Pope: There Is No Hell

#553
#553
Roustabout said:
You need to examine your position.

You're claims lead to either that or that a believer can lose their salvation due to their lack of compliance to some standard.
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It does no such thing. You are reaching there. :crazy:
 
#554
#554
DinkinFlicka said:
As do I.

I look forward to sharing whisky with the stepdad every week and helping mom with whatever projects she has going on.
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Wouldn't it be better spend eternity in heaven with them? :hi:


Mark 8:36-37 (KJV)
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

What could possibly be worth dying and spending eternity in the lake of fire?
 
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#557
#557
BigO95 said:
It does no such thing. You are reaching there. :crazy:
Click to expand...

How so?

Let's say I offer you $1 million as a gift. I want you to have this gift, but if you want it you have to do somethings.
One, you can never cuss again, ever. If you do, I get all the money back.
Two, you can't get drunk.
Three, you can't...
Four......
Five...

Is that gift? No, it's a bilateral contract based on performance. Should the gift change you? It depends what you mean by change. If you know those things offend me, then you OUGHT to avoid them. And, by receiving your gift, it will likely give me a different perspective. But as soon as I require a performance list, it is no longer a gift, but a religious contract.

It doesn't matter whether you preface the conditions up front (here's your list). Or, if you smuggle them in the back door. "If truly believe then the result will be 'fill in the bank's behavior modification.

For example, Mormons and Muslims Dona much better job with behavior modification than many if not most Christians. Is it that they need to ADD Jesus to their performance, or are they just as lost as the most degenerate sinner?
 
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#560
#560
The other option is that God supernaturally changes my brain chemistry to make me incapable of any lifestyle of sin. Of course, you'd have to define the threshold of what constitutes a lifestyle.

The other thing is what about alcoholics? Are they garaunteed deliverance if they commit to Christ?

What may be easy for you and me (not getting drunk) may be completely different struggle for someone else? So, you are going to lord your standard over them?
 
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#561
#561
Roustabout said:
How so?

Let's say I offer you $1 million as a gift. I want you to have this gift, but if you want it you have to do somethings.
One, you can never cuss again, ever. If you do, I get all the money back.
Two, you can't get drunk.
Three, you can't...
Four......
Five...

Is that gift? No, it's a bilateral contract based on performance. Should the gift change you? It depends what you mean by change. If you know those things offend me, then you OUGHT to avoid them. And, by receiving your gift, it will likely give me a different perspective. But as soon as I require a performance list, it is no longer a gift, but a religious contract.

It doesn't matter whether you preface the conditions up front (here's your list). Or, if you smuggle them in the back door. "If truly believe then the result will be 'fill in the bank's behavior modification.

For example, Mormons and Muslims Dona much better job with behavior modification than many if not most Christians. Is it that they need to ADD Jesus to their performance, or are they just as lost as the most degenerate sinner?
Click to expand...

I have never said salvation wasn't a free gift from God. Nor have I ever even hinted that man does not have a free will. You have jumped to a false conclusion about me yet again. I do however claim that when God the Holy Ghost lives within a man it will make him different. If you don't understand that simple truth, then you know nothing about the new birth spoken of in John chapter number 3.
 
#562
#562
BigO95 said:
I have never said salvation wasn't a free gift from God. Nor have I ever even hinted that man does not have a free will. You have jumped to a false conclusion about me yet again. I do however claim that when God the Holy Ghost lives within a man it will make him different. If you don't understand that simple truth, then you know nothing about the new birth spoken of in John chapter number 3.
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I think I understand it very well. And, yes, I agree with a person being different. However, I see that difference as imputed righteousness, not a supplementation of the will.
 
#564
#564
Roustabout said:
I think I understand it very well. And, yes, I agree with a person being different. However, I see that difference as imputed righteousness, not a supplementation of the will.
Click to expand...

Why is it so hard for you to see that when God the Holy Ghost takes up residence in a persons life that it directly affects your behavior? What you really believe will directly affect what you do as well. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Christ, the author of the bible, and the same God that lives in other believers that bears witness to the truth of the bible. So is it not reasonable to think that when a man gets saved that he will love Jesus, the brethren and the bible? Be careful how you answer seeing I have bible for all three.
 
#565
#565
Orangeslice13 said:
Most don’t know where the line is and according to Messiah there will be many shocked to find out they’re not “Christian” enough to get in.


That’s Mathew 7

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigO95 View Post
Keep twisting the scriptures, you will stand before God for your teaching as well as I.


Orange_Crush said:
"Twisting scriptures" is defining the Kingdom of God, as Jesus Himself used it, and giving verses within that context, as well as the context they are given within their book?

Seems to me you get rattled by correct division of scripture and refuse to answer very simple, direct questions... Like...

Considering Jesus' use of "Kingdom of God" as having come upon the earth when He was bringing liberation to spiritual captives, how can you continue to define it as "the eternal paradise where teetotalers go"?
Click to expand...


OC,

There are already false teachers in the Church (the Apostles / NT writers warned the churches about this, in many of their letters) -- and Matt 7:15 speaks about them.

The context of Matt 7:21 as quoted above, seems to be heaven.

As for "paradise" -- the Church recognizes that Christ spoke to the thief on the cross, describing "today you shall be with me...in paradise."

As for "eternal" -- the Church recognizes that Christ said "the righteous to eternal life" (Matt 25:46) and supported by Titus 1:2 ("in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time").
 
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#566
#566
Rex...

So, you are saying that the Kingdom of God is heaven, yet Jesus said that it had come with His earthly ministry of liberation. You have some 'splaining to do.

Could it be that the Kingdom of God is His sovereign, powerful rule, as I already showed? Which would include the freedom of the demoniac on earth, the Spirit-empowered life unto sanctification on earth, and the absolute sovereign rule of God in heaven?

If it is a reference to the sovereign rule of God and all of the freedom/benefits that come with it, then all of the above are truly the "Kingdom of God". If it is only heaven, then two are not, despite Jesus' testimony.

A Volkswagon is a car, yet all cars are not Volkswagons.

Heaven will be the Kingdom of God, yet all Kingdom of God is not heaven. That is how it can be here, yet coming.

Now, with logic in order and corrected, what is the context of Big's quotes within their arguments? That should be the pertinent question? And once answered, to keep him honest to his own standard and logic per whether a Christian can ever [insert pet sin], or if a drunkard can be saved (i.e. go to heaven).

Is it possible for a Christian to be fearful, or would that prove a lack of salvation? Can the fearful go to heaven?

Is it possible for a Christian to lie, or would that prove a lack of salvation? Is it possible for liars to go to heaven?

Is it possible for a Christian to have an impure thought, or is that proof of lack of salvation? Is it possible for that person to go to heaven?

[[[If your answer to any of these was that, yes, it is possible for a Christian to do one of these, and also possible for one to do this and still get to heaven, then consider that by choosing to sin, one is rejecting God's rule--sin is rebellion against God--and is also cheating oneself of temporal blessings of a moral life--i.e. they will pay the temporal price for sin while being eternally saved (i.e not inherit the benefits of God's rule).]]]

Are all of these in the same list as drunkards, when Big posted those scriptures per drunkards? Did he ever think about the repercussions to that argument?

(By his logic, any one of these common sins proves lack of salvation and disinherits from heaven.)

He's painting a HUGE excluded middle. He's being incredibly intellectually dishonest with his arguments.

On one hand, he's said that a Christian can't get drunk, or he's not a Christian. He's said that a professing believer is demonstrably a false convert if he sips a beer in a Chilis. (Yes, he made that argument.)

Yet, when called on his works-based, legalistic view/teaching on salvation, he falls back to "hey, all I'm saying is that Jesus changes us when we are saved, and if you disagree with me you are a false teacher that condones sin and believes God doesn't change Christians."

He is arguing for MUCH more than "God changes people", and to point that out is MUCH different than condoning sin, promoting it into people's life, or claiming that we don't believe the doctrine of sanctification..

Big is either a liar, or is so far removed from sound logic (the removal of his excluded middles) that he is completely blind to what he's doing. Either way, he appears immune to rational discussion.
 
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#567
#567
Roustabout said:
The other option is that God supernaturally changes my brain chemistry to make me incapable of any lifestyle of sin. Of course, you'd have to define the threshold of what constitutes a lifestyle.
Click to expand...
The old sin nature is still there and it still causes us to slip up. When that happens it grieves the Holy Spirit within us and our conscience is burdened. If a person is ableto live a life in perpetual sin and it doesn't bother their conscience, then I would be very concerned.


Roustabout said:
The other thing is what about alcoholics? Are they garaunteed deliverance if they commit to Christ?
Click to expand...
I can only speak for myself, but He absolutely delivered me from alcohol addiction. It was hard and painful, but it was only by His power that I was able to overcome it.
 
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#568
#568
BigO95 said:
Why is it so hard for you to see that when God the Holy Ghost takes up residence in a persons life that it directly affects your behavior? What you really believe will directly affect what you do as well. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Christ, the author of the bible, and the same God that lives in other believers that bears witness to the truth of the bible. So is it not reasonable to think that when a man gets saved that he will love Jesus, the brethren and the bible? Be careful how you answer seeing I have bible for all three.
Click to expand...
The HS OUGHT to affect our behavior.
The believer has the potential to lean on, or be filled by the HS. The believer also has the potential to grieve or quench the spirit. I'm sure you are familiar with those verses, yes? Be careful how you answer......

Further, this is not a light switch effect. Young believers have to be instructed on taking on the mind of Christ and yielding to the spirit. If not, Paul's letters would be a couple of sentences. Otherwise, why do believers have to be reminded that they have the HS, or their imputed righteousness. Why would Paul have to instruct the brethren to not be conformed any longer.......Or, why would they need scripture at all, if the HS once indwelling the believer makes all of this evident and natural?

The reason is you are distorting what indwelling means. For example, when the HS came on the disciples at pentecost it had a very specific effect that was beyond the volition of the disciples. Cause and effect.

Some denominations conflate this to be how all believers are impacted by the HS and even make speaking in tongues orthodoxy. Hey, it's right there in God's word. So is selling all you have and giving it to the poor. Jesus' own words. Have you done that?

Beyond that, you haven't addressed my specific questions. What about the alcoholic? Are they instantly cured when they believe, yes or no? What about a heroine addict. Would genuine faith be a guarantee to alleviate the physical drug dependency? Yes or no?
 
#569
#569
Orange_Crush said:
Rex...

So, you are saying that the Kingdom of God is heaven, yet Jesus said that it had come with His earthly ministry of liberation. You have some 'splaining to do.

Could it be that the Kingdom of God is His sovereign, powerful rule, as I already showed? Which would include the freedom of the demoniac on earth, the Spirit-empowered life unto sanctification on earth, and the absolute sovereign rule of God in heaven?

If it is a reference to the sovereign rule of God and all of the freedom/benefits that come with it, then all of the above are truly the "Kingdom of God". If it is only heaven, then two are not, despite Jesus' testimony.

A Volkswagon is a car, yet all cars are not Volkswagons.

Heaven will be the Kingdom of God, yet all Kingdom of God is not heaven. That is how it can be here, yet coming.

Now, with logic in order and corrected, what is the context of Big's quotes within their arguments? That should be the pertinent question? And once answered, to keep him honest to his own standard and logic per whether a Christian can ever [insert pet sin], or if a drunkard can be saved (i.e. go to heaven).

Is it possible for a Christian to be fearful, or would that prove a lack of salvation? Can the fearful go to heaven?

Is it possible for a Christian to lie, or would that prove a lack of salvation? Is it possible for liars to go to heaven?

Is it possible for a Christian to have an impure thought, or is that proof of lack of salvation? Is it possible for that person to go to heaven?

[[[If your answer to any of these was that, yes, it is possible for a Christian to do one of these, and also possible for one to do this and still get to heaven, then consider that by choosing to sin, one is rejecting God's rule--sin is rebellion against God--and is also cheating oneself of temporal blessings of a moral life--i.e. they will pay the temporal price for sin while being eternally saved (i.e not inherit the benefits of God's rule).]]]

Are all of these in the same list as drunkards, when Big posted those scriptures per drunkards? Did he ever think about the repercussions to that argument?

(By his logic, any one of these common sins proves lack of salvation and disinherits from heaven.)

He's painting a HUGE excluded middle. He's being incredibly intellectually dishonest with his arguments.

On one hand, he's said that a Christian can't get drunk, or he's not a Christian. He's said that a professing believer is demonstrably a false convert if he sips a beer in a Chilis. (Yes, he made that argument.)

Yet, when called on his works-based, legalistic view/teaching on salvation, he falls back to "hey, all I'm saying is that Jesus changes us when we are saved, and if you disagree with me you are a false teacher that condones sin and believes God doesn't change Christians."

He is arguing for MUCH more than "God changes people", and to point that out is MUCH different than condoning sin, promoting it into people's life, or claiming that we don't believe the doctrine of sanctification..

Big is either a liar, or is so far removed from sound logic (the removal of his excluded middles) that he is completely blind to what he's doing. Either way, he appears immune to rational discussion.
Click to expand...

I understand it just fine, I said that a social drinker is as kin to a drunkard as a little piglet is to a hog. I said that a believer can take a drink if he wants to but will face the chastisement of God if he chooses to do so. If he is not chastened for the social drinking he is not a child of God. Drinking alcohol is sinful anyway you slice it.
As for my so called legalistic view of scriptures I think you are a bleeding heart liberal that probably needs a good dose of Holy Ghost salvation. I have given you sound scripture and you refuse to believe it and twist everything I say to fit your distorted view of the bible. You clearly do not understand what it means to be born again. You probably have a head knowledge of God but do not have him in your heart. Trying to make a lost person understand the new birth is like trying to explain colors to a blind man that has never seen the light of day. You can't possibly understand until you experience it.
I also made the claim that someone is born again they will have different actions in their life, they will be different in how they live and again you argued against that. If nothing changed in their life, they are still lost period. To teach otherwise is rank heresy!!!
2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV)
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Revelation 21:8 (KJV)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Why don't you go ahead and twist these scriptures as well?

Revelation 22:14-15 (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Using your logic about drunkards, why don't you refute these lifestyles as well?

I dare you to try to say this isn't talking about heaven!!!!
 
#570
#570
Roustabout said:
The HS OUGHT to affect our behavior.
The believer has the potential to lean on, or be filled by the HS. The believer also has the potential to grieve or quench the spirit. I'm sure you are familiar with those verses, yes? Be careful how you answer......

Further, this is not a light switch effect. Young believers have to be instructed on taking on the mind of Christ and yielding to the spirit. If not, Paul's letters would be a couple of sentences. Otherwise, why do believers have to be reminded that they have the HS, or their imputed righteousness. Why would Paul have to instruct the brethren to not be conformed any longer.......Or, why would they need scripture at all, if the HS once indwelling the believer makes all of this evident and natural?

The reason is you are distorting what indwelling means. For example, when the HS came on the disciples at pentecost it had a very specific effect that was beyond the volition of the disciples. Cause and effect.

Some denominations conflate this to be how all believers are impacted by the HS and even make speaking in tongues orthodoxy. Hey, it's right there in God's word. So is selling all you have and giving it to the poor. Jesus' own words. Have you done that?

Beyond that, you haven't addressed my specific questions. What about the alcoholic? Are they instantly cured when they believe, yes or no? What about a heroine addict. Would genuine faith be a guarantee to alleviate the physical drug dependency? Yes or no?
Click to expand...

Have you not read my previous posts? The drunkard when they get saved will have a new life in Christ. The drug addict will no longer be a drug addict if they are truly born again. I have been very adamant about this. It's called a new birth!
Now if they chose to resort back to that lifestyle then they will face the chastening hand of God. Otherwise, they are tares or false converts.
 
#571
#571
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
The old sin nature is still there and it still causes us to slip up. When that happens it grieves the Holy Spirit within us and our conscience is burdened. If a person is ableto live a life in perpetual sin and it doesn't bother their conscience, then I would be very concerned.



I can only speak for myself, but He absolutely delivered me from alcohol addiction. It was hard and painful, but it was only by His power that I was able to overcome it.
Click to expand...

This is absolutely 100% correct.
 
#572
#572
BigO95 said:
Have you not read my previous posts? The drunkard when they get saved will have a new life in Christ. The drug addict will no longer be a drug addict if they are truly born again. I have been very adamant about this. It's called a new birth!
Now if they chose to resort back to that lifestyle then they will face the chastening hand of God. Otherwise, they are tares or false converts.
Click to expand...
Well, you are a false prophet as this is a blatant distortion of God's word. What a horrible burden you have placed on people who come to Christ with real afflictions like drug addiction. If you aren't instantly reprogrammed to be a non addict then you aren't saved.
That's extremely harmful. And then u immediately contradict yourself by agreeing with a post that says the sin nature remains. New??
 
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#573
#573
Roustabout said:
Well, you are a false prophet as this is a blatant distortion of God's word. What a horrible burden you have placed on people who come to Christ with real afflictions like drug addiction. If you aren't instantly reprogrammed to be a non addict then you aren't saved.
That's extremely harmful.
Click to expand...

Quiet the contrary, you are giving lost people a false security! You are preaching dangerous doctrine!
 
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#574
#574
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
The old sin nature is still there and it still causes us to slip up. When that happens it grieves the Holy Spirit within us and our conscience is burdened. If a person is ableto live a life in perpetual sin and it doesn't bother their conscience, then I would be very concerned.



I can only speak for myself, but He absolutely delivered me from alcohol addiction. It was hard and painful, but it was only by His power that I was able to overcome it.
Click to expand...
We'd all be concerned. But we have no way of knowing how God may be dealing with that person. The Bible even speaks of believer sinning unto death and the elect being deceived.

Regarding your addiction? Do you think u deserve salvation because you overcame alcoholism? What about the one who still struggles. Do you deserve salvation and they don't?

According to 95, you shouldnt even struggle. Why was it hard?
 
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