Pope: There Is No Hell

#326
#326
therealUT said:
Interpretation is not a quantity thing.

Also, "if you have to go to the language it was originally written it", is how you should have phrased that so that everyone could see how ridiculous that retort is.
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The trouble is, all Greek manuscripts aren't accurate. The vaticanus and sinaticus are junk manuscripts.
 
#327
#327
BigO95 said:
Wine is a generic term in the bible like drink is to us today, it can be alcoholic or not. :hi:
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Correct. And, the statement of the servant at the wedding in Cana?

Man, everyone else serves the best grape juice first and the inferior later, when those who are well clenched of their thirst (same Greek word here as in Galatians), just don't want to drink anymore grape juice.

So, Jesus's first miracle was just a superfluous waste of grape juice since everyone was no longer thirsty and done with drinking.

Makes perfect sense.
 
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#328
#328
BigO95 said:
The trouble is, all Greek manuscripts aren't accurate. The vaticanus and sinaticus are junk manuscripts.
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If that's the case, then why trust that any of the New Testament is accurate? Why put faith in the literal interpretation of the Sauline Epistles?
 
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#329
#329
therealUT said:
If that's the case, then why trust that any of the New Testament is accurate? Why put faith in the literal interpretation of the Sauline Epistles?
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The word of God has been preserved just as God promised. All these new versions are doing nothing but causing confusion. Do you even believe that we have a copy of the true word of God?
 
#330
#330
BigO95 said:
The word of God has been preserved just as God promised. All these new versions are doing nothing but causing confusion. Do you even believe that we have a copy of the true word of God?
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The Greek version is the new version? Oh, right, you don't trust that version.

What about the Latin? We have plenty of the Latin transcripts laying around. Same words for wine.
 
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#331
#331
therealUT said:
The Greek version is the new version? Oh, right, you don't trust that version.

What about the Latin? We have plenty of the Latin transcripts laying around. Same words for wine.
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I'm saying God gave me an accurate English Bible that can be trusted and I don't need someone to tell me what the Greek or Hebrew says for me to know what the bible says.
 
#332
#332
So, basically, from about 500-1500 AD, the John story was about vino and the guests were inebriati (inebriated). That is, the Word of God, according to the Bible, was that the guests were drunk and Jesus gave them more wine. That was the translation God wanted at the time.

Now, God wants a new story and so has chosen a new translation, in which we should think the guests were merely not thirsty and Jesus gave them some Welch's grape juice.

That makes sense. Maybe next year it will be chocolate milk.
 
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#334
#334
therealUT said:
So, basically, from about 500-1500 AD, the John story was about vino and the guests were inebriati (inebriated). That is, the Word of God, according to the Bible, was that the guests were drunk and Jesus gave them more wine. That was the translation God wanted at the time.

Now, God wants a new story and so has chosen a new translation, in which we should think the guests were merely not thirsty and Jesus gave them some Welch's grape juice.

That makes sense. Maybe next year it will be chocolate milk.
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I can see that there's not much use continuing this conversation with you. Good night.
 
#335
#335
BigO95 said:
I can see that there's not much use continuing this conversation with you. Good night.
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Certainly no use if you think the Latin and Greek versions can't be trusted but, yet, take the English translations literally.

Basically, to hold this view, you must believe that those who translated the Latin into the English were prophets and that the Bible should only be read in English.

That's ASININE!
 
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#337
#337
So the God that that says drunkards are going to hell and died on the cross to keep drunkards out of hell is going to give people that are already well drunk more alcohol to get even drunker? Yeah, whatever you say pal. That's insane!
 
#338
#338
BigO95 said:
So the God that that says drunkards are going to hell and died on the cross to keep drunkards out of hell is going to give people that are already well drunk more alcohol to get even drunker? Yeah, whatever you say pal. That's insane!
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What’s insane is your take on English translations. It makes zero sense.
 
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#339
#339
BigO95 said:
So the God that that says drunkards are going to hell and died on the cross to keep drunkards out of hell is going to give people that are already well drunk more alcohol to get even drunker? Yeah, whatever you say pal. That's insane!
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Being drunk is not sufficient for being a drunkard.
 
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#340
#340
volfanhill said:
What’s insane is your take on English translations. It makes zero sense.
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having a 100 different translations with a copy right is insane. the copy right ensures that they must be different. All that does is breed confusion.
 
#343
#343
therealUT said:
How about I ask you?

If you say that being a drunkard is a sin, and to be a drunkard is to be habitually drunk, then at what point is does getting drunk become habitual?

This is a trick question.
The mark of a habit isn't quantitative.
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Don't care if you stay drunk everyday dude.
 
#344
#344
BigO95 said:
So, what do drunkards do to make them drunkards?
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They develop the habit and that habit is what guides them continually get drunk.

Habits are such dispositions of character that we act on them without deliberation. Thus, a drunkard, i.e., one who habitually gets drunk, is the person who is compelled, without deliberation, to get drunk.

Drunkard and like terms throughout Latin and Greek have always been understood as having this habitual component.

Such talk of habits/dispositions would not have been unfamiliar to those writing at the time, as the discourse throughout antiquity regarding the habitual contains this aspect of disposed to act without deliberation.

Now, if someone is disposed to act in a manner that gets them drunk (especially to the point in which they lose their ability to reason), then one, of necessity, is seeking to live their life according to the guidance of the spirit, of Jesus, or of God, for they are not living their life according to the guidance of anything other than the habit.

The drunkard, i.e., the habitual drunk, is quite literally chasing drink just as any other addict is chasing their addiction. That is, when one reaches the point of being a drunkard, their life project is consumed by the prospect of the next drink.

It's not very difficult to see why that would be a sin, since to live life in such a manner is, necessarily, to neglect all other duties to all other persons.
 
#345
#345
Fun with taking the Bible Literally:

27
Still, on the seventh day some of the people went out to gather it, but they did not find any.
28
Then the LORD said to Moses: How long will you refuse to keep my commandments and my instructions?
29
Take note! The LORD has given you the sabbath. That is why on the sixth day he gives you food for two days. Each of you stay where you are and let no one go out on the seventh day.
30
After that the people rested on the seventh day.
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8
Remember the sabbath day—keep it holy.*
9
Six days you may labor and do all your work,
10
but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God.f You shall not do any work, either you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your work animal, or the resident alien within your gates.
11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested.g That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.*
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12
c The LORD said to Moses:
13
You must also tell the Israelites: Keep my sabbaths, for that is to be the sign between you and me throughout the generations, to show that it is I, the LORD, who make you holy.
14
* Therefore, you must keep the sabbath for it is holiness for you. Whoever desecrates it shall be put to death. If anyone does work on that day, that person must be cut off from the people.
15
Six days there are for doing work, but the seventh day is the sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD. Anyone who does work on the sabbath day shall be put to death.
16
So shall the Israelites observe the sabbath, keeping it throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant.
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Jesus, of course, is spoken of having done work on the Sabbath, had his disciples pick grain on the Sabbath, etc.

When the Pharisees accuse Jesus of breaking the Sabbath, which is an everlasting covenant, Jesus responds by telling them that they do not understand these Mosaic laws. That is, Jesus responds by telling them and giving them reasons as to why they cannot take these Mosaic Laws in a strictly literal manner.

The Mosiac law allows for an exception to circumcise on the Sabbath. Well, isn't it so much better to heal someone?

The Mosaic law allows for an exception to rescue your livestock on the Sabbath. Well, isn't it so much better to heal someone?

Jesus is very clearly saying, "These texts cannot all be taken in a strictly literal fashion; you must use reason to interpret them, and using reason to interpret them necessarily involves understanding contexts and why it is that God would have such a rule in the first place".

It certainly helps to have a book in which the main character says, very clearly, and repeatedly, "You can't take all of this literally...in some of it, I was speaking to you as children, while in some of it I will speak to you as adults, and in some of it you'll have to exercise your reason to understand what is being said because, if not, you will be misguided by the literal interpretation such that you might put God and his disciples to death", but that, while helpful, is not necessary to understand that the Bible is not, cannot, and was never meant to be taken literally.

All we need for that is the beginning of Genesis and to note that, literally, the chronology is different in the two presentations of the creation story. That is, from the very outset, the Bible is a contextual interpretation problem.
 
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#346
#346
John 2:1-11 (KJV)
1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

They simply had drank a lot of juice.
 
#349
#349
therealUT said:
They develop the habit and that habit is what guides them continually get drunk.

Habits are such dispositions of character that we act on them without deliberation. Thus, a drunkard, i.e., one who habitually gets drunk, is the person who is compelled, without deliberation, to get drunk.

Drunkard and like terms throughout Latin and Greek have always been understood as having this habitual component.

Such talk of habits/dispositions would not have been unfamiliar to those writing at the time, as the discourse throughout antiquity regarding the habitual contains this aspect of disposed to act without deliberation.

Now, if someone is disposed to act in a manner that gets them drunk (especially to the point in which they lose their ability to reason), then one, of necessity, is seeking to live their life according to the guidance of the spirit, of Jesus, or of God, for they are not living their life according to the guidance of anything other than the habit.

The drunkard, i.e., the habitual drunk, is quite literally chasing drink just as any other addict is chasing their addiction. That is, when one reaches the point of being a drunkard, their life project is consumed by the prospect of the next drink.

It's not very difficult to see why that would be a sin, since to live life in such a manner is, necessarily, to neglect all other duties to all other persons.
Click to expand...

It would be really hard to make a drunkard out of a total abstainer! :hi:
 
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