Where did life begin? (Merged)

[Orange_Crush]

For the record, I read every word you typed. My response to the bolded is Bertrand Russell’s 1950 “Russell’s Teapot” and the burden of proof being on the party making the claim that an event did indeed happen.

His statement was about what it would take for you to convince him not to believe, so the context is about whatever claims you would make. The teapot analogy would thus be working against you.

(The argument per burden of proof affects anyone making a claim as fact, no matter whether the claim is positive or negative.)

 

[The Ron Mexico]

His statement was about what it would take for you to convince him not to believe, so the context is about whatever claims you would make. The teapot analogy would thus be working against you.

(The argument per burden of proof affects anyone making a claim as fact, no matter whether the claim is positive or negative.)

You may want to re-read the actual text he wrote.

 

[Orange_Crush]

You may want to re-read the actual text he wrote.

I read it. The bold was:

"say to my unbelieving friends, if you can prove to me that Jesus did not rise from the dead, then I will no longer be a Christian."

The thing about metaphysical beliefs that can't be proven--whether religion or scientific cosmology--is that they can't be proven. It gets stupid when everyone starts requiring burdens of proof to found or destroy beliefs.

You don't believe. Ok. He does. Ok. Now where do you guys go from there?

 

[MercyPercy]

There are only two options. Choose wisely.

You know, I won't agree there's only two options, but I might concede there is an argument for it maybe being the safest bet, even if ever so slightly. Thinking over some other hells out there, they mostly suck, but Christian hell sure does seem like the worst. If you're trying to play the percentages, you could do worse.

On that note, anyone feel free to educate me on some crazy metal hells I haven't read about yet. I really do find it interesting. Wikipedia is a drug.

 

[The Ron Mexico]

I read it. The bold was:

"say to my unbelieving friends, if you can prove to me that Jesus did not rise from the dead, then I will no longer be a Christian."

The thing about metaphysical beliefs that can't be proven--whether religion or scientific cosmology--is that they can't be proven. It gets stupid when everyone starts requiring burdens of proof to found or destroy beliefs.

You don't believe. Ok. He does. Ok. Now where do you guys go from there?

My apologies. Maybe I was unclear. I was referring to Russell’s text. And I will read at least one of the books you mentioned.

 

[Orange_Crush]

My apologies. Maybe I was unclear. I was referring to Russell’s text. And I will read at least one of the books you mentioned.

I've read Russell's text. I don't use it as the foundation text for burden of proof. I don't remember recommending a book, but the book of John would be the one i recommend. 😀

 

[Septic]

What happens to the Christian if he is wrong, and what happens to the Atheist if he is wrong?

The pascal wager is the shoop defense of arguments for belief.

 

[Septic]

There are only two options. Choose wisely.

Lol.

No.

 

[The Ron Mexico]

I've read Russell's text. I don't use it as the foundation text for burden of proof. I don't remember recommending a book, but the book of John would be the one i recommend. 😀

Sorry. That was fleecey. I got my posters confused.

 

[Orange_Crush]

The pascal wager is the shoop defense of arguments for belief.

I agree.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Sorry. That was fleecey. I got my posters confused.

My bad. I was the one who jumped into your conversation. I apologise.

 

[FleeceItOut]

The pascal wager is the shoop defense of arguments for belief.

Agree but I wasn’t originally trying to start that argument. I was just trying to understand the need of non-believers to mock those who do believe.

 

[FleeceItOut]

Lol.

No.

That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it.

 

[Squints]

Statistically speaking, wouldn’t the odds be the same for an atheist (which I am not) as they would be for a Christian? Both stand the chance of picking wrong.

No, this isn't a game of draw a marble from the bag. Oh, and by the way, there's 5 orange ones and 5 white ones.

Applying simplistic, probalistic paradigms to the divinity of God is erroneous and disingenuous.

 

[The Ron Mexico]

No, this isn't a game of draw a marble from the bag. Oh, and by the way, there's 5 orange ones and 5 white ones.

Applying simplistic, probalistic paradigms to the divinity of God is erroneous and disingenuous.

It's definitely not disingenuous on my part. And I am certainly not stuck in any paradigms. I am open to any and all ideas on the matter. The problem is paradigms, though. Just not on my part.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

You know, I won't agree there's only two options, but I might concede there is an argument for it maybe being the safest bet, even if ever so slightly. Thinking over some other hells out there, they mostly suck, but Christian hell sure does seem like the worst. If you're trying to play the percentages, you could do worse.

On that note, anyone feel free to educate me on some crazy metal hells I haven't read about yet. I really do find it interesting. Wikipedia is a drug.

Some of the buddhist hells are pretty metal. A lot of people assume that the whole reincarnation thing means buddhists don't believe in any hells, but it depends on the kind of buddhism. In some kinds you can die, spend some time in hell, get another go around at life, then hell again, then be a dung beetle or something like that.


Wang Saen Suk Hell Garden: A Glimpse of the Buddhist Underworld - The Bohemian Blog




Also, ftr, not all christians agree on the stereotypical version of hell we often think of with eternal torture. Some believe hell is just eternal separation from the creator. So in theory, that's not too bad.

 

[Squints]

It's definitely not disingenuous on my part. And I am certainly not stuck in any paradigms. I am open to any and all ideas on the matter. The problem is paradigms, though. Just not on my part.

You've certainly framed the paradigm as a probability of "x" occurring because "y" was/wasn't done, on any or all sides. In other words, there is a truth, and this truth has no chance of being wrong. This doesn't mean other options have "x" chance of being right because there's "y" number contesting.

The problem I have with these discussions is the insatiable knack to attribute nuances as being a certain conceivable truth. This could be attempted towards Christians, and does occur, but we lean on substantive, divine text, not a dictionary and a thesaurus to drive our narrative.

I'm not attempting to come off as rude, that is not my goal. I just can't fathom the effort one puts into something they are convinced doesn't exist. I'm not directing this solely at you, just providing a general observation of this discussion.

My hope for everyone is that they accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. That is my hope and prayer for a lost and dying world. God bless you all.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Some of the buddhist hells are pretty metal. A lot of people assume that the whole reincarnation thing means buddhists don't believe in any hells, but it depends on the kind of buddhism. In some kinds you can die, spend some time in hell, get another go around at life, then hell again, then be a dung beetle or something like that.


Wang Saen Suk Hell Garden: A Glimpse of the Buddhist Underworld - The Bohemian Blog



Also, ftr, not all christians agree on the stereotypical version of hell we often think of with eternal torture. Some believe hell is just eternal separation from the creator. So in theory, that's not too bad.

There are quite a few Christian and Jewish Denominations that believe the soul is not immortal till after the the judgement. Those found unworthy receive a 2nd death. The end. No eternal life in torment. The eternal life in hell concept doesn’t appear in Christianity till fairly recently (its been a while since I looked into it). The book Dante’s Inferno is the source of this belief imo

 

[distrovol]

Why is That?

Are the Catholic priests who molest young boys not practicing Christians?

Is this going to turn into no true Scotsman? That's where this is going, right?




Seems to be a whole lot of folks who claim to find god in prison who did some awful things. Sure, they did it before they were "turned" but they would be judged as Christian killers and rapists, if they sincerely believed, no?

To your first point:

Just because someone wears a collar and occupies a position does not mean they are a follower of Christ. These are the ones whom Slice was refering to when Jesus said " I never knew you". How could you think Jesus, as described in the Gospels, could condone what would likely turn away a child from the faith forever by molesting them in such a position of power and authority? It flies in the face of His Great Commission.

To your second:

Yes, it is possible to to bad things, repent and be forgiven, then restored. It is the example Christ set and what Christians are supposed to practice to EVERYONE they interact with, even non-believers. But, only God and that person know if the Holy Spirit truly indwells in their heart, so they can say anything they want. You judge the tree by the fruit.

To say that Christians "value" criminals over non-believers is just flat wrong and an attempt to besmirch the faith.

 

[BigO95]

If your god creates you knowing full well that you will end up suffering for eternity in hell, how do you reconcile that with the idea that he loves and cares for his creation? Was the short time you had on earth worth eternal torment in hell? He's not doing us any favors. When a child tortures small, helpless animals, we view it as a signal of deeply rooted mental illness and the potential for harming human beings. When your god displays sadistic behavior, we say... god works in mysterious ways.



No, if I am operating within the framework of your god being real, it would not make sense to say god "couldn't" do that. The implication of your reality is already absurd (not in a derogatory sense, only relative to our current understanding of laws and physics) so of course absurd things can happen.

It is categorically false that all received the same chance, because god created them already knowing what would happen. 95% of humanity never had a chance to begin with.



This is a rather sad and dark thought to conclude with, that not only contradicts the idea of a just and kind god, but also contradicts your claim that everyone gets a chance at salvation. You are admitting here that some do not, and are punished for the sins of their father, something entirely out of their control. And it's okay?

The implications of your specific beliefs, were they true, do not comfort me or inspire confidence in a loving, just, and perfect god.

Every person that has ever lived has the light of creation, light obeyed brings more light. If a person wants to know who the Creator is, God is great enough to send them someone to tell them.
Know this that your decisions directly affect your children's well-being. If you choose to be a Godless Heathen that scoffs at everything that God does and scoffs at his bible and scolfs at preachers then you are leading your children down the wrong road. Don't be surprised when you train them up to be an atheist that they turn out to be an atheist, thus putting your children in a hard position to get to know God seeing you train them not to know God. God has also given every man a conscience. Even still, God is merciful and has offered them at least the light of creation. What they do with it is their business it's absolutely between them and God! They must come to the same decision that you or I have come to.
So we may conclude that God is merciful and God is gracious and God has given everyone a form of light that can lead them to Salvation.
When I was a child my bad claimed to be an atheist and still God somehow got the light of the Gospel to me. However if he had taken me to church as a child I could have come to know the Lord sooner and save myself a lot of Shame and heartache.
If you want to know how much God really loves you why don't you take a close look at the cross of Calvary and see what he suffered on your behalf.

 

[BigO95]

Furthermore Percy God never created anybody to go to hell. Hell was created for the devil and the angels that followed him. If you go to hell you're going to have to walk over God's grace and God's love and God's mercy to get there! If you die and go to hell it will be a of your own choosing.
Without a doubt God has given you another opportunity with this conversation to offer you Mercy again. Now the question is what will you do with God's mercy and God's grace?

 

[BigO95]

[QU

 

[distrovol]

My bad. I was the one who jumped into your conversation. I apologise.

Mind if I jump into yours?

I have been meaning to ask you about scriptural answers (and non- scriptural commentary) to questions that PKT and Septic pose. Mainly about the very valid ones regarding those who never hear of Christ due to geographical location, and those who were non-Hebrew around the world before Christ came.

 

[distrovol]

There are quite a few Christian and Jewish Denominations that believe the soul is not immortal till after the the judgement. Those found unworthy receive a 2nd death. The end. No eternal life in torment. The eternal life in hell concept doesn’t appear in Christianity till fairly recently (its been a while since I looked into it). The book Dante’s Inferno is t

You seem quite enamoured with the KJV translation. May I ask why?

edit: don't know why it quoted slice, tried to quote BigO95

 

[omaha_vol]

Mind if I jump into yours?

I have been meaning to ask you about scriptural answers (and non- scriptural commentary) to questions that PKT and Septic pose. Mainly about the very valid ones regarding those who never hear of Christ due to geographical location, and those who were non-Hebrew around the world before Christ came.

I dont think youll accept the answer