China says relations with Russia at 'best level in history'

#2
#2
We are losing world status rapidly. Russia has been taking our place on the world stage for the past 9 years. China is now poised to do the same.
 
#3
#3
We are losing world status rapidly. Russia has been taking our place on the world stage for the past 9 years. China is now poised to do the same.
And we outspend the next 8 countries behind us in defense EVERY YEAR--China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, India, France, UK, Germany, and Japan. Think about that.
 
#7
#7
And we outspend the next 8 countries behind us in defense EVERY YEAR--China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, India, France, UK, Germany, and Japan. Think about that.

Money and weapons aren't everything. This country has no integrity and no scruples.
 
#11
#11
Compared to.... Russia and China :confused:

Let that sink in. All of the red, white and blue bunting, flag waving and USA chanting doesn't make us great. It used to be that we had some level of integrity. We don't honor any treaties or agreements and we have our military scattered all across the globe getting into affairs that are not of our concern.
 
#12
#12
Bureaucratic nonsense, F-35, vaperware and military social engineering.

And, even when we cut away from the straight nonsense, we still spend a significant amount on things that are not connected to readiness, effectiveness, firepower; that is, things not connected to winning on the battlefield.
 
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#13
#13
And, even when we cut away from the straight nonsense, we still spend a significant amount on things that are not connected to readiness, effectiveness, firepower; that is, things not connected to winning on the battlefield.

Not sure where you’re going with this. But we do spend a huge amount these days on ISR equipment, technology, and personnel. These do impact readiness and effectiveness just prior and during a conflict to help understand the battlespace. But I would submit their more common application is peacetime surveillance.
 
#14
#14
What do we spend this money on?
The military-industrial complex.

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The Pentagon's budget is divided into: (Most to least)
1. Operations and maintenance
2. Military personnel
3. Procurement
4. R&D, testing, evaluation
5. Military construction
6. Family housing
7. Other associated cost
8. Atomic energy defense
9. Defense related activity
 
#17
#17
Not sure where you’re going with this. But we do spend a huge amount these days on ISR equipment, technology, and personnel. These do impact readiness and effectiveness just prior and during a conflict to help understand the battlespace. But I would submit their more common application is peacetime surveillance.

Correct, but so do Russia and China. Here are some differences in the spending though, that have nothing to do with the effectiveness of the product.

1. Soldier pay. We pay our soldiers a great deal more than the Russians and Chinese. In fact, I would not be surprised if, per soldier, we pay more than both Russia and China combined.

2. Materials cost. Our contracts for military contractors who produce these things require that these contractors spend more money on the materials they use than is required in Russia and China. We require our contractors to use US steel, and our government does not get that steel at a discount. Russia and China certainly rely on their own ore deposits, for the most part, and their own forges, for the most part, for their materials. Yet, most of these are nationalized, so they are paying a great discount. At the end of the day, Russia and China have the (nearly) same quality steel, but at a significantly reduced cost.

3. Labor costs. Our contracts for military contractors also require that these companies use domestic labor. And, the use of domestic labor means, in the US, that they are paying a premium. Again, in Russia and China, they may be using domestic labor, but such labor is often coerced and they are paying a discount.

4. Safety costs. Our contracts...require that the production facilities not only comply with US safety requirements but, often, exceed such requirements. Again, this entails paying a premium. Russia and China are not paying these premiums.

5. Toxic Waste and Chemical Disposal. Our contracts...require that these producers comply with very stringent requirements regarding the proper disposal of toxic and chemical waste. This is costly. As such, we pay a premium. Russia and China do not pay that premium.

These five areas impose huge financial burdens, and those financial burdens are a part of the costs that go into these comparisons (and, I haven't even included the requirements around food at mess halls and cafeterias in posts and in these production facilities, the requirements around disposal of oil in motor pools, etc.). We can go down the line of everything we spend in order to gain an advantage of combat and we will find that we are paying premiums for this where Russia and China are getting discounts.

That is, there is no way to simply look at military spending and then assert that it somehow will or, even in theory, should positively correlate with combat effectiveness.
 
#19
#19
Im glad their relationship has improved.
1. Why should I care?
2. Why should I believe the claim?
 
#20
#20
Awesome news.

Not sure Russia s vodka demand is enough to sustain your manufacturing base though, China. So this is meaningless.
 
#21
#21

No, Ras is somewhat correct. Our national stature was diminished in the Vietnam quagmire and we certainly let the world have their way with us in the 70s. The 80s brought back the "don't eff with us or else" mentality we used to have, but we've been in a steady decline since then.

I blame "nation building" for the most part. We used to go in and immolate other nations and have them rebuild. Not so much now.
 
#22
#22
No, Ras is somewhat correct. Our national stature was diminished in the Vietnam quagmire and we certainly let the world have their way with us in the 70s. The 80s brought back the "don't eff with us or else" mentality we used to have, but we've been in a steady decline since then.

I blame "nation building" for the most part. We used to go in and immolate other nations and have them rebuild. Not so much now.

Agreed. We should simply be setting an example, rather than imposing our ideology on others.
 
#23
#23
Agreed. We should simply be setting an example, rather than imposing our ideology on others.

Agree to an extent. I do think the problem is feeling we "have" to do something about the situation and exporting American style democracy to the rest of the world when sometimes they just don't want it.

Yeah, our form of Republic tends to work, but won't work for everyone. Take Japan as an example. We left the Emperor in "charge" even though he was generally powerless after WWII. It was still important as the Japanese chose the duties the office would carry out, provided the Shinto Doctrine forced that change. Regardless, it was a smart move to continue some traditions like that position and not shove our form of government down their throats.
 
#24
#24
In a long term world view, I've always thought that China is the biggest threat to the USA. Aside from trade, we have nothing between us. We could both live free from one another, especially if we had to.

Russia on the other hand, I've felt would make for the best ally for us versus China.

Geographically, they provide a barrier to Europe. They also offer a barrier to the Mideast. As a good ally, they also would allow a "first strike" target for China and allow the USA to operate with a stronger foothold in that area of the world.

We obviously do not share much in terms of culture (except in the fact that most Russian citizens would love to have our form of Government and economy and ability to live a better life), but, obviously politically they are closer to China than us and more so resemble a mob controlled oligarchy.

If we found a way, just as with Japan, and again, we are closer to the Japanese in terms of political philosophy, but, if we had a good relation with Russia, it would provide a great ally, and a good foothold, against the Chinese.

Russia is what it is, a mid level economy, equal to Italy. Which is just unreal, so, they would look to gain as much as we do from aligning and finding ways to align ourselves. Problem is building that country up and then having a more severe threat, but, if we could keep relations as allies, it would do nothing but help in dealing with the Chinese.

I have a feeling China will become what Japan was before and leading up to WWII. They will be able to almost unnoticeabley be able to expand and demand greater power and footholds over the far east.

So, my question for the guys who know militarily, TRUT, Grand, a few others, why wouldn't we want this?
 
#25
#25
No, Ras is somewhat correct. Our national stature was diminished in the Vietnam quagmire and we certainly let the world have their way with us in the 70s. The 80s brought back the "don't eff with us or else" mentality we used to have, but we've been in a steady decline since then.

I blame "nation building" for the most part. We used to go in and immolate other nations and have them rebuild. Not so much now.

I can agree with that.
 
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