Iran nuclear program. It is a lie

#627
#627
Persian Vol said:
The ****
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I don't go out of my way to insult people (except sometimes know it all yankees), and that comment was just one of many others referencing dropping a baby on it's head and later effects. However, I don't mind saying what I believe about other countries - most certainly don't mind saying what they feel about mine.

The Iranians I've met have generally been a step above most of the people I've met from other middle eastern countries; my animosity is toward the Iranian government - and any totalitarian government - religious or otherwise. Intolerance is intolerance - religious or otherwise.

Iran was one of the more enlightened countries at a time before religious zealots felt it their place to tell a country what to think, how to think, etc. It's no different than the stranglehold Catholicism had on Europe centuries ago - an act that stifled thought and development.

To me, perhaps the greatest absurdity and contradiction in the world is that of religious intolerance. That religion would seek to run states - dictating thoughts and actions, prosecuting and punishing those who "sin", and even wage war in the name of "righteousness" is simply beyond belief.

That may not be a very diplomatic or elegant way of saying it, but that's the way it is.
 
#629
#629
AM64 said:
I don't go out of my way to insult people (except sometimes know it all yankees), and that comment was just one of many others referencing dropping a baby on it's head and later effects. However, I don't mind saying what I believe about other countries - most certainly don't mind saying what they feel about mine.

The Iranians I've met have generally been a step above most of the people I've met from other middle eastern countries; my animosity is toward the Iranian government - and any totalitarian government - religious or otherwise. Intolerance is intolerance - religious or otherwise.

Iran was one of the more enlightened countries at a time before religious zealots felt it their place to tell a country what to think, how to think, etc. It's no different than the stranglehold Catholicism had on Europe centuries ago - an act that stifled thought and development.

To me, perhaps the greatest absurdity and contradiction in the world is that of religious intolerance. That religion would seek to run states - dictating thoughts and actions, prosecuting and punishing those who "sin", and even wage war in the name of "righteousness" is simply beyond belief.

That may not be a very diplomatic or elegant way of saying it, but that's the way it is.
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I don’t disagree with any of this, but not sure how most of this relates to what I said before.
 
#630
#630
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm going to keep it 100... if even a fraction of what has been posted about Iran was even said about Israel (or hell, possibly even the Saudis), these same guys would be yelling and screaming anti-Semitism. But you can attack Iranians, Africans... hell, even white people in the western world all you want.
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Omg, not you too.

eZzm_f-maxage-0_s-200x150.gif
 
#632
#632
Rasputin_Vol said:
The day I see Crimean riots for independence, I will take that as proof of his dictatorship.
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People don't tend to demonstrate much against rulers with present or past KGB credentials - something about preferring to breathe air rather than sarin. Reports of those little demonstrations (lessons to those who strayed from the party line) in Britain and elsewhere get back to them and keep them enlightened.
 
#633
#633
AM64 said:
People don't tend to demonstrate much against rulers with present or past KGB credentials - something about preferring to breathe air rather than sarin. Reports of those little demonstrations (lessons to those who strayed from the party line) in Britain and elsewhere get back to them and keep them enlightened.
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Putin was a translator with the KGB. Don't make him out to be some John Wick assassin or something.

And with all of these tactics used against Putin, you would think there would be more fear over a guy like George H.W. Bush who was a CIA director. How much blood is on his hands?
 
#634
#634
Rasputin_Vol said:
Putin was a translator with the KGB. Don't make him out to be some John Wick assassin or something.

And with all of these tactics used against Putin, you would think there would be more fear over a guy like George H.W. Bush who was a CIA director. How much blood is on his hands?
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That we know (About Putin).




I would love, absolutely love to be able to know what H.W. knows. That dude had quite the life.
 
#635
#635
AM64 said:
I'm not really disagreeing with you, but atrocious behavior is often defined by the historical period. Things we see as atrocities today were often simply the custom of the time when they happened. An example of that would be colonialism - a couple of hundred years ago most developed countries thought nothing of basically enslaving a lesser developed country and taking what they wanted or needed. Nobody outside the middle east and Africa is doing that much these days.
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I appreciate that point, but it's also worth appreciating that not every culture or people are on the same point on the timeline. Just because we've concluded that certain behavior we've previously condoned is no longer moral doesn't mean that everyone else has reached that conclusion or should assume we're right. Case in point, Christian treatment of women in the not so distant past vs treatment in certain Muslim populations presently. Christian men forced women to wear long dresses, not work outside of the home, not be seen with men other than their husbands, etc. Presuming our cultural values and wisdom should be imposed on others is arrogant.
 
#636
#636
Rasputin_Vol said:
This entire blow up started because of me criticizing the USA's support of Shah Pahlavi. So right off the bat, you assertion is bogus.
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So Ras..Do I have this right?

Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the last Shah of Iran had his chance to mold Iran into a peaceful modern moslem country with his "White (meaning bloodless) Revolution". There were many good projects. His land reform even freed the peasants bound to the land. But he didn't forsee the anger these freed farmers would have. He used his massive wealth for such things as spending almost 1.25 Billion in todays dollars on the 2500 year celebration of the continuous reign of the Persian Empire, which further angered many more of the people of Iran. There was much more basic infrastructure he could have provided, sewers, schools, power...

But it was his lavish lifestyle, and the fact he was enabled by 'The West', especially in later years America, is the reason so many Iranians hate America now.

In the mid 80's I met an engineering student at the snack bar under South College. His father had been with the Iranian consulate during the overthrow and they could not return home. He loved his country. He yearned to hear his own language. But he thought the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in the backlash of the revolution with the return of
Ayatollah Khomeini from exile would never allow thm to go home.
The USA did support the Shah, but it was the rise of the lower classes who for generation upon generation had been bound to the land and now freed, but given no real political voice through a republic or democracy. So it was them and the fundamentalists against the secular middle and upper classes that drove the revolution.
 
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#637
#637
Vol_Doc said:
I appreciate that point, but it's also worth appreciating that not every culture or people are on the same point on the timeline. Just because we've concluded that certain behavior we've previously condoned is no longer moral doesn't mean that everyone else has reached that conclusion or should assume we're right. Case in point, Christian treatment of women in the not so distant past vs treatment in certain Muslim populations presently. Christian men forced women to wear long dresses, not work outside of the home, not be seen with men other than their husbands, etc. Presuming our cultural values and wisdom should be imposed on others is arrogant.
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OK, you are right about that. I'm normally the one telling others you can't judge the past with present standards, and I guess you can't argue against others' customs. So how do we get liberals to accept that the US isn't Europe - that we set our own standards differently so drop the comparison and quit trying to force someone else's norms on us? If we accept Islam for what it is, then what about some of the tribal or gang atrocities in Africa? If we accept what we consider barbaric punishment like Islamic stoning, can we really draw the line at genocide?

I'm not arguing against your point because it's a good one; perhaps we should revert to isolationism and accept the world as it is. Then we don't need to consider saving people from themselves - which is a losing proposition anyway - frequently paid with the lives of our own.

The interesting thing is that I'm reading a book about Russia in 1920, and one of the themes has to do with the Russians attempting to change Islamic behavior toward women - it doesn't seem like in a hundred years that anyone has made much progress. Like perhaps the thing about bombing them back to the stone age is immaterial because they are largely still there.
 
#638
#638
Rasputin_Vol said:
Putin is not a dictator. Didn't you know he just got inaugurated after elections recently? They love him over there.
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You deny he's a dictator.



You do not deny gargling his balls... :question:


Possible Ras has been doing a little dictasting of his own?:eek:hmy:



:birgits_giggle:
 
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#639
#639
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm going to keep it 100... if even a fraction of what has been posted about Iran was even said about Israel (or hell, possibly even the Saudis), these same guys would be yelling and screaming anti-Semitism. But you can attack Iranians, Africans... hell, even white people in the western world all you want.
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I believe in teasing everyone. I often wonder why people expect Israel to give back territories. Have people forgotten their Jews? They don't give away anything.



Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week.
 
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#641
#641
IPleadInsanity said:
Plan B is to let those Euro countries who are anxious to do business with them, that are in range of their potential nuclear missiles, and Israel worry about Iran. Why is it our problem to solve? They can't hit us and we can take them out in 5 minutes with a sub. They are realizing this as we speak.
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You do understand the concept of nuclear proliferation right? If Iran develops a bomb and is dead set on harming our country, what's to stop them from secretly providing them to their most rabid allies like Hezbollah? And distance is of little prevention if they stow away a bomb on a cargo freighter and detonate it in a major city's harbor.

No, the key to preventing such scenarios is preventing them from getting the bomb in the first place. How did our "hard line" approach work out with North Korea? Trump is walking down the very same path.
 
#642
#642
OuterBanksVol said:
You do understand the concept of nuclear proliferation right? If Iran develops a bomb and is dead set on harming our country, what's to stop them from secretly providing them to their most rabid allies like Hezbollah? And distance is of little prevention if they stow away a bomb on a cargo freighter and detonate it in a major city's harbor.

No, the key to preventing such scenarios is preventing them from getting the bomb in the first place. How did our "hard line" approach work out with North Korea? Trump is walking down the very same path.
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What color do you see here?

blue-sky-clouds.jpg
 
#643
#643
AM64 said:
It has amazed me for years why we jump in to solve problems that could harm the European countries that frequently destabilized the places to begin with. Let the people who cobbled together ill fitting pieces into problematic countries deal with it themselves - yeah, Britain we are looking mostly at you - and France and Germany.
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Right... isolationism is a swell policy.

See: WWI and WWII.

Many Americans wanted to avoid getting involved in 2 because the remembered 1 and felt it was a Europe problem. Reality: Had Germany developed the bomb before we did, we might all be speaking German these days.
 
#645
#645
AM64 said:
OK, you are right about that. I'm normally the one telling others you can't judge the past with present standards, and I guess you can't argue against others' customs. So how do we get liberals to accept that the US isn't Europe - that we set our own standards differently so drop the comparison and quit trying to force someone else's norms on us? If we accept Islam for what it is, then what about some of the tribal or gang atrocities in Africa? If we accept what we consider barbaric punishment like Islamic stoning, can we really draw the line at genocide?

I'm not arguing against your point because it's a good one; perhaps we should revert to isolationism and accept the world as it is. Then we don't need to consider saving people from themselves - which is a losing proposition anyway - frequently paid with the lives of our own.

The interesting thing is that I'm reading a book about Russia in 1920, and one of the themes has to do with the Russians attempting to change Islamic behavior toward women - it doesn't seem like in a hundred years that anyone has made much progress. Like perhaps the thing about bombing them back to the stone age is immaterial because they are largely still there.
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Rather than isolationist, I'd call it leading by example. Let other peoples rise up and create change as they see fit, rather than assuming they want our way of life and imposing it through military force. Support them diplomatically. We are not capable of fixing the world. Nation building only creates new problems. In fact, many of the problems we're dealing with we helped create. Perfect example is Osama Bin Laden.
 
#649
#649
Vol_Doc said:
Rather than isolationist, I'd call it leading by example. Let other peoples rise up and create change as they see fit, rather than assuming they want our way of life and imposing it through military force. Support them diplomatically. We are not capable of fixing the world. Nation building only creates new problems. In fact, many of the problems we're dealing with we helped create. Perfect example is Osama Bin Laden.
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eeeeeeeeeeeyup
 
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