We’re #1 in Something....

[sjt18]

Don't break your arms, patting yourselves on the back for taking guesses without any analysis to show whether they're right. I mean you, SJT and Roustabout.

I'm not attacking you. Just pointing out that you have no clothes on.

Sure do. The "analysis" was the simple fact that it is a virtual statistical impossibility to be THAT far out of line with everyone else's injuries from pure chance.

You looked right past the proof... and demanded proof because you didn't like the conclusion.

Football is a rough game. Injuries happen. But when one team's injuries are consistently higher than those of others... it isn't "luck"... it is cause and effect.

Not attacking you... just pointing out that we were right and you were wrong.

 

[sjt18]

Difficult looking back on it how a fellow who was all about the analytics could not grasp the data was telling him his team had an inordinate amount of injuries over several seasons. If he did not recognize it, then he missed the root cause as there's no evidence he corrected it at all.

Some still deny that consistently high injury rates are caused by factors controllable by the coach apparently....

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

Since Phil Steele tracked this stat, only 1 team other than UT has lost more than 50 games to injury twice...Colorado State under Sharkhumper. UF was 3rd this year in injuries. Obviously, there are some trends that keep repeating themselves...

 

[Roustabout]

Not rushing to defend him, but he now works for the NCs

Making coffee

 

[livefaith]

We were #2 in 2016 but according to many on here, we did not have a culture/accountability problem or a S&C problem....

Like every single other poster on here, I have no clue what the problem was exactly in 16 & 17 concerning injuries. Nevertheless, we had a problem, and it helped Butch out the door.

 

[AshG]

I'm almost positive it came from the band. You may need to go interrogate the majorettes or flag members from 20 years ago...

Yep, it was from the band. Took a few games to catch on in the band, but once it did it spread like wildfire.

It was a joke by a few students in a specific section, protesting the discipline of another member; it was done very mockingly and was accompanied by a salute. Some trumpets players saw it and thought it looked cool, so that section started doing it. The band director, not realizing he was the brunt of the joke, said "we all do it or none of us do it." Thus, the "Woooo!" was born.

If you find the 1996 CD we recorded, you can hear where an audio engineer missed one of the kids yelling "Yippee!" instead of the Wooo. It's very noticeable in the last track, one last jab at the situation before it passed into history.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Some still deny that consistently high injury rates are caused by factors controllable by the coach apparently....

No.

Not a single person has denied that.

What I and others deny is that you have a clue. What we know is that you're guessing. Because neither you nor anyone else have done the analysis it would take to find and understand patterns among all the injuries.

You're just making a wild guess, which may be right or may be utterly wrong. You simply don't know.

That's what people are denying.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Like every single other poster on here, I have no clue what the problem was exactly in 16 & 17 concerning injuries. Nevertheless, we had a problem, and it helped Butch out the door.

Well put, Livefaith. That is what we know. It's all we know, until/unless someone does the analysis.

 

[Boca Vol]

Yep, it was from the band. Took a few games to catch on in the band, but once it did it spread like wildfire.

It was a joke by a few students in a specific section, protesting the discipline of another member; it was done very mockingly and was accompanied by a salute. Some trumpets players saw it and thought it looked cool, so that section started doing it. The band director, not realizing he was the brunt of the joke, said "we all do it or none of us do it." Thus, the "Woooo!" was born.

If you find the 1996 CD we recorded, you can hear where an audio engineer missed one of the kids yelling "Yippee!" instead of the Wooo. It's very noticeable in the last track, one last jab at the situation before it passed into history.

I knew someone with ties to the band could clear up this great travesty bestowed upon our beloved university's unofficial fight song.

Thanks for the explanation. Now let's go find those scoundrels and hang them by their toenails!

 

[njvols]

Difficult looking back on it how a fellow who was all about the analytics could not grasp the data was telling him his team had an inordinate amount of injuries over several seasons. If he did not recognize it, then he missed the root cause as there's no evidence he corrected it at all.

Put this on top of poor "in game" coach (and staff, like rookie Scott w/ no track record and pretender like Shoop), and you've got a fired coach.

I know, you can say same about some of our current staff, being their first time at elevated positions ...I don't know how to say it, or if I'm right... but, it just "feels right" w/ this staff + unifying support of Fulmer. Guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

[savannahfan]

the butch affect... maybe

Or we are extremely unlucky

You make your own "lucky" or "unlucky"

 

[savannahfan]

Heh, you didn't "find" me, I walked right into the thread and pointed out you're not wearing any clothes.

So here's the challenge: get a list of the injuries for either the '16 or '17 season (or both, that'd be awesome).

Start with the first injury. Gather any reports you can find telling what happened. All the Ws: where (practice field? locker room? weight room? dorm room?) ... when (spring camp? off-season? fall camp? in season practice? during a game?) ... what (twisted ankle? knee? shoulder? concussion?) ... why and how?

That last part, that's the most important, though all the other Ws help to isolate on it. How did it happen, and why? Was it lack of fitness? poor execution of a football move the player should have known how to do better? impact with another player? if so, under what conditions? freak accident, like planting your foot and your knee trying to bend backwards from the way it should (think of Chubb)?

And on, and on.

Once you've figured out THE proximate cause of that injury, once you have it categorized, good job. Now start on the second one on the list.

Go all the way through the season's injuries. Once you've done that, find the patterns. Was there any one factor that popped up frequently? Two or more common themes?

Only after you've done that analysis will you know (not guess, know) why the Vols suffered so much more than our "fair share" those two years.

Until then, you have no clothes on. Pardon me for letting you know. You have no clothes on.



p.s. The "how and why" part will go MUCH better if you have training in medicine or sports physiology. Getting down to the proximate cause is tough enough with in-depth training; sometimes near impossible for us laymen.

To use an overused phrase, the "bottom line" line is not the how or why. The missed games happened regardless of how or why...

 

[savannahfan]

Wasn't half of Florida's team suspended last year or something like that for the credit card thing? If so that's crazy. Like I've said, I believe the issues were playing a small player system in a big player conference. The offense and defense that jones ran works fine when you have small agile players versus either small players or slow players. It works in smaller conferences just fine. When you have small fast players or try to do it with larger players that aren't as fast against sec competition that is big and fast, it's just not going to work for an extended period of time. Even if you outsmart or outrun them, the tackles are going to wear you out and injure you more than in other systems.

Big, fast, smart players will beat small, fast, smart players nearly every time.

 

[Roustabout]

Heh, you didn't "find" me, I walked right into the thread and pointed out you're not wearing any clothes.

So here's the challenge: get a list of the injuries for either the '16 or '17 season (or both, that'd be awesome).

Start with the first injury. Gather any reports you can find telling what happened. All the Ws: where (practice field? locker room? weight room? dorm room?) ... when (spring camp? off-season? fall camp? in season practice? during a game?) ... what (twisted ankle? knee? shoulder? concussion?) ... why and how?

That last part, that's the most important, though all the other Ws help to isolate on it. How did it happen, and why? Was it lack of fitness? poor execution of a football move the player should have known how to do better? impact with another player? if so, under what conditions? freak accident, like planting your foot and your knee trying to bend backwards from the way it should (think of Chubb)?

And on, and on.

Once you've figured out THE proximate cause of that injury, once you have it categorized, good job. Now start on the second one on the list.

Go all the way through the season's injuries. Once you've done that, find the patterns. Was there any one factor that popped up frequently? Two or more common themes?

Only after you've done that analysis will you know (not guess, know) why the Vols suffered so much more than our "fair share" those two years.

Until then, you have no clothes on. Pardon me for letting you know. You have no clothes on.



p.s. The "how and why" part will go MUCH better if you have training in medicine or sports physiology. Getting down to the proximate cause is tough enough with in-depth training; sometimes near impossible for us laymen.

Good lord, the douchiness of this post.
How about this, butch’s teams lacked in several fundamental areas, which likely contributed to the rash of injuries.

 

[Behr]

To use an overused phrase, the "bottom line" line is not the how or why. The missed games happened regardless of how or why...

Bottom line is it only matters now to "some of us".

 

[VolEngineer]

Big, fast, smart players will beat small, fast, smart players nearly every time.

Exactly. It's just not a system you can use in this conference unless you have the best athletes that also have size in your conference.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Bottom line is it only matters now to "some of us".

That's right.

For those who don't wonder what happened, who only know (and only care) that we had a lot of injuries, that we lost games we could probably have won without those injuries, and that the poor performance due in part to injuries resulted in the coaching staff being fired, there's nothing more than needs to be said. It is what it is, time to move on.

For those who remain curious as to the causes, well, we may never know. But nothing wrong with wondering.

 

[Iam4utalways]

I knew someone with ties to the band could clear up this great travesty bestowed upon our beloved university's unofficial fight song.

Thanks for the explanation. Now let's go find those scoundrels and hang them by their toenails!

Easy now. The Wooo is my 5 yr old twins’ favorite part. It’s the only part The VOL Baby(She’s only 1.) can get right. She does like to quack like a duck too.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Good lord, the douchiness of this post.
How about this, butch’s teams lacked in several fundamental areas, which likely contributed to the rash of injuries.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings; didn't mean to.

Only meant to point out the unknowns.

Fact is, there are a TON of unknowns about Butch's tenure, esp. the final year.

What we know is, the wheels fell off. We went 4-8 for the first time in history. We played horribly, on offense and on defense. There were very few bright spots in a long, ugly season.

We know quite a bit, or think we do, about the caliber of players on the roster. I mean, the amount of information available on college recruits these days is ... it's downright creepy. We know WAY too much about 17- and 18-year old players. And what we know indicates (despite the doubts engendered by a 4-8 campaign) that we do have good SEC talent on this roster. Did in '16 and '17, and mostly still do.

We also know of a number of specific questionable calls by the coaching staff. Based on those weird calls, we have a pretty good idea that Butch was not a good game-day coach, a good tactician. That Larry Scott was not a good offensive coordinator. That Bob Shoop did not, despite his reputation, deliver results while in Knoxville.

We suspect, with fairly widespread circumstantial evidence, that our players have been under-developed these past five years. I don't mean strength and conditioning, the evidence on that is weaker. I mean on the fundamentals of football...the skills needed at each position. The "how to" knowledge that comes from advanced coaching that should be a part of Power 5 football programs, but seems to have been missing at Tennessee.

We also know that there were an uncommonly high number of injuries, suffered in a wide variety of circumstances. We know by sheer logic that those injuries contributed to our poor team performances. We don't know WHY all those injuries occurred, but we can see the impact they had nonetheless.

...

So there's a considerable amount we do know, a lot more that we suspect based on the evidence available, and a significant amount that we simply don't know.

You and SJT have trumpeted certain knowledge about one of the areas we simply can't know without a lot more research and analysis. And I called you on it, like the little kid telling the emperor he's naked.

So...my apologies if that came across as douchy.

 

[Iam4utalways]

Seems like CJP summed it up pretty good.

Smaller players going against bigger players get hurt more than the bigger players.

The way JRM got after it against VT, I knew somebody was going to get hurt.

 

[Behr]

Sorry if I hurt your feelings; didn't mean to.

Only meant to point out the unknowns.

Fact is, there are a TON of unknowns about Butch's tenure, esp. the final year.

What we know is, the wheels fell off. We went 4-8 for the first time in history. We played horribly, on offense and on defense. There were very few bright spots in a long, ugly season.

We know quite a bit, or think we do, about the caliber of players on the roster. I mean, the amount of information available on college recruits these days is ... it's downright creepy. We know WAY too much about 17- and 18-year old players. And what we know indicates (despite the doubts engendered by a 4-8 campaign) that we do have good SEC talent on this roster. Did in '16 and '17, and mostly still do.

We also know of a number of specific questionable calls by the coaching staff. Based on those weird calls, we have a pretty good idea that Butch was not a good game-day coach, a good tactician. That Larry Scott was not a good offensive coordinator. That Bob Shoop did not, despite his reputation, deliver results while in Knoxville.

We suspect, with fairly widespread circumstantial evidence, that our players have been under-developed these past five years. I don't mean strength and conditioning, the evidence on that is weaker. I mean on the fundamentals of football...the skills needed at each position. The "how to" knowledge that comes from advanced coaching that should be a part of Power 5 football programs, but seems to have been missing at Tennessee.

We also know that there were an uncommonly high number of injuries, suffered in a wide variety of circumstances. We know by sheer logic that those injuries contributed to our poor team performances. We don't know WHY all those injuries occurred, but we can see the impact they had nonetheless.

...

So there's a considerable amount we do know, a lot more that we suspect based on the evidence available, and a significant amount that we simply don't know.

You and SJT have trumpeted certain knowledge about one of the areas we simply can't know without a lot more research and analysis. And I called you on it, like the little kid telling the emperor he's naked.

So...my apologies if that came across as douchy.

"Oh stfu, we don't want to discuss the 'whys' Butch sucked, We told you he did and even though you said he might but no one knows for sure yet, Some of us did. So, we were right and you were wrong for telling us we didn't " know", because obviously we did. Nana Nana boo boo."

 

[Iam4utalways]

"Oh stfu, we don't want to discuss the 'whys' Butch sucked, We told you he did and even though you said he might but no one knows for sure yet, Some of us did. So, we were right and you were wrong for telling us we didn't " know", because obviously we did. Nana Nana boo boo."

Is it still pronounced like nanny?

I say “Nana Nana boo boo” frequently, but pronounce it Nanny Nanny boo boo.

 

[Behr]

Is it still pronounced like nanny?

I say “Nana Nana boo boo” frequently, but pronounce it Nanny Nanny boo boo.

How do you say it one way but pronounce it another? I no unnerstandz.

I don't know. As a kid I always thought it was Nana nana. I see Nanner Nanner around here though.

Type it or say it however you want, Ill know what it means.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

Sorry if I hurt your feelings; didn't mean to.

Only meant to point out the unknowns.

Fact is, there are a TON of unknowns about Butch's tenure, esp. the final year.

What we know is, the wheels fell off. We went 4-8 for the first time in history. We played horribly, on offense and on defense. There were very few bright spots in a long, ugly season.

We know quite a bit, or think we do, about the caliber of players on the roster. I mean, the amount of information available on college recruits these days is ... it's downright creepy. We know WAY too much about 17- and 18-year old players.

We also know of a number of specific questionable calls by the coaching staff. Based on those weird calls, we have a pretty good idea that Butch was not a good game-day coach, a good tactician. That Larry Scott was not a good offensive coordinator. That Bob Shoop did not, despite his reputation, deliver results while in Knoxville.

We suspect, with fairly widespread circumstantial evidence, that our players have been under-developed these past five years. I don't mean strength and conditioning, the evidence on that is weaker. I mean on the fundamentals of football...the skills needed at each position. The "how to" knowledge that comes from advanced coaching that should be a part of Power 5 football programs, but seems to have been missing at Tennessee.

We also know that there were an uncommonly high number of injuries, suffered in a wide variety of circumstances. We know by sheer logic that those injuries contributed to our poor team performances. We don't know WHY all those injuries occurred, but we can see the impact they had nonetheless.

...

So there's a considerable amount we do know, a lot more that we suspect based on the evidence available, and a significant amount that we simply don't know.

You and SJT have trumpeted certain knowledge about one of the areas we simply can't know without a lot more research and analysis. And I called you on it, like the little kid telling the emperor he's naked.

So...my apologies if that came across as douchy.

The termination of Lawson and the promotion of Szerszen (who somehow, looks to be in worse shape than me) was the beginning of the end. Butch has even admitted as much that the team didn't take S&C seriously enough after the 2015 season.

From this article....

Inside the failing of Tennessee Volunteers football under Butch Jones

Looking back, several people associated with the program tied the underachieving 2016 season to discipline issues stemming from a staff change earlier in the year.

Strength coach Dave Lawson, who had worked with Jones for nearly a decade, was phased out in the spring. Lawson was replaced by his top assistant, Michael Szerszen.

Some sources told us Lawson tired of Jones meddling with his program, with resulting friction sometimes causing the two to butt heads. Others told us that veteran players partially influenced the final decision to fire Lawson; they didn’t like Lawson and wanted him out. The news of Lawson’s dismissal was first reported in April.

Hood, the former Volunteers defensive lineman, said Lawson was “hands down” the best strength coach he had at Tennessee. And due to the three staff changes during his playing career, Hood had five different strength coaches.

Without Lawson, who is also widely respected in the coaching industry, the strength program wobbled and discipline waned along with it.

“The effort in the weight room wasn’t up to an SEC standard,” one Tennessee source said, adding that basic training elements were missing.

Those sources told us that spring practice suffered as a result, as did training during the summer months. Something seemed off in preseason camp, as well.

“In the progression of a team, we didn’t fulfill some of the necessary steps,” a source close to the team said. “We didn’t give ourselves a regular season.”

A central theme, represented there, is a culture that allotted players — especially veteran players who were pieces of those top-rated recruiting classes — too much control.

“It was appeasing them rather than toughening them up,” one UT staffer said.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

"Oh stfu, we don't want to discuss the 'whys' Butch sucked, We told you he did and even though you said he might but no one knows for sure yet, Some of us did. So, we were right and you were wrong for telling us we didn't " know", because obviously we did. Nana Nana boo boo."

Heh, I stand corrected.

I need a drink. :hi: