims. of course it was with Lane calling plays. But without Sims and Coker, Clemson beats Ala by double digits both years. Tua definitely won't be either, they never beat GA last year without turning This loose. Ala has relied on QB's to win them more games the last 4-5 yrs. Not saying week in and out but like with Tua last yr, Helton definitely wants more than a game manager and think JP will give his OC more say than Saban does. Nick is a control freak and EVERYTHING has to be his way. Game manager's aren't going to beat teams like Ala very often anymore. Hopefully JP let's Helton do his thing and he focus's on being the HC and helping out on Defense. We've seen enough from our last HC, who was a control freak and it was his way or get the hell out.
 
#238
#238
jasonvol18 said:
Stanford also doesn't have close to the playmakers or OLine Ala has had nor the Coaching Staff.
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Yes, and Chryst is going to be in a worse situation this year than he was previously. Not a recipe for success for him.



If Blake Sims can put up the numbers he did then you know the elite coaching and talent he had around him. Hurts too! No QB makes the right reads all the time. Hell look at Peyton, His last 2 yrs at TN he had 23 Int's in 23 games and almost averaged an Int per game for his career in the NFL.
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True, but Peyton also had a great arm and could pick teams apart. Not the case here.

Josh ALLEN completed a lesser % than Chryst and was a top 10 draft pick.
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And? Allen was drafted because of his measurables and arm strength. I'm not sure what's relevant about this.

Stats look great on paper but is the worst way to solely just a player off of. Unless it's a team you watch religiously and have seen pretty much every snap by the player. Just like our passing defense was top 5 in the country last year, but any Vol fan knows that is as skewed of a stat as you will ever see.
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Puh leeeeeeze. You've used all kinds of dumb stats to back up dumb arguments on here. Like arguing Stanford's vs UT's SOS when arguing JG vs KC (despite the fact that neither of them played full seasons).

I've watched 6-7 of Chryst's games. His completion percentage is very indicative of who he is as a passer. His arm isn't that powerful or consistent. He does some things good and was a good game manager at times and at times a huge liability to a team that should have won 10 games.


More times than not Chryst made the right reads and rarely turned the ball over. Now he wasn't always successful after making the right read but he also didn't have elite QB Coaching
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How many QBs do get elite QB coaching? If you need elite coaching just to complete 60% of your passes, you're not a very good QB.
 
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#241
#241
So Chryst has out performed JG or is this still just speculation? All things considering I thought JG played decent last year for a first year player and given the offense he played in. So he has regressed and Chryst has come in and won the job in 2 weeks when JG has been here since the new staff showed up? Either he has regressed, Chryst is a quick study, or there’s some shenanigans going on here. I have no preference other than we start the right guy from the jump. Our QB situation is a quandary at best.
 
#242
#242
zballvol said:
So Chryst has out performed JG or is this still just speculation? All things considering I thought JG played decent last year for a first year player and given the offense he played in. So he has regressed and Chryst has come in and won the job in 2 weeks when JG has been here since the new staff showed up? Either he has regressed, Chryst is a quick study, or there’s some shenanigans going on here. I have no preference other than we start the right guy from the jump. Our QB situation is a quandary at best.
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Everything so far is speculation on both sides. Pruitt really hasn't said anything today or before to clarify the situation. Today he said when the number 1 guy emerged they would name him the starter.

JG got some media praise early with some guys even saying it was over. Many if not most are saying that KC closed the gap... which would be normal even if he's not going to be the starter. In my "fair and balanced" opinion... both guys have weaknesses.

JG didn't show a great command of the O last year. He didn't show he could read D's. The coaches didn't show much trust in his ability to make reads or "manage the O". Too often he was indecisive. For him to be the starter IMO, he needs to have learned the new playbook thoroughly, learned pre-reads, learn post snap coverage reads, and do so with the confidence to be decisive.

KC needs to become more accurate. His decision making with the ball has to improve significantly over what he did at Stanford (it probably cost him the starting job there). He also appeared to struggle with post snap reads at times which isn't good for a guy with his time in CFB. If he's as risky and inaccurate in the SEC as he was at times in the Pac12... he'll throw INT's in bunches.
 
#247
#247
LWSVOL said:
not speculation. its more JG not performing than KC outperforming..

don't trust anything coming from media. they are getting much less than they ever got from CBJ.
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Really, really sorry to hear that. It was my suspicion this summer when they added Chryst but then I thought maybe JG was coming around based on some of the reports.
 
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#248
#248
Darth_Shiveman said:
Yes, and Chryst is going to be in a worse situation this year than he was previously. Not a recipe for success for him.





True, but Peyton also had a great arm and could pick teams apart. Not the case here.



And? Allen was drafted because of his measurables and arm strength. I'm not sure what's relevant about this.



Puh leeeeeeze. You've used all kinds of dumb stats to back up dumb arguments on here. Like arguing Stanford's vs UT's SOS when arguing JG vs KC (despite the fact that neither of them played full seasons).

I've watched 6-7 of Chryst's games. His completion percentage is very indicative of who he is as a passer. His arm isn't that powerful or consistent. He does some things good and was a good game manager at times and at times a huge liability to a team that should have won 10 games.




How many QBs do get elite QB coaching? If you need elite coaching just to complete 60% of your passes, you're not a very good QB.
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Peyton was also under the tutelage of possibly one of the best college QB coaches to ever be one in Cutcliffe. It was no accident Archie Manning had both sons play for him and both have a couole of Superbowl rings to boot. Both Peyton and Eli have won more games with their heads and work ethic than their arms.
 
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#249
#249
sjt18 said:
Really, really sorry to hear that. It was my suspicion this summer when they added Chryst but then I thought maybe JG was coming around based on some of the reports.
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Yeah, I think everybody agrees that JG is where the physical talent is. Wonder if that means he's throwing it all over the place or that he's not picking up the offense?
 
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#250
#250
GAVol said:
Yeah, I think everybody agrees that JG is where the physical talent is. Wonder if that means he's throwing it all over the place or that he's not picking up the offense?
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I have been accused of being a "hater" but I'm really not. Last year he got beaten out by QD because QD mastered the playbook, reads, and mental part while they were still forced to reduce the O for JG when he took over midseason. I ALWAYS thought that Jones wanted JG to take the job but couldn't give it to him because he told the team that whoever scored better on that point system he used would get the job. I don't have firm proof of that... just a lot of little things that pointed me that way.

There are a lot of possible reasons why he is struggling with the mental/decision making part if that is actually true. It just comes harder to some guys... and some guys never get it. I became a Vol fan when Heath Shuler signed with them. We're from the same hometown and church. His dad said that Heath had a study hall and tutor to learn the playbook. Few people worked harder than Heath but the mental part came more natural to Colquitt from what we understood.

The mental part may just come harder to JG. Unfortunately, he raised questions about his maturity and immature players sometimes don't think they should have to put in the work or believe what they're doing is good enough. Some guys just aren't quick thinkers. I'm sure there are endless possible reasons and combinations of reasons.

I'm not claiming I know... only that I've seen these things happen before. For that matter, Larry has been wrong before... usually because the direction changed between the time he shared and when things happened... but he has been wrong.

OTOH, he seemed to be pretty spot on back when Fulmer and Co were in charge. It is possible some of his connections are reconnected to the football team now.
 
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