Where did life begin? (Merged)

[marcusluvsvols]

I would have.

Glad to see you here brother.

 

[BigO95]

I understand that you kind of HAVE to believe this is order to not shatter your worldview and not paint your god in a bad light, but you're categorically wrong. Before modern times, there were billions of people throughout history who had no chance to learn about your god. Claiming that your god reached out to each and every one of them personally and they actively and knowingly turned him down is insulting to their memories as well as my intelligence.

I am in no way trying to insult your intelligence, but there is no way that you could possibly know what they had knowledge of and what they did not. You have to assume that.
Titus 2:11 (KJV)
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
who do you think that I should believe? you or God?
Who should you believe, some college professor, or God?

 

[BigO95]

I understand that you kind of HAVE to believe this is order to not shatter your worldview and not paint your god in a bad light, but you're categorically wrong. Before modern times, there were billions of people throughout history who had no chance to learn about your god. Claiming that your god reached out to each and every one of them personally and they actively and knowingly turned him down is insulting to their memories as well as my intelligence.

Besides that, God knows who would believe him and who would not. Do you think that an all knowing, all powerful God could enable the message of the gospel to reach the people of this world?
There is also the fact that some people have utterly rejected the message of God and their whole family paid the price for their ungodliness.

 

[FleeceItOut]

I don’t understand the need of non-believers to mock and poke fun at Christians.

Seems that there must be some sort of insecurity amongst non-believers. Could be based on the fact that they have a lot on the line if they are wrong.

I’ve always agreed that it takes more faith to not believe than it does to believe. The consequences are far dire for those who choose not to believe.

 

[BigO95]

I don’t understand the need of non-believers to mock and poke fun at Christians.

Seems that there must be some sort of insecurity amongst non-believers. Could be based on the fact that they have a lot on the line if they are wrong.

I’ve always agreed that it takes more faith to not believe than it does to believe. The consequences are far dire for those who choose not to believe.

I wish that I could give this 100 likes! :clapping:

 

[Orange_Crush]

Calling it random chance is an oversimplification, and a borderline strawman, hence the quotations.

I'll wait while you look up what a false dichotomy is though.

You should really stuck around to get to know pkt before condescending him.

 

[The Ron Mexico]

I don’t understand the need of non-believers to mock and poke fun at Christians.

Seems that there must be some sort of insecurity amongst non-believers. Could be based on the fact that they have a lot on the line if they are wrong.

I’ve always agreed that it takes more faith to not believe than it does to believe. The consequences are far dire for those who choose not to believe.

Statistically speaking, wouldn’t the odds be the same for an atheist (which I am not) as they would be for a Christian? Both stand the chance of picking wrong.

 

[Orange_Crush]

No reasonable person would believe that a person who committed those kinds of acts would be a practicing Christian. While it might be technically possible to do such a terrible thing, have a change of heart, and dedicate the rest of your life in service to Christ, but I can't think of an example. So taking that ultra rare exception and holding it up as though rapists and serial murderers are better than unbelievers in the eyes of Christians is dubious and a gross mischaraterization of the faith.

To profess that any one sin is worse than any other is a misrepresentation of the faith. On the other hand, for pkt to do so is a bit counterintuitive if he is still professing relativistic morality.

From a Christian perspective tho, if Hitler placed true faith in Christ in that bunker, he will be waiting for is in heaven.

That's ok tho pkt, Paul predicted that would be a stumbling block to the intellectual atheists among us.

 

[FleeceItOut]

Statistically speaking, wouldn’t the odds be the same for an atheist (which I am not) as they would be for a Christian? Both stand the chance of picking wrong.

What happens to the Christian if he is wrong, and what happens to the Atheist if he is wrong?

 

[Orange_Crush]

Glad to see you here brother.

Likewise bro. Been worried about you so praying for you.

 

[The Ron Mexico]

What happens to the Christian if he is wrong, and what happens to the Atheist if he is wrong?

Depends on which religion turns to be right. You can see my expanded Pascal’s Wager chart earlier in this thread.

So if a certain religion says non-adherents go to a “hell”, and it turns out to be the right religion, both the Christian and atheist would have the same end result.

 

[The Ron Mexico]

Here it is again:

 

[FleeceItOut]

Depends on which religion turns to be right. You can see my expanded Pascal’s Wager chart earlier in this thread.

So if a certain religion says non-adherents go to a “hell”, and it turns out to be the right religion, both the Christian and atheist would have the same end result.

Are you referring to different Christian denominations or completely different religions i.e. Buddhism, Hinduism, Muslims, etc.?

 

[BigO95]

Ron, am I gonna get to see you in heaven some day? if so, what are you trusting to get you there?

 

[The Ron Mexico]

Are you referring to different Christian denominations or completely different religions i.e. Buddhism, Hinduism, Muslims, etc.?

Different religions. Or different denominations since some believe the other denominations within the same religion will be punished. Either way, the point is the same. See chart above for reference.

 

[The Ron Mexico]

Ron, am I gonna get to see you in heaven some day? if so, what are you trusting to get you there?

Maybe. Maybe not. You may not make it.

 

[BigO95]

Maybe. Maybe not. You may not make it.

I have Gods promise from the word of God! I will be there without a doubt!!! :yahoo:

 

[BigO95]

Good night and may the good Lord take a liking to ya!

 

[FleeceItOut]

Different religions. Or different denominations since some believe the other denominations within the same religion will be punished. Either way, the point is the same. See chart above for reference.

This was copied from a Christian website but had no author. It provides a simplistic explanation to what you asked.

The first thing I would like to do is to make a distinction between Christianity and Religion. To me a “religion” is a set of dogmatic beliefs and practises that are designed to help a person achieve a spiritual goal. A religion is about believing and doing the right thing in order to be “right” with the spiritual universe. (please forgive me if I have been overly generalised here!)

Christianity is about a relationship with God that is achieved by God himself and based on trust (also known as faith). A Christian does not have to do anything in order to right with God because God has done it all. All a Christian does is live a life of trust in the God who has already saved him. In this sense it is not a religion but a relationship - like being married.

At the heart of Christianity is the man Jesus who is God’s Son. He is the one we are called to trust. He is the one we are called to learn from and whose life is an example for us to follow. He is the one who gave up his life so that those who trust him could be forgiven (see the Gospel of John in the bible, chapter 3 and verse 16-17).

Jesus claims to be the only way that we can be right with God. In John 14:6 he says “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no one comes to God (and gets into heaven) but by me!” So Jesus actually claims that he is the one in whom you must trust and who teaches the one true faith.

Now anyone can say that. I could get up in Trafalgar Square and say that. I would probably be locked up! It is easy to say but hard to prove. Jesus proves he has the right to say “I am the Way” by rising from the dead. No one else has died and risen again but Jesus. And that is substantial historical proof that he is who he says he is, and that what he says is true.

This is the most important teaching of Christianity, it is the one on which is rises or falls. If Jesus were to be shown to have not risen from the dead then Christianity is useless. I say to my unbelieving friends, if you can prove to me that Jesus did not rise from the dead, then I will no longer be a Christian. After 20 years, I am still waiting for them to come up with a good argument.

So I encourage you to investigate the claims of Jesus, look at the historical evidence for the resurrection. Any book by Josh McDowell would be helpful here or The Christ Files by John Dickson. Read the biography of Jesus written by Luke (in the BIble). Ask yourself who is Jesus and can I trust him? You will see that to believe in Jesus is less of a leap in the dark and more of a welcome relief.

 

[orangeluvr]

Do you follow the teaching of replacement theology?

No, but very familiar with the teachings in the Bible.

 

[MercyPercy]

Besides that, God knows who would believe him and who would not.

If your god creates you knowing full well that you will end up suffering for eternity in hell, how do you reconcile that with the idea that he loves and cares for his creation? Was the short time you had on earth worth eternal torment in hell? He's not doing us any favors. When a child tortures small, helpless animals, we view it as a signal of deeply rooted mental illness and the potential for harming human beings. When your god displays sadistic behavior, we say... god works in mysterious ways.

Do you think that an all knowing, all powerful God could enable the message of the gospel to reach the people of this world?

No, if I am operating within the framework of your god being real, it would not make sense to say god "couldn't" do that. The implication of your reality is already absurd (not in a derogatory sense, only relative to our current understanding of laws and physics) so of course absurd things can happen.

It is categorically false that all received the same chance, because god created them already knowing what would happen. 95% of humanity never had a chance to begin with.

There is also the fact that some people have utterly rejected the message of God and their whole family paid the price for their ungodliness.

This is a rather sad and dark thought to conclude with, that not only contradicts the idea of a just and kind god, but also contradicts your claim that everyone gets a chance at salvation. You are admitting here that some do not, and are punished for the sins of their father, something entirely out of their control. And it's okay?

The implications of your specific beliefs, were they true, do not comfort me or inspire confidence in a loving, just, and perfect god.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

You should really stuck around to get to know pkt before condescending him.

PkT and I see God, and worship very differently. I respect his opinions even when I dont agree with him simply because he us very intelligent, and definitely well educated. He also tends to treat others with respect, and disagree without being a dbag which is a mark of maturity. I wish he did believe, because God could use him the same way He uses you...every word i said about him i can say for you as well OC, but in addition to being very learned in worldly things you have a great spiritual knowledge and insight. Glad to see you here, you often express my beliefs in these recurring threads better than i can...i quit posting in these threads much, many moons ago, because I felt like i got a little snarky or defensive at times and failed the same God i was attempting to defend? Defend probably isnt the right word, and the God we serve certainly doesnt need me to defend Him...but at any rate...thanks for what you do brother. And yeah, wafflestomper? Or whatever saying pkt would need to look up dichotomy is hilarious. Lol... I have read endless threads between he and TRUT back in the day that most folks would need a thesaurus and an interpreter to understand.

 

[MercyPercy]

I don’t understand the need of non-believers to mock and poke fun at Christians.

Seems that there must be some sort of insecurity amongst non-believers. Could be based on the fact that they have a lot on the line if they are wrong.

I’ve always agreed that it takes more faith to not believe than it does to believe. The consequences are far dire for those who choose not to believe.

I would guess we all have about the same chance, considering the multitudes of religion throughout history which claimed they were the only true religion, and false idolatry was punishable by death and worse. This isn't a two option only scenario.

 

[FleeceItOut]

I would guess we all have about the same chance, considering the multitudes of religion throughout history which claimed they were the only true religion, and false idolatry was punishable by death and worse. This isn't a two option only scenario.

There are only two options. Choose wisely.

 

[The Ron Mexico]

This was copied from a Christian website but had no author. It provides a simplistic explanation to what you asked.

The first thing I would like to do is to make a distinction between Christianity and Religion. To me a “religion” is a set of dogmatic beliefs and practises that are designed to help a person achieve a spiritual goal. A religion is about believing and doing the right thing in order to be “right” with the spiritual universe. (please forgive me if I have been overly generalised here!)

Christianity is about a relationship with God that is achieved by God himself and based on trust (also known as faith). A Christian does not have to do anything in order to right with God because God has done it all. All a Christian does is live a life of trust in the God who has already saved him. In this sense it is not a religion but a relationship - like being married.

At the heart of Christianity is the man Jesus who is God’s Son. He is the one we are called to trust. He is the one we are called to learn from and whose life is an example for us to follow. He is the one who gave up his life so that those who trust him could be forgiven (see the Gospel of John in the bible, chapter 3 and verse 16-17).

Jesus claims to be the only way that we can be right with God. In John 14:6 he says “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no one comes to God (and gets into heaven) but by me!” So Jesus actually claims that he is the one in whom you must trust and who teaches the one true faith.

Now anyone can say that. I could get up in Trafalgar Square and say that. I would probably be locked up! It is easy to say but hard to prove. Jesus proves he has the right to say “I am the Way” by rising from the dead. No one else has died and risen again but Jesus. And that is substantial historical proof that he is who he says he is, and that what he says is true.

This is the most important teaching of Christianity, it is the one on which is rises or falls. If Jesus were to be shown to have not risen from the dead then Christianity is useless. I say to my unbelieving friends, if you can prove to me that Jesus did not rise from the dead, then I will no longer be a Christian. After 20 years, I am still waiting for them to come up with a good argument.

So I encourage you to investigate the claims of Jesus, look at the historical evidence for the resurrection. Any book by Josh McDowell would be helpful here or The Christ Files by John Dickson. Read the biography of Jesus written by Luke (in the BIble). Ask yourself who is Jesus and can I trust him? You will see that to believe in Jesus is less of a leap in the dark and more of a welcome relief.

For the record, I read every word you typed. My response to the bolded is Bertrand Russell’s 1950-ish “Russell’s Teapot” and the burden of proof being on the party making the claim that an event did indeed happen.