Where did life begin? (Merged)

[Orangeslice13]

That’s where I am now.
I’m leaving town soon for Christmas. (Jews go to the beach) we should meet for lunch and argue in January.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I believe you said you were a pastor.
Do you know the guy from Stewart heights baptist church?

 

[Orange_Crush]

That’s where I am now.
I’m leaving town soon for Christmas. (Jews go to the beach) we should meet for lunch and argue in January.

I'd like that. Just let me know when is good for you.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I believe you said you were a pastor.
Do you know the guy from Stewart heights baptist church?

I don't know the senior pastor, but I used to know a counselor there, and I believe I am acquainted with a former assistant pastor from there.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

Lambasted? Is that victim speak for "asked"?

Your understanding of definition of the fallacy isn't nearly as important as your inability to apply it correctly.

I stand corrected on the Scotsman fallacy, no 'true' christian is capable of murder, rape or any other sin because there are no true Christians. A truly bizarre argument to make from a gaggle of folks who imply that they are in fact Christians. :thumbsup:

Im not very good at debate at all...but i understand this one.

1st you have to ask what is a Christian? A person who tries to emulate Christ. Wants to act just like him. No sin, all love. Wisdom, etc.

Did Christ ever rape anyone? No.

So how can you logically conclude that a person who is a Christian, as in "acting like their mentor, Christ" is in that moment when raping someone a Christian? In that moment they surely are not. They are not emulating Christ. Because he never raped anyone, would never rape anyone, is incapable of sin. Incapable.

So could a person who calls themself a Christian rape and murder? Sure.

Could someone who rapes and murders people later truly convert and have the Holy Spirit within them and be a great Christian? Sure.

Could a rapist, in the act or forcibly raping someone be a Christian, i.e. emulating Christ??? No. No they cannot.

Better??? Distro has been saying this in different words for 2 days...

 

[The Ron Mexico]

Im not very good at debate at all...but i understand this one.

1st you have to ask what is a Christian? A person who tries to emulate Christ. Wants to act just like him. No sin, all love. Wisdom, etc.

Did Christ ever rape anyone? No.

So how can you logically conclude that a person who is a Christian, as in "acting like their mentor, Christ" is in that moment when raping someone a Christian? In that moment they surely are not. They are not emulating Christ. Because he never raped anyone, would never rape anyone, is incapable of sin. Incapable.

So could a person who calls themself a Christian rape and murder? Sure.

Could someone who rapes and murders people later truly convert and have the Holy Spirit within them and be a great Christian? Sure.

Could a rapist, in the act or forcibly raping someone be a Christian, i.e. emulating Christ??? No. No they cannot.

Better??? Distro has been saying this in different words for 2 days...

The only thing I disagree with is your last sentence.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I don't know the senior pastor, but I used to know a counselor there, and I believe I am acquainted with a former assistant pastor from there.

I live next door to him. And have for 15 years.
You can imagine what a blessing that’s been for him.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

(3) We will take PKT's example since it's a recent example. PKT just said (yesterday?) in this very thread that the great stumbling block for most people per Christian theology is that a child rapist could repent and be forgiven, yet Gandhi would be in Hell right now.

That's an appeal to justice. PKT and Septic would be standing on their view of justice there. They want justice, not grace.

Scripture tells us that every person who ever goes to Hell is judged based on God's justice, and it is just for them to be there. Further, scripture tells us that every person who is saved is saved by grace.

So, the argument seems to be switched now, instead of wanting justice, they all want everyone to get grace. You see? Grace is a stumbling block when it's convenient to stumble on it. And justice is a stumbling block when it's convenient to stumble on it.

I’m not sure this is logically consistent. You’re separating justic and grace here when they’re linked in this line of thinking. The “grace” (getting to heaven) is the result of the justice, not a separate act altogether. How could a theoretical good person who never had the opportunity to know god receive justice without the grace part?


Think of it like a real life trial: just being declared innocent of something is meaningless if they put you in a cell afterward. That’s not justice. Likewise, a murderer receiving a guilty sentence is meaningless if he’s free to leave after the trial ends. That’s not justice either.


So the appeal to justice is intricate linked to, not separate from, grace. The hypothetical good man who lived a good life in Australia or Japan in 50 bc can’t receive justice without getting the grace.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

Apology Distro for jumping in your conversation. You have a done a good job here and i agree with your posts.

My everyday carry around Bible is a Henry Morris study bible. It has a huge section in the back devoted to apologetics, and commentary throughout made just for what goes on in these threads, and i still prefer to let OC and others post. Just dont feel comfortable, and i am not a good witness in life either. My wife led both my kids to salvation. Not me...maybe later in life i will be different but at this point in my life I am better off learning, thinking, praying, etc. Fortunately my Pastor is brilliant, and so is OC. Great men of God. I have been close enough to 2 pastors to see that its not easy to always have to be the person that helps everyone else with their burdens. These guys have to be absolutely sold out for Jesus on an every day basis, and keep their flesh really at bay. My dad before the military graduated from Carson Newman with a theology degree. He doesnt even go to church, hasnt in decades. I admire the few people i know that can wake up every single day and say " God, send me where you want me, I want to do exactly what you want. Not what I want." I am still far from there...

D.L. Moody saw thousands and thousands of men saved. Even he said that the world has never seen what a man could do if he were 100% living for God. I am the filthiest of rags compared to him, and yet he yearned for more. Very humbling thought.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Im not very good at debate at all...but i understand this one.

1st you have to ask what is a Christian? A person who tries to emulate Christ. Wants to act just like him. No sin, all love. Wisdom, etc.

Did Christ ever rape anyone? No.

So how can you logically conclude that a person who is a Christian, as in "acting like their mentor, Christ" is in that moment when raping someone a Christian? In that moment they surely are not. They are not emulating Christ. Because he never raped anyone, would never rape anyone, is incapable of sin. Incapable.

So could a person who calls themself a Christian rape and murder? Sure.

Could someone who rapes and murders people later truly convert and have the Holy Spirit within them and be a great Christian? Sure.

Could a rapist, in the act or forcibly raping someone be a Christian, i.e. emulating Christ??? No. No they cannot.

Better??? Distro has been saying this in different words for 2 days...

This argument works for football as well

 

[rjd970]

Either reading comprehension is a problem or I suck at posting. Probably the second.
But I clearly addressed Christians and atheist as equals when running down others beliefs.


Edit. I’m mean seriously.....is telling Septic that I like him and he’s similar to me really a good reason to have to butt in? I know I’m a **** but damn.

Let's look at the original post:

I just don’t understand the need to run down others faith. (As seen by Christians and atheist alike. I know I quoted you but I’m not calling you out. You’re someone I disagree with on things but tend to have a similar personality. I guess I’m saying I like you).
I really try to share what I believe when asked without condemnation on others who disagree.

I think an honest search and conclusion should be respected even when they disagree with me.




Having said that....you’re a problem....you’re a real real problem

I was addressing the bolded parts.

To the first, it was the thread in general. Maybe I didn't read it correctly and thought you were talking about you. If so I apologize. My general interaction in these discussions is the religious (whatever belief it is) side tends to relish the persecution role.

To the second, I don't know if you are serious or if you really think Septic is a problem. I guess I assumed you are calling him a problem because you think he is "putting down" others beliefs. If so, get the hell over it. If not, I apologize, again.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

I live next door to him. And have for 15 years.
You can imagine what a blessing that’s been for him.

Lol. Hilarious.

I would like to have lunch with both of you. I haven't been to chatt. Since kindergarten at Red Banks Elementary. Family moved after that. I find your brand of Judaism fascinating. Its like half jew/half protestant. Our beliefs are quite similar. I have also worked in either construction or remodeling for 25 years, and do many of the same jobs as you. For the last 8 years I have been a superintendent, but I still do kitchen and baths, and room additions on the side. I have access to a large pool of talented amigos, and that helps because my body cant do as much as it used to since the back surgeries. My FIL has been remodeling for 40 years, and I still help him when I can as well. He is very talented at built ins and cabinets,as well as custom painting. Anybody can roll paint on a wall. He can cut perfectly straight lines with both hands and paint a room faster than i can with a helper. Sadly, I think you and I are a dying breed. I never see white or black teens learning a trade.never. its all latino...

 

[Orangeslice13]

Let's look at the original post:



I was addressing the bolded parts.

To the first, it was the thread in general. Maybe I didn't read it correctly and thought you were talking about you. If so I apologize. My general interaction in these discussions is the religious (whatever belief it is) side tends to relish the persecution role.

To the second, I don't know if you are serious or if you really think Septic is a problem. I guess I assumed you are calling him a problem because you think he is "putting down" others beliefs. If so, get the hell over it. If not, I apologize, again.

You clearly have never seen the movie couples retreat.
The let’s not point fingers followed by pointing a finger and calling someone a problem.

In any case Septic is a big boy and can handle himself. He don’t need you
(Another movie quote)

 

[MercyPercy]

I believe this is the contested comment. I do not believed I ever defined what a Christian is, so I could not have changed the definition. This was in response to the universal assertion (that OC quoted) that all Christians value rapists and murderers above non-believers.

Many if not most Christians believe that salvation is based solely on belief in Jesus. Murderers and rapists who either were practicing Christians at the time, or became one afterwards, would still be valued by god over a non believer who didn't rape or kill anyone at the time of judgement. I have no way of knowing what is in another's heart, and knowing that, I assume you have no such way either.

Claiming they weren't "true" Christians is a convenient scapegoat, and logical fallacy, to avoid the cognitive dissonance and harsh reality of the scenario described above for a believer.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I’m not sure this is logically consistent. You’re separating justic and grace here when they’re linked in this line of thinking. The “grace” (getting to heaven) is the result of the justice, not a separate act altogether. How could a theoretical good person who never had the opportunity to know god receive justice without the grace part?


Think of it like a real life trial: just being declared innocent of something is meaningless if they put you in a cell afterward. That’s not justice. Likewise, a murderer receiving a guilty sentence is meaningless if he’s free to leave after the trial ends. That’s not justice either.


So the appeal to justice is intricate linked to, not separate from, grace. The hypothetical good man who lived a good life in Australia or Japan in 50 bc can’t receive justice without getting the grace.

I'm not sure I am following, so please forgive me if/when you have to give this another shot.

How are grace/justice linked in this line of thinking? The only link they have in a Christian theological context is that they are basically completely opposite concepts. Grace is not receiving what you deserve. Justice is receiving what you deserve.

As such, how is getting into heaven the result of justice?

You mention the "theoretical good person". From a Christian theological perspective, there are no "good" people.

From a theological perspective, no one will get into heaven by justice, yet every person that is judged is judged based on justice. Conversely, every person who goes to heaven and escapes judgment, gets there solely based on grace, having escaped judgment (justice).

So, to follow the logic:

A person that is offended because God forgives a pedophile and letting him into heaven while an average Joe Schmoe goes to hell. They are making an appeal that God isn't just. He should have dealt more justly.

The same person claims that it's unfair if a person didn't get the same gospel opportunity that I did. Well, I am saved by grace, so it's not a justice issue. It's a grace issue. They are saying the person should have been dealt with in grace the same way I was. They aren't appealing to justice anymore. They are appealing to grace. God should have dealt more graciously.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

I'm not sure I am following, so please forgive me if/when you have to give this another shot.

How are grace/justice linked in this line of thinking? The only link they have in a Christian theological context is that they are basically completely opposite concepts. Grace is not receiving what you deserve. Justice is receiving what you deserve.

As such, how is getting into heaven the result of justice?

You mention the "theoretical good person". From a Christian theological perspective, there are no "good" people.

From a theological perspective, no one will get into heaven by justice, yet every person that is judged is judged based on justice. Conversely, every person who goes to heaven and escapes judgment, gets there solely based on grace, having escaped judgment (justice).

So, to follow the logic:

A person that is offended because God forgives a pedophile and letting him into heaven while an average Joe Schmoe goes to hell. They are making an appeal that God isn't just. He should have dealt more justly.

The same person claims that it's unfair if a person didn't get the same gospel opportunity that I did. Well, I am saved by grace, so it's not a justice issue. It's a grace issue. They are saying the person should have been dealt with in grace the same way I was. They aren't appealing to justice anymore. They are appealing to grace. God should have dealt more graciously.

I was trying to call you now bro but i cant find your number in my

I will erase this as soon as you post saying u gpt it..

 

[Orange_Crush]

I was trying to call you now bro but i cant find your number in my phone.

Email it to me plz. at@at.com

I will erase this as soon as you post saying u gpt it..

Guys please dont send me nudes etc..trying to hook up with pastor about some real life stuff. Thx. I know you clowns

Newts sent. (Got it.)

 

[marcusluvsvols]

Newts sent. (Got it.)

Sweet. Ill call you in a bit when i can get away. Thx again.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

I'm not sure I am following, so please forgive me if/when you have to give this another shot.

How are grace/justice linked in this line of thinking? The only link they have in a Christian theological context is that they are basically completely opposite concepts. Grace is not receiving what you deserve. Justice is receiving what you deserve.

As such, how is getting into heaven the result of justice?

You mention the "theoretical good person". From a Christian theological perspective, there are no "good" people.

From a theological perspective, no one will get into heaven by justice, yet every person that is judged is judged based on justice. Conversely, every person who goes to heaven and escapes judgment, gets there solely based on grace, having escaped judgment (justice).

So, to follow the logic:

A person that is offended because God forgives a pedophile and letting him into heaven while an average Joe Schmoe goes to hell. They are making an appeal that God isn't just. He should have dealt more justly.

The same person claims that it's unfair if a person didn't get the same gospel opportunity that I did. Well, I am saved by grace, so it's not a justice issue. It's a grace issue. They are saying the person should have been dealt with in grace the same way I was. They aren't appealing to justice anymore. They are appealing to grace. God should have dealt more graciously.

With the narrow way you define the terms, we will never agree here.


But for someone who doesn’t subscribe to hardline Protestant christian theology, the idea of splitting justice (which is basically just the concept of reaping what you sow in this context) and grace completely apart makes little sense. Justice doesn’t only occur in the negative sense.


I mean, if you live a christian life, have faith in Jesus, receive grace, and get into heaven, have you not been justified in your beliefs and the way you lived your life?


From the perspective of someone who hasn’t committed their whole life and existence to that belief system, it just seems like the idea of separating grace and justice is a bit of hand waving and mental gymnastics to come to terms with the troubling thought that many people who lived decent, moral lives may be forced to suffer for eternity because they were born in the wrong place and time.

 

[hog88]

There was a lady in front of me at Chick-F-La today and her backside is all the proof I need that God exists.

 

[Orange_Crush]

With the narrow way you define the terms, we will never agree here.


But for someone who doesn’t subscribe to hardline Protestant christian theology, the idea of splitting justice (which is basically just the concept of reaping what you sow in this context) and grace completely apart makes little sense. Justice doesn’t only occur in the negative sense.


I mean, if you live a christian life, have faith in Jesus, receive grace, and get into heaven, have you not been justified in your beliefs and the way you lived your life?


From the perspective of someone who hasn’t committed their whole life and existence to that belief system, it just seems like the idea of separating grace and justice is a bit of hand waving and mental gymnastics to come to terms with the troubling thought that many people who lived decent, moral lives may be forced to suffer for eternity because they were born in the wrong place and time.

That's probably the issue. if you want to understand more how I'm not merely hand waving, you can do some study in classical, orthodox Christian theology.

I'm not trying to be condescending, and apologize if I come across that way. But I am using grace and justice in the classical, theological way.

And in classical orthodoxy, no one has lived "decent, moral lives". You can feel free to disagree, but the fact of the matter is that these definitions are scriptural and have much more in them than a way for me to escape troubling thoughts.

The fact that I believe we all deserve to go to Hell makes it no less troubling for me to think that people are going to Hell.

:hi:

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

That's probably the issue. if you want to understand more how I'm not merely hand waving, you can do some study in classical, orthodox Christian theology.

I'm not trying to be condescending, and apologize if I come across that way. But I am using grace and justice in the classical, theological way.

Not trying to say you’re condescending. I understand these arguments aren’t really your own and backed by and borrowed from classical theologians.

What I’m saying is that many classical theologians define and use those terms disingenuously. Most classical theology (regardless of religion) exists as attempts to come to terms with or do away with the things that just don’t seem right in any given belief system. Their works exist because they start from the standpoint that their underlying beliefs can’t be wrong and then they move from there.


I’m also not trying to be condescending here or pile on Christianity. I’ve studied Buddhism and many classical Buddhist theologians do the same thing. I’d expect nothing less from classical theologians of any faith.

And in classical orthodoxy, no one has lived "decent, moral lives". You can feel free to disagree, but the fact of the matter is that these definitions are scriptural and have much more in them than a way for me to escape troubling thoughts.

I’m sure this is the case in classical orthodoxy and on paper. But it’s almosy certainly not the case in the real world.

The fact that I believe we all deserve to go to Hell makes it no less troubling for me to think that people are going to Hell.

:hi:

But surely the fact that you believe you’ve found the correct belief system to get you to the good place helps a bit, amiright?

 

[distrovol]

Many if not most Christians believe that salvation is based solely on belief in Jesus. Murderers and rapists who either were practicing Christians at the time, or became one afterwards, would still be valued by god over a non believer who didn't rape or kill anyone at the time of judgement. I have no way of knowing what is in another's heart, and knowing that, I assume you have no such way either.

Claiming they weren't "true" Christians is a convenient scapegoat, and logical fallacy, to avoid the cognitive dissonance and harsh reality of the scenario described above for a believer.

I believe God values all human life equally, both believers and non believers, which is the crux of my disagreement with you. Grace is a gift you either accept or reject. Gods revealed nature suggests he would prefer all people to accept that gift, but the reality is not all will due to free will. So, even though he values the non believers as well, he allows the consequences of that rejection of his gift of grace.

 

[distrovol]

Apology Distro for jumping in your conversation. You have a done a good job here and i agree with your posts.

My everyday carry around Bible is a Henry Morris study bible. It has a huge section in the back devoted to apologetics, and commentary throughout made just for what goes on in these threads, and i still prefer to let OC and others post. Just dont feel comfortable, and i am not a good witness in life either. My wife led both my kids to salvation. Not me...maybe later in life i will be different but at this point in my life I am better off learning, thinking, praying, etc. Fortunately my Pastor is brilliant, and so is OC. Great men of God. I have been close enough to 2 pastors to see that its not easy to always have to be the person that helps everyone else with their burdens. These guys have to be absolutely sold out for Jesus on an every day basis, and keep their flesh really at bay. My dad before the military graduated from Carson Newman with a theology degree. He doesnt even go to church, hasnt in decades. I admire the few people i know that can wake up every single day and say " God, send me where you want me, I want to do exactly what you want. Not what I want." I am still far from there...

D.L. Moody saw thousands and thousands of men saved. Even he said that the world has never seen what a man could do if he were 100% living for God. I am the filthiest of rags compared to him, and yet he yearned for more. Very humbling thought.

No need to apologize my friend. I appreciate your helping me restate what I was trying to say. Keep fighting the good fight. Like OC said, as long as the trajectory is correct your on the right path. I share in your daily struggles in my walk as well.

 

[Wafflestomper]

There was a lady in front of me at Chick-F-La today and her backside is all the proof I need that God exists.

Not a true Christian, IMO.