Lawless not on campus, future uncertain

[Roustabout]

So if Kennedy Transfers here we will know Lawless won't, right? Since there's no way to take both??

Huh?
How does a 18 signee (who counts regardless) have to do with a grad transfer who will count against the 19 class?

Am I missing something here?

 

[butchna]

Huh?
How does a 18 signee (who counts regardless) have to do with a grad transfer who will count against the 19 class?

Am I missing something here?

Deerpark asserts that you can’t have more than 25 scholarship enrollees regardless of which class they’re credited to, in a given year.

 

[jasonvol18]

Huh?
How does a 18 signee (who counts regardless) have to do with a grad transfer who will count against the 19 class?

Am I missing something here?

Yesterday Deer Park posted there was another rule about signing 25 guys in one cycle, not the same as per class. But he said we only had room for 1 more and sounds like that spot is for Kennedy. I am unfamiliar with it so I can't really offer up much on it.

 

[Roustabout]

Yesterday Deer Park posted there was another rule about signing 25 guys in one cycle, not the same as per class. But he said we only had room for 1 more and sounds like that spot is for Kennedy. I am unfamiliar with it so I can't really offer up much on it.

Well, that's not how recruiting works. Lawless signed. He counts against the 25 regardless.

 

[butchna]

Well, that's not how recruiting works. Lawless signed. He counts against the 25 regardless.

You’re missing the fine distinction of ENROLLEES. No MORE than 25 per season...per Deerpark.

 

[jasonvol18]

Well, that's not how recruiting works. Lawless signed. He counts against the 25 regardless.

Oh I know and that's a scholly we lose in the '18 class but he and Kennedy couldn't both enroll no matter how they tried to twist it.L lawless doesn't count the enrollee number if he isn't on campus, just the scholly numbers. GFW says Kennedy gets announced by the weekend so Lawless won't be enrolling this year.

 

[RockyTopTexas]

I do follow it and know the hype that was fan and media created. But our Coach's had no faith in Litaker being healthy enough to contribute and weren't as high on Lawless either as they are Emerson. Just like the instate '19 class. Our coach's aren't very high on many of them and are much higher on the '20 instate class. I wish all 3 could have been 3-4 yr starter's here.Our staff won't take guys they don't believe will help win just like most kids won't go play in a system they don't fit in. Unless you're Hurd and have a HC telling you what you wanna here. I much prefer JP's way of doing it even if it can come across as wrong. But his job is dependent on getting his type of players and not bring in players just to appease fans or boost class rankings. If he fails here, he can atleast say he did it with his guys and not ones he brought in to make a few fans or HS Coach's happy.

And that’s how it should be. Pru should only bring in guys that will contribute to his philosophy.. it’s just crazy how the hype went from 100 to 0 in a matter of months

 

[DeerPark12]

Well, that's not how recruiting works. Lawless signed. He counts against the 25 regardless.

Yes and no. He counts against the 25 signees regardless, he doesn't count against the 25 enrolees if he never comes. That would allow a grad transfer to come in that they would technically blueshirt and count against the 2019 class from a scholarship standpoint.

 

[DeerPark12]

So if Kennedy Transfers here we will know Lawless won't, right? Since there's no way to take both??

That is my understanding of the situation, yes.

 

[Tidal Surge]

You’re missing the fine distinction of ENROLLEES. No MORE than 25 per season...per Deerpark.

I think there's some work-around for enrolling up to 28 per academic year. One is blueshirting. Another is backcounting up to 3 early enrollees into unused prior year(s) initial counter spots.

Idk squat about UT's numbers, so Idk if that matters or helps concerning whether or not there's room for Kennedy and Lawless to both enroll.

 

[butchna]

I think there's some work-around for enrolling up to 28 per academic year. One is blueshirting. Another is backcounting up to 3 early enrollees into unused prior year(s) initial counter spots.

Idk squat about UT's numbers, so Idk if that matters or helps concerning whether or not there's room for Kennedy and Lawless to both enroll.

If what Deerpark states is true, then blueshirting wouldn’t be a factor. It’s 25 ENROLLEES in an academic year. And from what I understand backcounting is no longer allowed. Not that it would help US because we’ve had full classes the last 3-4 seasons...nothing to backcount.

 

[DeerPark12]

I think there's some work-around for enrolling up to 28 per academic year. One is blueshirting. Another is backcounting up to 3 early enrollees into unused prior year(s) initial counter spots.

Idk squat about UT's numbers, so Idk if that matters or helps concerning whether or not there's room for Kennedy and Lawless to both enroll.

Backcounting is not allowed any longer, but UT has had 25 initial counters every year since 2014, so it would be a moot point for UT regardless.

 

[butchna]

There’s an echo in here. :unsure:

 

[cHiZzLeVOL]

There’s an echo in here. :unsure:

Butchna to Deerpark.....

 

[DeerPark12]

There’s an echo in here. :unsure:

Sorry, I think I was typing when you were posting. Didn't see yours.

 

[Tidal Surge]

Backcounting is not allowed any longer, but UT has had 25 initial counters every year since 2014, so it would be a moot point for UT regardless.

Though NCAA Bylaws don't call it "backcounting" mid-academic-year enrollees are an initial counter for the current academic year if the 25 IC spots haven't all been used. So, 2019 signees who are early enrollees can "backcount" against any unused 2018 IC spots.
Here's the pertinent section of the NCAA Bylaws:

15.5.6.3.2 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering After Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters after the first term of the academic year and immediately receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) shall be an initial counter for either the current academic year (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or the next academic year. The student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

 

[Tidal Surge]

This pertains to what's commonly called blueshirting:

15.5.6.3.4 Nonrecruited Student-Athlete Receiving Institutional Financial Aid. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete not recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the institution who receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) after beginning football practice becomes a counter but need not be counted as an initial counter until the next academic year if the institution has reached its initial limit for the year in question. However, the student-athlete shall be considered in the total counter limit for the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

 

[Tidal Surge]

Here's the "meat" of the rules pertaining to the 25/85 limitations. Consider bookmarking or copying and saving it. It comes in handy.

NCAA Bylaws

15.02.8 Recruited Student-Athlete. For purposes of Bylaw 15, a recruited student-athlete is a student-athlete who, as a prospective student-athlete: (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
(a) Was provided an official visit to the institution’s campus;
(b) Had an arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with a member of the institution’s coaching staff (including a coach’s arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with the prospective student-athlete or the prospective student-athlete’s parents, relatives or legal guardians); or
(c) Was issued a National Letter of Intent or a written offer of athletically related financial aid by the institution for a regular academic term.

15.5.6 Football Limitations.

15.5.6.1 Bowl Subdivision Football. [FBS] There shall be an annual limit of 25 on the number of initial counters (per Bylaw 15.02.3.1) and an annual limit of 85 on the total number of counters (including initial counters) in football at each institution. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/92, 12/15/06)

15.5.6.3 Initial Counters—Football (Also see Bylaw 15.02.3.1).

15.5.6.3.1 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering in Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters in the fall term and receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) during the first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that year in football. Therefore, such aid shall not be awarded if the institution has reached its limit on the number of initial counters prior to the award of institutional financial aid to the student-athlete.(Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.2 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering After Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters after the first term of the academic year and immediately receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) shall be an initial counter for either the current academic year (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or the next academic year. The student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.3 Recruited Student-Athlete, Aid Received After First Year. [FBS/FCS] A recruited student-athlete (per Bylaw 15.02.8) (including a student-athlete who was not a qualifier) who first receives athletically related financial aid after the student-athlete’s first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that academic year in which the aid is first received, if such aid is received during the fall term. However, such a student athlete who first receives athletically related financial aid in the second or third term of an academic year may be considered an initial counter during the academic year in which aid was first received or the next academic year. In either case, the student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/3/06, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.4 Nonrecruited Student-Athlete Receiving Institutional Financial Aid. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete not recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the institution who receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) after beginning football practice becomes a counter but need not be counted as an initial counter until the next academic year if the institution has reached its initial limit for the year in question. However, the student-athlete shall be considered in the total counter limit for the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.5 Midyear Replacement. [FBS/FCS] A counter who graduates at midyear or who graduates during the previous academic year (including summer) may be replaced by an initial counter, who shall be counted against the initial limit either for the year in which the aid is awarded (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or for the following academic year, or by a student-athlete who was an initial counter in a previous academic year and is returning to the institution after time spent on active duty in the armed services or on an official religious mission. In bowl subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year to the maximum number of overall counters (85 total counters). In championship subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year that equals the maximum number of overall equivalencies or overall counters. (Revised: 4/20/99 effective 8/1/99, 6/8/99, 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01, 8/2/05, 12/15/06, 1/14/08 effective 8/1/08, 4/2/10, 1/15/11)

15.5.6.3.6 Aid First Awarded After Second Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete who has been in residence at the certifying institution for at least two academic years may receive athletically related financial aid for the first time without such aid counting as an initial award, provided the aid falls within the overall grant limitation. (Adopted: 1/11/89, Revised: 1/10/90 effective 8/1/90)

15.5.6.3.7 Recruited Student-Athlete, Varsity Competition. [FBS/FCS] In accordance with Bylaw 15.5.1.2, a recruited student-athlete (per Bylaw 15.02.8) receiving institutional financial aid certified as having been granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability becomes an initial counter in the first academic year in which the student-athlete competes on the varsity level. (See Bylaw 15.5.1.2.1.) (Revised: 10/27/05 effective 8/1/06, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.8 Returning Two-Year Transfer. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete who previously was an initial counter and who transferred to a two-year college shall not be an initial counter upon return to the original institution.

15.5.6.3.9 Delayed Initial Counter Who Does Not Return to School. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete who receives countable financial aid but whose status as an initial counter under this bylaw is delayed until the following academic year shall be counted against the initial limit the following academic year, regardless of whether the student-athlete reports for participation or attends the institution in that academic year.

15.5.6.4 Exceptions.

15.5.6.4.1 Voluntary Withdrawal. [FBS/FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws from the football team by providing the financial aid to another student who already has enrolled in the institution and is a member of the football squad. For this replacement to occur, the counter must withdraw prior to the first day of classes or before the first game of the season, whichever is earlier, and provide the institution with a signed statement releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. The institution may immediately (beginning with the fall term) award the financial aid to a student-athlete who has been a member of the team for at least one academic year and has not previously received athletically related financial aid. A student-athlete who has not been a member of the team for at least one academic year may not receive the financial aid during the fall term, but may receive it in a following term (e.g., spring semester, winter quarter). (Revised: 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05)

 

[DeerPark12]

Though NCAA Bylaws don't refer to it as "backcounting" mid-academic-year enrollees are an initial counter for the current academic year if the 25 IC spots haven't all been used:

15.5.6.3.2 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering After Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters after the first term of the academic year and immediately receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) shall be an initial counter for either the current academic year (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or the next academic year. The student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

The revisions in 2017 changed that and instituted the 25 in a calendar (in addition to the 25/academic year) year:

"13.9.2.3 Limitation on Number of National Letter of Intent/Offer of Financial Aid Signings—Bowl
Subdivision Football. [FBS] In bowl subdivision football, there shall be an annual limit of 25 on the number of prospective student-athletes who may sign a National Letter of Intent or an institutional offer of financial aid and student-athletes who may sign a financial aid agreement for the first time. [D] (Revised: 4/26/17 effective 8/1/17 for signings that occur on or after 8/1/17)"

13.9.2.3.1 Application. [FBS] A prospective student-athlete who signs a National Letter of Intent or
an institutional offer of financial aid or a student-athlete who signs a financial aid agreement that specifies financial aid will be initially provided in the fall term of an academic year shall count toward the annual limit on signings for that academic year. A prospective student-athlete who signs a National Letter of Intent or an institutional offer of financial aid or a student-athlete who signs a financial aid agreement that specifies financial aid will be initially provided during the second or third term of the academic year may count toward the limit for that academic year or the limit for the next academic year. (Revised: 4/26/17 effective 8/1/17 for signings that occur on or after 8/1/17)

 

[Tidal Surge]

The revisions in 2017 changed that and instituted the 25 in a calendar (in addition to the 25/academic year) year:

"13.9.2.3 Limitation on Number of National Letter of Intent/Offer of Financial Aid Signings—Bowl
Subdivision Football. [FBS] In bowl subdivision football, there shall be an annual limit of 25 on the number of prospective student-athletes who may sign a National Letter of Intent or an institutional offer of financial aid and student-athletes who may sign a financial aid agreement for the first time. [D] (Revised: 4/26/17 effective 8/1/17 for signings that occur on or after 8/1/17)"

13.9.2.3.1 Application. [FBS] A prospective student-athlete who signs a National Letter of Intent or
an institutional offer of financial aid or a student-athlete who signs a financial aid agreement that specifies financial aid will be initially provided in the fall term of an academic year shall count toward the annual limit on signings for that academic year. A prospective student-athlete who signs a National Letter of Intent or an institutional offer of financial aid or a student-athlete who signs a financial aid agreement that specifies financial aid will be initially provided during the second or third term of the academic year may count toward the limit for that academic year or the limit for the next academic year. (Revised: 4/26/17 effective 8/1/17 for signings that occur on or after 8/1/17)

I don't see the words "calendar year" in the ByLaws sections you posted. What you posted seems to be consistent with the section that I posted. Even if there is a calendar year limit of 25 signees, since 2019 cycle early enrollees sign in December, it appears to me they can still count against any of 2018's unused IC spots.
:toast: Thanks for posting that. I copied it to keep with my stash of what I posted above.

 

[Bobo0101]

In for a summary of the last 5 posts

 

[HoleInTheRoof]

Didn't UGA just sign 26 guys this past cycle?

 

[butchna]

Didn't UGA just sign 26 guys this past cycle?

At least one is starting out at JUCO.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

If he wins, the rest of us will care as much about that as he does.

No doubt. The vast majority of the fanbase won't care what he does as long as he's winning. If he doesn't win though, every one of his flaws will be magnified.

 

[butchna]

No doubt. The vast majority of the fanbase won't care what he does as long as he's winning. If he doesn't win though, every one of his flaws will be magnified.

So we’re where we started.