Pope: There Is No Hell

#477
#477
Orange_Crush said:
Once again, you are being disingenuous to the discussion.

You claim that it is a sin to drink alcohol. That is a false teaching.

The problem that your interpretation creates per a drunk going to heaven... You think that someone who believes in Jesus, yet gets drunk, won't go to heaven because they got drunk. The flip side of that logic is that you thus believe that you will go to heaven because you don't get drunk.

You just offered a Jesus-plus-me salvation. So, don't get mad at me for calling you a false teacher. Get mad at Paul, who would tell you to cut your manhood off and burn in hell.

On second thought, compared to him, I think I showed a great deal of restraint.

By the way, can you show me where the Bible says that no drunkards will go to heaven? Thanks.
Click to expand...

A drunkard can get saved and go to heaven, but he won't be a practicing drunkard anymore at that point. Can he relapse and go back to being a drunkard? He sure can, but at a heavy price. Chastisement, and possibly an early grave, but still saved. :hi: Now then, a lifestyle of continually after salvation is another story. A man that his life never changed is lost, so twist it, skew it any way you want to, but that's sound theology, anything different is false.
Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV)
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


:hi: Romans 6:1-2 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
 
#479
#479
BigO95 said:
A drunkard can get saved and go to heaven, but he won't be a practicing drunkard anymore at that point. Can he relapse and go back to being a drunkard? He sure can, but at a heavy price. Chastisement, and possibly an early grave, but still saved. :hi: Now then, a lifestyle of continually after salvation is another story. A man that his life never changed is lost, so twist it, skew it any way you want to, but that's sound theology, anything different is false.
Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV)
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


:hi: Romans 6:1-2 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Click to expand...

Yikes!
Reform your behavior or you can't/won't get to heaven. That is works salvation.

So, New creature equals behavior modification, and not a declaration of Christ's mercy and our resulting imputed righteousness?

What about gluttons and cigarette smokers?
 
#480
#480
Roustabout said:
Yikes!
Reform your behavior or you can't/won't get to heaven. That is works salvation.

So, New creature equals behavior modification, and not a declaration of Christ's mercy and our resulting imputed righteousness?

What about gluttons and cigarette smokers?
Click to expand...

I think this is where a lot of people get tripped up. Repentance is the result of salvation, not the cause of it.
 
#481
#481
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
I think this is where a lot of people get tripped up. Repentance is the result of salvation, not the cause of it.
Click to expand...

I've have to hear more about how you are using and defining the term. Do you think repentance means behavior modification?

Repentance is often included as a command, before salvation. Mark 1:5
"Repent and believe."
 
#482
#482
BigO95 said:
A drunkard can get saved and go to heaven, but he won't be a practicing drunkard anymore at that point. Can he relapse and go back to being a drunkard? He sure can, but at a heavy price. Chastisement, and possibly an early grave, but still saved. :hi: Now then, a lifestyle of continually after salvation is another story. A man that his life never changed is lost, so twist it, skew it any way you want to, but that's sound theology, anything different is false.
Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV)
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


:hi: Romans 6:1-2 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Click to expand...

Nothing there says that either:

(A) A Christian ceases sinning at salvation.
(B) No drunkard will go to heaven.

At this point, you should probably define the "Kingdom of God", which you are erroneously defining as "heaven".

Jesus said:

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Click to expand...

If the Kingdom of God had come while Jesus was casting out demons 2000 years ago, then surely the Kingdom of God was not "heaven". Instead, the Kingdom of God was God's rule, authority... It was expressed at that moment in the liberation from the captivity to demon possession.

So, was Paul saying that drunkards would not go to heaven? Obviously not. Taking in the context of Jesus' usage of the phrase, as well as the context of 1 Corinthians, it seems much more likely that Paul was saying that those who continue sinning are choosing to exempt themselves of the benefits of the freedom that comes with Godly rule in their life.

This corresponds nicely to the fullness of Paul's theology... i.e that we are saved by Grace through faith, not of ourselves, but as a gift from God. That we are no longer known by our sin, but by Christ's imputed righteousness. That, once we were slaves to our sin nature, but by the rule of Christ and the power of His indwelling Spirit, we are freed from slavery to sin and freed to live by the Spirit.

It also makes sense in the context of the book of Corinthians, from which you've wrenched it from its proper context. He wrote them to correct them. He's correcting them because they are carnal/fleshly:

And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?
Click to expand...

Yet, even as sinful, fleshly, carnal, immature Christians, they are still Christians and will go to heaven.

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Click to expand...

So, Paul wrote to a sinful, immature church, filled with people who were walking by the flesh and not by the Spirit. he admonished them to walk by the freedom and liberty of the Spirit, while assuring them that they will go to heaven.

Yet, in the midst of this message, you latched onto your pet "drunkardness" argument, and thought it meant that these people wouldn't go to heaven... Once again, you haven't done due diligence to search out the meaning within context, and instead teach the teachings of man as though they are the word of God.

The drunkard, in choosing a life of habitual slavery, is literally not inheriting the Kingdom of God and all that comes with it. He'll be saved if his faith is in Christ, but it will be as though by fire, and unto fewer rewards than a life that walks in His freedom, by the Spirit.
 
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#483
#483
Orange_Crush said:
Nothing there says that either:

(A) A Christian ceases sinning at salvation.
(B) No drunkard will go to heaven.

At this point, you should probably define the "Kingdom of God", which you are erroneously defining as "heaven".

Jesus said:



If the Kingdom of God had come while Jesus was casting out demons 2000 years ago, then surely the Kingdom of God was not "heaven". Instead, the Kingdom of God was God's rule, authority... It was expressed at that moment in the liberation from the captivity to demon possession.

So, was Paul saying that drunkards would not go to heaven? Obviously not. Taking in the context of Jesus' usage of the phrase, as well as the context of 1 Corinthians, it seems much more likely that Paul was saying that those who continue sinning are choosing to exempt themselves of the benefits of the freedom that comes with Godly rule in their life.

This corresponds nicely to the fullness of Paul's theology... i.e that we are saved by Grace through faith, not of ourselves, but as a gift from God. That we are no longer known by our sin, but by Christ's imputed righteousness. That, once we were slaves to our sin nature, but by the rule of Christ and the power of His indwelling Spirit, we are freed from slavery to sin and freed to live by the Spirit.

It also makes sense in the context of the book of Corinthians, from which you've wrenched it from its proper context. He wrote them to correct them. He's correcting them because they are carnal/fleshly:



Yet, even as sinful, fleshly, carnal, immature Christians, they are still Christians and will go to heaven.



So, Paul wrote to a sinful, immature church, filled with people who were walking by the flesh and not by the Spirit. he admonished them to walk by the freedom and liberty of the Spirit, while assuring them that they will go to heaven.

Yet, in the midst of this message, you latched onto your pet "drunkardness" argument, and thought it meant that these people wouldn't go to heaven... Once again, you haven't done due diligence to search out the meaning within context, and instead teach the teachings of man as though they are the word of God.

The drunkard, in choosing a life of habitual slavery, is literally not inheriting the Kingdom of God and all that comes with it. He'll be saved if his faith is in Christ, but it will be as though by fire, and unto fewer rewards than a life that walks in His freedom, by the Spirit.
Click to expand...

Youre an asset to this board, OC.

Appreciate you.
 
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#485
#485
Roustabout said:
I've have to hear more about how you are using and defining the term. Do you think repentance means behavior modification?

Repentance is often included as a command, before salvation. Mark 1:5
"Repent and believe."
Click to expand...

Yes. We repent because Christ has delivered us from sin. Is it truly deliverance if we keep on living in the same sinful lifestyle?

Here's the thing. It is the Holy Spirit who brings us to the place where we no longer desire to live that former lifestyle. On our own we are incapable of repentance.
 
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#491
#491
Orange_Crush said:
Nothing there says that either:

(A) A Christian ceases sinning at salvation.
(B) No drunkard will go to heaven.

At this point, you should probably define the "Kingdom of God", which you are erroneously defining as "heaven".

Jesus said:



If the Kingdom of God had come while Jesus was casting out demons 2000 years ago, then surely the Kingdom of God was not "heaven". Instead, the Kingdom of God was God's rule, authority... It was expressed at that moment in the liberation from the captivity to demon possession.

So, was Paul saying that drunkards would not go to heaven? Obviously not. Taking in the context of Jesus' usage of the phrase, as well as the context of 1 Corinthians, it seems much more likely that Paul was saying that those who continue sinning are choosing to exempt themselves of the benefits of the freedom that comes with Godly rule in their life.

This corresponds nicely to the fullness of Paul's theology... i.e that we are saved by Grace through faith, not of ourselves, but as a gift from God. That we are no longer known by our sin, but by Christ's imputed righteousness. That, once we were slaves to our sin nature, but by the rule of Christ and the power of His indwelling Spirit, we are freed from slavery to sin and freed to live by the Spirit.

It also makes sense in the context of the book of Corinthians, from which you've wrenched it from its proper context. He wrote them to correct them. He's correcting them because they are carnal/fleshly:



Yet, even as sinful, fleshly, carnal, immature Christians, they are still Christians and will go to heaven.



So, Paul wrote to a sinful, immature church, filled with people who were walking by the flesh and not by the Spirit. he admonished them to walk by the freedom and liberty of the Spirit, while assuring them that they will go to heaven.

Yet, in the midst of this message, you latched onto your pet "drunkardness" argument, and thought it meant that these people wouldn't go to heaven... Once again, you haven't done due diligence to search out the meaning within context, and instead teach the teachings of man as though they are the word of God.

The drunkard, in choosing a life of habitual slavery, is literally not inheriting the Kingdom of God and all that comes with it. He'll be saved if his faith is in Christ, but it will be as though by fire, and unto fewer rewards than a life that walks in His freedom, by the Spirit.
Click to expand...

Keep twisting the scriptures, you will stand before God for your teaching as well as I. :hi:
 
#492
#492
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
Yes. We repent because Christ has delivered us from sin. Is it truly deliverance if we keep on living in the same sinful lifestyle?

Here's the thing. It is the Holy Spirit who brings us to the place where we no longer desire to live that former lifestyle. On our own we are incapable of repentance.
Click to expand...

Repentance is evidence of true faith. God changed my want to when he saved my soul. Truly I didn't want to sin anymore.
 
#494
#494
BeecherVol said:
Do you still sin now?
Click to expand...

I do, but not a continual lifestyle of sin, there is a vast difference. I never said that a believer is perfect, just has a different walk after salvation. A different outlook on life if you will. A new will to live for Jesus.
 
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#495
#495
When God saved me, he took all the fun out of sin for me. I no longer want to do sinful things. God lives on the inside now and I want to please him more than anything. Pleasing God brings much joy. Telling others how to be saved and helping those that can't help themselves. That brings great joy, living by the book brings great joy as well!
 
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#496
#496
BigO95 said:
I do, but not a continual lifestyle of sin, there is a vast difference. I never said that a believer is perfect, just has a different walk after salvation. A different outlook on life if you will. A new will to live for Jesus.
Click to expand...

Im affiliated.

Just curious as to "want" to sin but still yet continuing to in different ways. When you sin now is it a conscience choice that you make? Or a mistake because you didn't "want" to anymore due to not being perfect?
 
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#497
#497
this thread has taken an interesting turn. from Catholic bashing to two non Catholics having a bible fight.
 
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#498
#498
BeecherVol said:
Im affiliated.

Just curious as to "want" to sin but still yet continuing to in different ways. When you sin now is it a conscience choice that you make? Or a mistake because you didn't "want" to anymore due to not being perfect?
Click to expand...

Sometimes it's slip up, and sometimes a conscience decision in a moment of weakness. A believer can be carnally minded as Paul plainly taught in the scriptures. Romans chapters 6-8 gives great detail of this.
God the Holy Ghost lives on the inside of a believer and gets grieved when we do wrong. I know when I do wrong, God lets me know. At the same time I have a new nature on the inside that makes me want to do right.
 
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#499
#499
It's not my will to want to do wrong anymore. I used to drink and gamble and fornicate and so on and liked what I was doing just fine. Since salvation, I simply don't want to do those things anymore. Used to, I didn't want to read my bible and pray or go to church and now I do. I care about spiritual things now whereas before salvation I didn't.
 
#500
#500
BigO95 said:
Sometimes it's unknowingly, and sometimes a conscience decision in a moment of weakness. A believer can be carnally minded as Paul plainly taught in the scriptures. Romans chapters 6-8 gives great detail of this.
God the Holy Ghost lives on the inside of a believer and gets grieved when we do wrong. I know when I do wrong, God lets me know. At the same time I have a new nature on the inside that makes me want to do right.
Click to expand...

At what point does "grieved" go too far? In the sense that, the moments of weakness become too frequent.
Im trying to get a better understanding of this before I judge someone on what God is or isn't going to do when that day comes for them.
 
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