Pope: There Is No Hell

[BigO95]

Nothing in that passage literally says that they were drinking juice. Everything in that passage points to alcoholic wine as the most reasonable interpretation.

Nothing there proves that it was alcohol either.

 

[therealUT]

Did Mosaic Law forbid or discourage alcohol consumption? I remember something about a tithe for alcohol.

They also had to tithe and sacrifice goats. And, the tithed alcohol went to the high priests in the temple.

 

[therealUT]

Nothing there proves that it was alcohol either.

Correct. I've given possible interpretations. The alcoholic one makes sense, the other is just silly.

 

[mrorange211]

As the new kid on the block, why can't it just be love for Jesus and that's it? Where do all of these moral laws come from that dictate what I can and cannot do if Jesus didn't address it?

 

[McDad]

They also had to tithe and sacrifice goats. And, the tithed alcohol went to the high priests in the temple.

Do you recall offhand what the Law of Moses stated about alcohol? I dont feel like looking it up.

 

[McDad]

As the new kid on the block, why can't it just be love for Jesus and that's it? Where do all of these moral laws come from that dictate what I can and cannot do if Jesus didn't address it?

Loving God, serving people who are in need, keeping his commandments and sharing the life of Christ is about the best one can do.

 

[Wafflestomper]

Food is necessary for life, alcohol isn't.

Can't sin if I'm in a coma!

 

[therealUT]

Oh, you guys are no longer thirsty? Here's 3,000 more cups of grape juice. And, seeing that it's grape juice and there's no refrigeration, it'll go bad by tomorrow. Drink up, mother ****ers, for I'm not in the business of wasting miracles.

Or, here's 3,000 more cups of wine. It will remain consumable, with no refrigeration, for a few days, so that we few in Cana can continue to enjoy it and celebrate this occasion well into the week.

One of these is absurd.

 

[hog88]

As the new kid on the block, why can't it just be love for Jesus and that's it? Where do all of these moral laws come from that dictate what I can and cannot do if Jesus didn't address it?

:good!:

Since my wife is the front person for a Jewish mob family I've got to spend some time with several orthodox Jews over the last few years. They've explained to me (can't remember all since we were usually drinking) the Kosher rules. I can't help but think that many if not all make sense for a time of poor sanitation and inability to preserve meat.

I think some of our Christian rules are derived from the same mindset of trying to maintain an orderly and healthy community.

 

[BigO95]

Correct. I've given possible interpretations. The alcoholic one makes sense, the other is just silly.

To me, it sounds silly for God to give a bunch of drunk people more alcohol when the old testament already said not to even look at wine when it is in the fermented process according to the Proverbs.

 

[Obsessed]

To me, it sounds silly for God to give a bunch of drunk people more alcohol when the old testament already said not to even look at wine when it is in the fermented process according to the Proverbs.

That was for the Jews. The Old Testament is their book(s). Not ours...

 

[BigO95]

As the new kid on the block, why can't it just be love for Jesus and that's it? Where do all of these moral laws come from that dictate what I can and cannot do if Jesus didn't address it?

Loving God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself is about the best anyone can do. Find out what God likes and do a lot of it. Also find what he don't like and avoid it like the plague.

 

[BigO95]

That was for the Jews. The Old Testament is their book(s). Not ours...

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[BigO95]

Oh, you guys are no longer thirsty? Here's 3,000 more cups of grape juice. And, seeing that it's grape juice and there's no refrigeration, it'll go bad by tomorrow. Drink up, mother ****ers, for I'm not in the business of wasting miracles.

Or, here's 3,000 more cups of wine. It will remain consumable, with no refrigeration, for a few days, so that we few in Cana can continue to enjoy it and celebrate this occasion well into the week.

One of these is absurd.

It didn't have to be alcohol to be preserved. you should study the preservation of the juice a little bit closer. :hi:

 

[BigO95]

Flame away, I'll be back in a little while. By the way, I appreciate the good conversation.

 

[Roustabout]

So, basically, from about 500-1500 AD, the John story was about vino and the guests were inebriati (inebriated). That is, the Word of God, according to the Bible, was that the guests were drunk and Jesus gave them more wine. That was the translation God wanted at the time.

Now, God wants a new story and so has chosen a new translation, in which we should think the guests were merely not thirsty and Jesus gave them some Welch's grape juice.

That makes sense. Maybe next year it will be chocolate milk.

It was Ocean Spray

 

[barknoxbrawler]

I can't help but think that, that gives man authority picking and choosing what the word of God is instead of the bible being the final authority. It seems that God should have final say instead of man. when you have multiple translations, you definitely have to pick and choose what YOU THINK is the word of God.

Here is what I believe. If the word of God is ordained by Him (which it is), and He is all powerful, then all translations are what He wants it to be.

All translations point to Jesus and His servanthood.

 

[roosterjbh]

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

You don’t wanna go there bud...there’s some things in the Old Testament that may complicate some stuff for ya

 

[therealUT]

To me, it sounds silly for God to give a bunch of drunk people more alcohol when the old testament already said not to even look at wine when it is in the fermented process according to the Proverbs.

Right, even though the Jews have continued the tradition of filling the seder cup with alcoholic wine and the drinking from the seder cup is a central part of the seder meal and the celebration of passover. This tradition, among the Jews, who are quite familiar with the Old Testament, has only been around for something like 2,500 years.

But, the Jews, who never know their Torah, never know the Psalms and its place a a celebration of the five books of the Torah broken down over five books of the Psalms, each book corresponding to the themes in each of the books of the Torah, and never know the Proverbs.

They obviously don't know what they are doing and are obviously violating their own religious canon in drinking alcoholic wine.

And, Jesus, who was a good Jew, said, "The seder cup? **** that nonsense, I'll fill mine with grape juice".

 

[therealUT]

Do you recall offhand what the Law of Moses stated about alcohol? I dont feel like looking it up.

Offhand, I can't give you the exact scripture verse. But, as tithes worked in the Mosaic Law, they worked as follows:

Take your x, give a portion (and the best portion) of x to the priests and Levites and/or sacrifice it at the Temple (in which, afterward, the priests would eat the meat from the sacrifice).

There is nothing about pouring all your wine out at the Temple.

Thus, the tithes on wine would have been the following:

Take a portion of the wine you produce and give it to the priests and Levites to enjoy.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I can't help but think that, that gives man authority picking and choosing what the word of God is instead of the bible being the final authority. It seems that God should have final say instead of man. when you have multiple translations, you definitely have to pick and choose what YOU THINK is the word of God.

The problem with your logic is that the Bible doesn't claim the KJV to be the final authority and Word of God.

You suffer from your own criticism. You chose the KJV Bible above the other choices.

 

[Orange_Crush]

The same can be said of the KJV. It is a translation from the original Greek and Hebrew into the common language spoken by the people of the time. The KJV that is in common use today is not the original 1611 translation, but a revision that was done in 1789. The original 1611 is so archaic that it is nearly unreadable today.

The newer translations out there now are the same. They are translated from the original manuscripts into the common language of the day.

Let me ask you this. If God is capable of guiding men who are earnestly seeking after Him to translate His Word from one language to another some 400 years ago, is He not capable of doing the same today?

Interestingly enough, in the 1611 foreward, the translators made the claim that their translation wasn't the only good one, and made the argument for multiple translations, which honors God.

 

[therealUT]

It didn't have to be alcohol to be preserved. you should study the preservation of the juice a little bit closer. :hi:

Correct, you could reduce it to a syrup. As such, you would probably be using less than an ounce of grape syrup for an entire beverage of grape juice, after mixing it with water. That is, now we are talking about Jesus making either of the following:

3,000-4,000 cups of grape juice, ready to drink without mixing with water, which would go bad in a day

Or,

20,000 plus cups of grape juice, in reduced/concentrated form.

So, it's in the realm of possibilities.

Yet, remember, the servant dips the ladle right into the jugs and tastes. Since, dipping a ladle right into the syrup and tasting would have been extremely odd, it seems, again, like the most reasonable interpretation would be that he made the 3,000-4,000 ready to drink drinks.

Yet, this would entail that these drinks would not be such as to be preserved very long. So, again, Jesus would be wasting a great deal, since, on the grape juice interpretation, the saying of the servant can only be understood as, "The guests are no longer very thirsty".

On the wine interpretation, the saying of the servant need not be understood as, "The guests are no longer thirsty", thus, we can understand both that more of the wine made would be consumed that night than if it were grape juice and the leftover alcoholic wine would preserve better.

Got any more brain busters for me?

 

[BigO95]

Correct, you could reduce it to a syrup. As such, you would probably be using less than an ounce of grape syrup for an entire beverage of grape juice, after mixing it with water. That is, now we are talking about Jesus making either of the following:

3,000-4,000 cups of grape juice, ready to drink without mixing with water, which would go bad in a day

Or,

20,000 plus cups of grape juice, in reduced/concentrated form.

So, it's in the realm of possibilities.

Yet, remember, the servant dips the ladle right into the jugs and tastes. Since, dipping a ladle right into the syrup and tasting would have been extremely odd, it seems, again, like the most reasonable interpretation would be that he made the 3,000-4,000 ready to drink drinks.

Yet, this would entail that these drinks would not be such as to be preserved very long. So, again, Jesus would be wasting a great deal, since, on the grape juice interpretation, the saying of the servant can only be understood as, "The guests are no longer very thirsty".

On the wine interpretation, the saying of the servant need not be understood as, "The guests are no longer thirsty", thus, we can understand both that more of the wine made would be consumed that night than if it were grape juice and the leftover alcoholic wine would preserve better.

Got any more brain busters for me?

I have given you enough proof already that you simple deny. The juice could have easily been preserved after the feast or even been all drank up. You don't have enough details in the story to go any farther with it.

 

[BigO95]

The problem with your logic is that the Bible doesn't claim the KJV to be the final authority and Word of God.

You suffer from your own criticism. You chose the KJV Bible above the other choices.

I personally like my logic better than yours and would reasonably believe that you like yours better than mine. There is still the fact that the KJV came from a different pool of manuscripts that the new versions did.