Where did life begin? (Merged)

[GoBigOrangeUT]

Hopefully it will reincarnate into women's undergarments.

Imagine coming back as Hillary’s thong.


I think we just proved hell exists!

 

[Orangeslice13]

Imagine coming back as Hillary’s thong.


I think we just proved hell exists!

Exactly

 

[GoBigOrangeUT]

Exactly

On the flip side, I wouldn’t mind spending eternity being near ScarJo’s underboob sweat.

 

[BigO95]

Septic did you not tell me that you were raised in church?
I honestly cannot remember.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Exodus 23.

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.


Vs 21- G-d says His name is in him.
That makes the angle of the lord more than just an angle.
Vs 22- G-d says the angle of the lord speaks the mind of G-d.

Now about Hebrews

1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Wait.... the Son is eternal


1:14.
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Wait....that’s not right. That’s what all the angles do.

2:2
For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

G-d spoke the word that was steadfast

2:10
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Yeshua has to be made perfect threw suffering?
Really?

2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

He wasn’t merciful till after becoming human ?




There’s a lot of Hebrews that’s questionable at best.
Those are just a couple.

Rex, if you already read this then I must apologize because in my haste to respond to you then eat taco soup I left out something very important.

Before I pointed out the questionable vs of Hebrews I should have commented on the Vs you quoted.

Vs 3 and 4 give context to 5.

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Vs 3 Yeshua is with the father
Vs 4 Yeshua is made better than the angles
Then vs 5 you quoted.

Vs 5 doesn’t eliminate Yeshua as angel of the lord as he is promoted in vs 4.
I again disagree with Hebrews as the angle of the lord speaks with the authority of G-d in many places long before his birth as Yeshua Messiah.

Sorry for that very important omission.

 

[Wafflestomper]

You'd have to be a lot more precise in your question, especially when using the term "necessary," before I am able to confidently provide an answer to whichever meaning you assign to the term. In the context of providing an explanation of existence, then Aquinas goes into very detailed specifics of why his conception of a single God is the only logical possibility. That is because the relevant usage of the term "necessary" refers to metaphysical necessity, and his metaphysics immediately eliminates the possibility of "necessary beings." That again goes back to the pure actuality discussion in this thread.

I'd be interested in how you'd explain Jesus in the context of this argument. If Jesus is God then it would seem that the potential for him to become man was actualized. Therefore, he isn't pure actuality.

Is there a feature that distinguishes Jesus from God? Jesus talks to God and refers to "my father in heaven" in the Bible, so it would stand to reason that there is something that distinguishes Jesus from God.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Does Evolution Contradict Genesis? : Strange Notions

**************
Origen was not the only one to recognize the literary nature of the six days. Similarly, St. Augustine, writing in the A.D. 400s, noted: “What kind of days these were is extremely difficult or perhaps impossible for us to conceive, and how much more to say!” (The City of God, 11:6).

 

[UT-Rex]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeslice13 View Post
Exodus 23.

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.


Vs 21- G-d says His name is in him.
That makes the angle of the lord more than just an angle.
Vs 22- G-d says the angle of the lord speaks the mind of G-d.

Now about Hebrews

1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Wait.... the Son is eternal


1:14.
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Wait....that’s not right. That’s what all the angles do.

2:2
For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

G-d spoke the word that was steadfast

2:10
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Yeshua has to be made perfect threw suffering?
Really?

2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

He wasn’t merciful till after becoming human ?




There’s a lot of Hebrews that’s questionable at best.
Those are just a couple.

Rex, if you already read this then I must apologize because in my haste to respond to you then eat taco soup I left out something very important.

Before I pointed out the questionable vs of Hebrews I should have commented on the Vs you quoted.

Vs 3 and 4 give context to 5.

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Vs 3 Yeshua is with the father
Vs 4 Yeshua is made better than the angles
Then vs 5 you quoted.

Vs 5 doesn’t eliminate Yeshua as angel of the lord as he is promoted in vs 4.
I again disagree with Hebrews as the angle of the lord speaks with the authority of G-d in many places long before his birth as Yeshua Messiah.

Sorry for that very important omission.

Ok, great.

This clarification somewhat better helps me understand your viewpoint: "I again disagree with Hebrews."

I suggest considering a way to agree with Hebrews.

Consider again, Hebrews 1:5 -- "For, to which of the angels did He ever say, "THOU ART MY SON?"

Answer: to none / to no angel, ever, did He say this (which tells us who the angel of Ex 23:20 was not).

 

[UT-Rex]

Does Evolution Contradict Genesis? : Strange Notions

**************
Origen was not the only one to recognize the literary nature of the six days. Similarly, St. Augustine, writing in the A.D. 400s, noted: “What kind of days these were is extremely difficult or perhaps impossible for us to conceive, and how much more to say!” (The City of God, 11:6).

It would be good for St. Augstine to consider these words of Moses:

"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy" (Ex 20:11).

St. Augustine should wonder if he is smarter than Moses, or, if Moses was incapable of comprehending the length of a 1 day x 7.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeslice13 View Post
Exodus 23.

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.


Vs 21- G-d says His name is in him.
That makes the angle of the lord more than just an angle.
Vs 22- G-d says the angle of the lord speaks the mind of G-d.

Now about Hebrews

1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Wait.... the Son is eternal


1:14.
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Wait....that’s not right. That’s what all the angles do.

2:2
For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

G-d spoke the word that was steadfast

2:10
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Yeshua has to be made perfect threw suffering?
Really?

2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

He wasn’t merciful till after becoming human ?




There’s a lot of Hebrews that’s questionable at best.
Those are just a couple.



Ok, great.

This clarification somewhat better helps me understand your viewpoint: "I again disagree with Hebrews."

I suggest considering a way to agree with Hebrews.

Consider again, Hebrews 1:5 -- "For, to which of the angels did He ever say, "THOU ART MY SON?"

Answer: to none / to no angel, ever, did He say this (which tells us who the angel of Ex 23:20 was not).

Once again verse 4 says.

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Made can mean one of two things here.
1) created. That’s heresy as Messiah is Begotten like the father having no begging or end.
2) promoted. That’s heresy as Messiah is Begotten of G-d. Not a created angle who was promoted.

The translation of “angle of the Lord” using angle as a way to understand him doesn’t mean he was merely an angle.

Consider this.
By trinity standards the angle of the lord claims to be G-d

Numbers 2
And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?

There are New Testament references to the angle of the Lord. This doesn’t change his identity at all as there were times when Messiah, post resurrection, would talk with people and they would not recognize him until he allowed it.

Edit:
To repeat Exodus says G-ds name is in the angle of the lord. He’s related to G-d.

 

[Septic]

Septic did you not tell me that you were raised in church?
I honestly cannot remember.

I was, Southern Baptist.

 

[UT-Rex]

Once again verse 4 says.

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Made can mean one of two things here.
1) created. That’s heresy as Messiah is Begotten like the father having no begging or end.
2) promoted. That’s heresy as Messiah is Begotten of G-d. Not a created angle who was promoted.

The translation of “angle of the Lord” using angle as a way to understand him doesn’t mean he was merely an angle.

Consider this.
By trinity standards the angle of the lord claims to be G-d

Numbers 2
And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?

There are New Testament references to the angle of the Lord. This doesn’t change his identity at all as there were times when Messiah, post resurrection, would talk with people and they would not recognize him until he allowed it.

Edit:
To repeat Exodus says G-ds name is in the angle of the lord. He’s related to G-d.

Yes, I see what you're saying --

A. "He's related to G-d" -- see also Acts 17:29, "Therefore since we are God's offspring."

Christians, are essentially "related" to God (which doesn't prove that Christians are angels; and nextly, that "God's name is in the angel" does not prove that this angel was Jesus).

B. "To repeat Exodus says G-ds name is in the angle of the lord."

Yes, you are referring to Ex 23:21 -- šə-mî , My name [is] , שְׁמִ֖י -- "Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him."

Ok, I'm pretty sure this can (also) be interpreted to mean such as this: that this angel is being sent/was sent, by God, in God's name as having the authority, of God ; like an official "envoy" (a messenger or representative, especially one on a diplomatic mission) possessing all of the full and official capacity of the named power who sent them; he will lead in like manner to how I direct him/just as I have directed him.

The "My name" is also here:

1) Numbers 6:27 -- šə-mî , My name , שְׁמִ֖י -- "And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them."

If God can instruct the priests of Levi to put God's name on the people, then God can put his name on the angel of Ex 20:23.

2) 2 Chron 7:14 -- šə-mî , My name , שְׁמִ֣י -- "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

If God's people can be called by His name, then the angel of God in Ex 20:23 can be called by His name / the angel can have God's name "in him."

 

[Orangeslice13]

So you’re saying that the angle of the Lord has a God?
Then if he is not the Messiah pre incarnation then he’s just like Messiah in that He has a God. Speaks for God. Speaks of the things God has said in the first person as if they were his words and carries out Gods plan.


The context of the name of G-d in relation to the Angle of the Lord is different than that of everyone else. Yeshua/and The Angle of the Lord speak for G-d as G-d using statements like “my words...” “the promise I made....”.

Believers and angles do not have that authority


Footnote: I believe Paul’s statement “my Gospel “ to be a translation error. Clearly the Gospel isn’t of Paul.

 

[BigO95]

I was, Southern Baptist.

Very fundamental or of the liberal variety?

 

[BigO95]

It would be good for St. Augstine to consider these words of Moses:

"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy" (Ex 20:11).

St. Augustine should wonder if he is smarter than Moses, or, if Moses was incapable of comprehending the length of a 1 day x 7.

Augustine must be really smart 👎

 

[UT-Rex]

So you’re saying that the angle of the Lord has a God?
Then if he is not the Messiah pre incarnation then he’s just like Messiah in that He has a God. Speaks for God. Speaks of the things God has said in the first person as if they were his words and carries out Gods plan.


The context of the name of G-d in relation to the Angle of the Lord is different than that of everyone else. Yeshua/and The Angle of the Lord speak for G-d as G-d using statements like “my words...” “the promise I made....”.

Believers and angles do not have that authority


Footnote: I believe Paul’s statement “my Gospel “ to be a translation error. Clearly the Gospel isn’t of Paul.

As a refresher, I believe we are discussing your statement "Yeshua is the Angle of the Lord" (as spoken of in Exodus 23:20-23). I certainly understand and appreciate your explanations, however

I'm suggesting that Michael, or Gabriel (but not Jesus) -- or perhaps another angel like the one who visited Mary and Joseph, or one of the two angels who visited with Abraham's nephew, Lot, in the city of Sodom -- is the angel of the Lord (as spoken of in Exodus 23:20-23).

 

[UT-Rex]

Quote:
Originally Posted by UT-Rex View Post
It would be good for St. Augstine to consider these words of Moses:

"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy" (Ex 20:11).

St. Augustine should wonder if he is smarter than Moses, or, if Moses was incapable of comprehending the length of a 1 day x 7.

Augustine must be really smart 👎

Oops, I don't get what you're saying.

Augustine is said to have said "What kind of days these were is extremely difficult or perhaps impossible for us to conceive, and how much more to say!" -- as if he seems to be doubting that a day of creation is a day.

My point is, that Moses made it clear -- 7 days (which seems very simple to conceive).

 

[Orangeslice13]

As a refresher, I believe we are discussing your statement "Yeshua is the Angle of the Lord" (as spoken of in Exodus 23:20-23). I certainly understand and appreciate your explanations, however

I'm suggesting that Michael, or Gabriel (but not Jesus) -- or perhaps another angel like the one who visited Mary and Joseph, or one of the two angels who visited with Abraham's nephew, Lot, in the city of Sodom -- is the angel of the Lord (as spoken of in Exodus 23:20-23).

Achi,

I understand the difference in our beliefs or opinions on who the beings are. I really do appreciate the way you’re explaining your thoughts and asking questions of mine. I hope I’m returning the same level of respect.
This conversation started because another asked a question about my beliefs. There’s clearly been some misunderstanding about it before that so I gave a detailed explanation.
I often enter into these conversations to aid in my studies and growth. It occurs to me that I haven’t asked you your opinion on the relationship between Father and Son. I apologize for that.
If you would like to explain it I’d like to hear your thoughts.

 

[BigO95]

Quote:
Originally Posted by UT-Rex View Post
It would be good for St. Augstine to consider these words of Moses:

"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy" (Ex 20:11).

St. Augustine should wonder if he is smarter than Moses, or, if Moses was incapable of comprehending the length of a 1 day x 7.



Oops, I don't get what you're saying.

Augustine is said to have said "What kind of days these were is extremely difficult or perhaps impossible for us to conceive, and how much more to say!" -- as if he seems to be doubting that a day of creation is a day.

My point is, that Moses made it clear -- 7 days (which seems very simple to conceive).

I was making a poor attempt at sarcasm about Augustine being smarter than Moses. 👎 Was supposed to be me disagreeing with the statement I had just made. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[BigO95]

Achi,

I understand the difference in our beliefs or opinions on who the beings are. I really do appreciate the way you’re explaining your thoughts and asking questions of mine. I hope I’m returning the same level of respect.
This conversation started because another asked a question about my beliefs. There’s clearly been some misunderstanding about it before that so I gave a detailed explanation.
I often enter into these conversations to aid in my studies and growth. It occurs to me that I haven’t asked you your opinion on the relationship between Father and Son. I apologize for that.
If you would like to explain it I’d like to hear your thoughts.

That Slice is a smart cookie, wrong a lot, but smart! 😀
PS. Slice don't get too mean with me.

 

[Roustabout]

So you’re saying that the angle of the Lord has a God?
Then if he is not the Messiah pre incarnation then he’s just like Messiah in that He has a God. Speaks for God. Speaks of the things God has said in the first person as if they were his words and carries out Gods plan.


The context of the name of G-d in relation to the Angle of the Lord is different than that of everyone else. Yeshua/and The Angle of the Lord speak for G-d as G-d using statements like “my words...” “the promise I made....”.

Believers and angles do not have that authority


Footnote: I believe Paul’s statement “my Gospel “ to be a translation error. Clearly the Gospel isn’t of Paul.

A translation error in three different places?

 

[UT-Rex]

I was making a poor attempt at sarcasm about Augustine being smarter than Moses. 👎 Was supposed to be me disagreeing with the statement I had just made. Sorry for the confusion.

Ok, got it! I was actually surprised to see that Augustine supported/endorsed that viewpoint.

Jesus, by simple language, confirmed the Biblical time-frame account of creation, when he said: "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female" (Mark 10:6) --

the "from the beginning of creation" should have been sufficient evidence to Augustine that God did not take some timeframe "extremely" difficult for us to comprehend / thousands or millions of years to get to the point of creating mankind/the universe.

Jesus also wrote about believing the words of Moses (which, for Christians, would include believing the words "on the sixth day" -- as this would be speaking of Jesus, since Jesus was in the beginning, and all things were created through/by him).

 

[Roustabout]

Ok, got it! I was actually surprised to see that Augustine supported/endorsed that viewpoint.

Jesus, by simple language, confirmed the Biblical time-frame account of creation, when he said: "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female" (Mark 10:6) --

the "from the beginning of creation" should have been sufficient evidence to Augustine that God did not take some timeframe "extremely" difficult for us to comprehend / thousands or millions of years to get to the point of creating mankind/the universe.

Jesus also wrote about believing the words of Moses (which, for Christians, would include believing the words "on the sixth day" -- as this would be speaking of Jesus, since Jesus was in the beginning, and all things were created through/by him).

Your presupposing a timeline and imposing your view on it.

 

[BigO95]

Ok, got it! I was actually surprised to see that Augustine supported/endorsed that viewpoint.

Jesus, by simple language, confirmed the Biblical time-frame account of creation, when he said: "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female" (Mark 10:6) --

the "from the beginning of creation" should have been sufficient evidence to Augustine that God did not take some timeframe "extremely" difficult for us to comprehend / thousands or millions of years to get to the point of creating mankind/the universe.

Jesus also wrote about believing the words of Moses (which, for Christians, would include believing the words "on the sixth day" -- as this would be speaking of Jesus, since Jesus was in the beginning, and all things were created through/by him).

Seems logical to me. I believe that the Bible is the final authority.
The Lord Jesus without a doubt believed Moses writings because he was the one who gave them to Moses!😀

 

[Orangeslice13]

A translation error in three different places?

Same word.
Same error.

They also weren’t real good with the whole G vs g thing too