Maybe we need to face some facts.

[Vol8188]

Throughout an extensive investigation, never once was Schiano considered an eyewitness nor a suspect of any wrong doing. Thus, dismissing any credibility of the third party hearsay.

However, ignoring all of that, you believe that a public outcry to tarnish a man is justified so that you can express frustration with a college administration.

Ironically, it takes a real lack of wisdom and morals to do such a thing.

That in no way dismisses the credibility of the hearsay. It just means that hearsay isn't permissible in court nor can you be charged with a crime based on heresay. It says nothing about the credibility of the hear say. It may be true, it may not be.

And vol fans didn't release his name. Vol fans didn't start the hearsay. We simply didn't want to hire a coach with such major accusations against him. Which is perfectly reasonable. If you'd heard serious rumors about a person you were about to hire and you still hired them because they had never been charged with a crime and it was just hearsay, you'd be a fool.

That's what requires a real lack of morals and wisdom. Hiring someone knowing the serious allegations that have been made against them.

 

[BanditVol]

This isn't going to be received well. Most of us don't want to hear it, much less believe it. If we really take that long, hard look in the mirror, though, deep down we'll know it's the truth.

Tennessee is tarnished and we, the fans, are PART of the problem.

We demanded that a Hall of Fame coach with 100 more wins than losses, multiple SEC championship and a national title be fired. We ran a guy out of town who pulled us out of the gutter, led us to back to back 9 win seasons and three straight bowl wins. We rioted to block the hire of a coach who built a program from basically nothing, taking it to multiple bowl wins.

Of course Dave Doeren is the best we can get now. No big name coach wants to come near this job. Would you want to bring yourself and your family into that kind of environment? I sure as hell wouldn't. Not when there are other places offering similar jobs without that toxicity.

Tennessee is tarnished. It's toxic. The athletic department shares some blame. The boosters share some blame. We, the fans, have to accept our share of it too.

I agree with this in descending order.

1. Those who thought it was a good idea to jettison Fulmer for Kiffin are among the stupidest human beings to ever walk the planet, and deserve every bit of this decline.

2. Butch deserved a chance, but IMO he got it. I do think the reaction to him was overblown, and the impatience that started in early 2015 was premature. At the end of the day, it was in fact time for him to go though.

3. Schiano should not have been considered. I am okay with the rejection.

Still and yet, let's see what we get.

 

[Hubbard]

What do you think the voice of the fans has done? It may not have reached Crackpipe Currie, but it did reach the boosters. Boosters who are smart enough to know that without fans to fill a stadium, their money is utterly wasted.

I believe that the boosters are mostly in a power among themselves.

It is true that they are smart enough to know that some fans will reduce financial support to a program they do not agree with. However, they also realize that UT fans have traditionally supported, financially, the program through a long drought of success.

They also must be concerned with the program, fan base included, becoming toxic. While the toxicity has started with poor decisions in the administration, somewhat caused by donor influence, it has now spread into a section of the fan base that represents the brand poorly.

Too many people believe that to be heard you must be absurd. This is how a child thinks when it pitches a fit. They have not developed the maturity to act differently. Holding them accountable causes either growth or more poor behavior. The immature child does not understand that their behavior, and not their desire, is at issue.

There is a simple way for the fans to express their lack of agreement while, at the same time, not becoming the immature child that either get ridiculed or laughed at.

Simply state with word and money that you do not support the current decisions being made. That reality is dramatic enough.

 

[Hubbard]

Simple... Fans like you who take whatever tripe Jimmy haslam sends our way. The "WE GOTTA SUPPORT DA BOYZ!" crowd who will continue to fill the coffers of an athletic department who doesn't give two flying ****s about you because you will continue to give them your hard earned cash no matter how pathetic the product that the abortion they call a coach produces and then the players suffer because you are either too misguided or too stupid to put your foot down and say enough is enough. I demand excellence or I will not give you another dime.

One customer won't even make a ripple but enough and you have a tsunami.

Well, again, you miss the subject matter and just mouth off like a child.

Stop accepting mediocrity with your money while being foolish with your words.

If you have the power you think, you are to blame for accepting this mess.

 

[Hacksaw]

This isn't going to be received well. Most of us don't want to hear it, much less believe it. If we really take that long, hard look in the mirror, though, deep down we'll know it's the truth.

Tennessee is tarnished and we, the fans, are PART of the problem.

We demanded that a Hall of Fame coach with 100 more wins than losses, multiple SEC championship and a national title be fired. We ran a guy out of town who pulled us out of the gutter, led us to back to back 9 win seasons and three straight bowl wins. We rioted to block the hire of a coach who built a program from basically nothing, taking it to multiple bowl wins.

Of course Dave Doeren is the best we can get now. No big name coach wants to come near this job. Would you want to bring yourself and your family into that kind of environment? I sure as hell wouldn't. Not when there are other places offering similar jobs without that toxicity.

Tennessee is tarnished. It's toxic. The athletic department shares some blame. The boosters share some blame. We, the fans, have to accept our share of it too.

Pretty much spot on. Many of the more reasonable fans warned the whiners that it wouldn't be easy to go out and get a coach who would be a clear upgrade over the one we already had. But they just didn't want to hear it. We're Tennessee! We'll just throw enough money out there! Anything is better than Butch! Gruden! Gruden! Gruden!

Okay, so now that they got what they wanted, along with what were always the utterly predictable consequences, are they happy? Of course not. The legions of the miserable are still miserable. Only now we have a whole new batch of problems.

 

[CardsNVols]

It's not the fans' job to hire coaches and win football games. This entire late-term abortion of a decade can be laid squarely at the feet of the UT administration and board of trustees where it belongs.

If the games fail to draw 75K next year it will serve every last one of them right. That won't happen, though. You know why? Because the fans are apparently the only ones who actually care. Unless, they have finally been taken for granted beyond the point of no return.

 

[Hubbard]

Its not a child in revolt. Question, do you go to the movies? Would you pay money to see a bad movie? Tennessee is sort of like this. The movie is a bad one 4-8, yet the fans (movie goers) keep filling the theater every Saturday. The only way we the fans can show the theater owners that we want the movie changed is to not go to the theater.

It is how you can deal with every big corporation. Start making changes in your spending habits and either the corporation will change or cease to exist. Yes if enough fans stopped going to the stadium, bowl games, watching them on TV (ratings) Tennessee would have no choice other than to completely change how it is being run.

The bad part is, it will get worse before it gets better.

To use your example, I say stop going to the movies.

What is ludicrous is to keep going to the same bad movie theater then come home to tweet how tired you are of going to see a bad movie.

Stay home for a while and the theater will have to adjust.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

(1) The scale of integrity (from perfect to abysmal) and the continuum of success (from 15-0 down to 4-8) are not correlated. There is no significant causation. Sure, cheating can get you a win or two in the short term, but in the long term it can/may cost you more. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting our program and its leaders to be ethical, mature, respectful and respectable. We can have all that and win championships, too. Just gotta get the right leaders.

(2) Fan bases are vast, amorphous things. Don't be fooled by VN.com; the full Volunteer Nation is huge, massive, you can't begin to know one-tenth of one percent of all of it. Yes, you can characterize the fan base as a whole, but you must use very general statements; otherwise, you lose coherence with the entirety.

(3) What's happening right now between the UT administration (including our inept AD), the booster community (factionalized as it seems to be) and the part of the fan base that is engaged (probably well under 5%) is important. It may be program-defining for the next decade. It is chaotic and messy and, in places, ugly. But that doesn't mean it might not, in the medium and long term, be the best path forward, the most beneficial option.

(4) The national media can reasonably be ignored, for now. They have not yet shown that they see any of the real currents flowing around the head coach search. All they see are wave tops: Shicano offered, vocal outcry, Schiano rejected, Brohm offered, Brohm declined...that's all they see. They are blind to the behind-the-scenes battle for control among the boosters. They never saw in any detail the hopes of the fan base, the expectation for a Patterson-Peterson-Gruden level outcome, so they do not "get" the disappointment of the offers made. They are part of the "forgive any sleaze after a bit of time" mentality brought to us originally by Hollywood, so don't understand why values matter when a Schiano or Kiffin is mooted as an option. It is almost astounding how many ways they don't see the full picture. Ignore them; one day, they'll catch up with some of it.

So back to the OP: is Tennessee tarnished? Not really. We are in the middle of a power struggle for control of the athletic programs (and possibly much more), but we are not tarnished. Eventually, it will all be sorted. Hopefully, we'll be far better off for it.

And the fans? We're just being fans, with every possible element you can imagine represented somewhere among the millions of us. Including those (the majority) who have very little idea any of this is going on.

Go Vols! To a brighter future!

 

[Vol737]

This isn't going to be received well. Most of us don't want to hear it, much less believe it. If we really take that long, hard look in the mirror, though, deep down we'll know it's the truth.

Tennessee is tarnished and we, the fans, are PART of the problem.

We demanded that a Hall of Fame coach with 100 more wins than losses, multiple SEC championship and a national title be fired. We ran a guy out of town who pulled us out of the gutter, led us to back to back 9 win seasons and three straight bowl wins. We rioted to block the hire of a coach who built a program from basically nothing, taking it to multiple bowl wins.

Of course Dave Doeren is the best we can get now. No big name coach wants to come near this job. Would you want to bring yourself and your family into that kind of environment? I sure as hell wouldn't. Not when there are other places offering similar jobs without that toxicity.

Tennessee is tarnished. It's toxic. The athletic department shares some blame. The boosters share some blame. We, the fans, have to accept our share of it too.

We had Brohm. THEY f’d it up. Not the fans.

 

[J C Higgins]

This isn't going to be received well. Most of us don't want to hear it, much less believe it. If we really take that long, hard look in the mirror, though, deep down we'll know it's the truth.

Tennessee is tarnished and we, the fans, are PART of the problem.

We demanded that a Hall of Fame coach with 100 more wins than losses, multiple SEC championship and a national title be fired. We ran a guy out of town who pulled us out of the gutter, led us to back to back 9 win seasons and three straight bowl wins. We rioted to block the hire of a coach who built a program from basically nothing, taking it to multiple bowl wins.

Of course Dave Doeren is the best we can get now. No big name coach wants to come near this job. Would you want to bring yourself and your family into that kind of environment? I sure as hell wouldn't. Not when there are other places offering similar jobs without that toxicity.

Tennessee is tarnished. It's toxic. The athletic department shares some blame. The boosters share some blame. We, the fans, have to accept our share of it too.

Yes, the fans are responsible for significant share of this debacle. Don't have time to elaborate now but will later. Schiano wasn't on my list but in retrospect he might have been the best realistic option available.

And I say realistic because there were some on everybody's list that were never a realistic option.

 

[Hubbard]

That in no way dismisses the credibility of the hearsay. It just means that hearsay isn't permissible in court nor can you be charged with a crime based on heresay. It says nothing about the credibility of the hear say. It may be true, it may not be.

And vol fans didn't release his name. Vol fans didn't start the hearsay. We simply didn't want to hire a coach with such major accusations against him. Which is perfectly reasonable. If you'd heard serious rumors about a person you were about to hire and you still hired them because they had never been charged with a crime and it was just hearsay, you'd be a fool.

That's what requires a real lack of morals and wisdom. Hiring someone knowing the serious allegations that have been made against them.

A lack of character creates a false narrative to justify the means to an end. At least be honest. You did want him based on his coaching resume.

Continuing to give hearsay the power of fact is foolish. Hearsay is not even to the standard of "serious rumor".

What you are willing to accept is that hearsay should be used to define yourself in public, by anyone who does not know you, and hold you back in your profession.

And you call that wisdom.

 

[OrangeSticks]

But it doesn't HAVE to be. A good motivated coach can change everything you just said.

This is what I keep wondering about. We hear all the time that most, if not all, head coaches are ego maniacs. Where is the coach who thinks enough of himself to say, I can fix this $h**! Give me a 3 to 4 year contract for a reasonable amount and I’ll prove it! Then you can pay me big for sustained success!!

 

[LSU-SIU]

Yes, the fans are responsible for significant share of this debacle. Don't have time to elaborate now but will later. Schiano wasn't on my list but in retrospect he might have been the best realistic option available.

And I say realistic because there were some on everybody's list that were never a realistic option.

Pretty much.

 

[Vol8188]

A lack of character creates a false narrative to justify the means to an end. At least be honest. You did want him based on his coaching resume.

Continuing to give hearsay the power of fact is foolish.

What you are willing to accept is that hearsay should be used to define yourself in public, by anyone who does not know you, and hold you back in your profession.

And you call that wisdom.

So if you were about to hire someone and you'd heard rumors he was a pedophile, you'd still hire him because they're just rumors right?

Yes, I 100% call protecting the integrity of our program wise. Dismissing hearsay on the other hand is grossly irresponsible

 

[VolCalls]

Fan have certainly played a huge part in this but whatever is going on behind the scenes is baffling.

It will all make sense once the hire is announced. There are reasons erroneous information is being reported by the media weeks later.

 

[VolCalls]

We had Brohm. THEY f’d it up. Not the fans.

Brohm is a budding superstar, but we have one better.

 

[andywilson001]

This isn't going to be received well. Most of us don't want to hear it, much less believe it. If we really take that long, hard look in the mirror, though, deep down we'll know it's the truth.

Tennessee is tarnished and we, the fans, are PART of the problem.

We demanded that a Hall of Fame coach with 100 more wins than losses, multiple SEC championship and a national title be fired. We ran a guy out of town who pulled us out of the gutter, led us to back to back 9 win seasons and three straight bowl wins. We rioted to block the hire of a coach who built a program from basically nothing, taking it to multiple bowl wins.

Of course Dave Doeren is the best we can get now. No big name coach wants to come near this job. Would you want to bring yourself and your family into that kind of environment? I sure as hell wouldn't. Not when there are other places offering similar jobs without that toxicity.

Tennessee is tarnished. It's toxic. The athletic department shares some blame. The boosters share some blame. We, the fans, have to accept our share of it too.

I regret nothing

 

[jakez4ut]

(1) The scale of integrity (from perfect to abysmal) and the continuum of success (from 15-0 down to 4-8) are not correlated. There is no significant causation. Sure, cheating can get you a win or two in the short term, but in the long term it can/may cost you more. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting our program and its leaders to be ethical, mature, respectful and respectable. We can have all that and win championships, too. Just gotta get the right leaders.

(2) Fan bases are vast, amorphous things. Don't be fooled by VN.com; the full Volunteer Nation is huge, massive, you can't begin to know one-tenth of one percent of all of it. Yes, you can characterize the fan base as a whole, but you must use very general statements; otherwise, you lose coherence with the entirety.

(3) What's happening right now between the UT administration (including our inept AD), the booster community (factionalized as it seems to be) and the part of the fan base that is engaged (probably well under 5%) is important. It may be program-defining for the next decade. It is chaotic and messy and, in places, ugly. But that doesn't mean it might not, in the medium and long term, be the best path forward, the most beneficial option.

(4) The national media can reasonably be ignored, for now. They have not yet shown that they see any of the real currents flowing around the head coach search. All they see are wave tops: Shicano offered, vocal outcry, Schiano rejected, Brohm offered, Brohm declined...that's all they see. They are blind to the behind-the-scenes battle for control among the boosters. They never saw in any detail the hopes of the fan base, the expectation for a Patterson-Peterson-Gruden level outcome, so they do not "get" the disappointment of the offers made. They are part of the "forgive any sleaze after a bit of time" mentality brought to us originally by Hollywood, so don't understand why values matter when a Schiano or Kiffin is mooted as an option. It is almost astounding how many ways they don't see the full picture. Ignore them; one day, they'll catch up with some of it.

So back to the OP: is Tennessee tarnished? Not really. We are in the middle of a power struggle for control of the athletic programs (and possibly much more), but we are not tarnished. Eventually, it will all be sorted. Hopefully, we'll be far better off for it.

And the fans? We're just being fans, with every possible element you can imagine represented somewhere among the millions of us. Including those (the majority) who have very little idea any of this is going on.

Go Vols! To a brighter future!

JP, i know you and i have gone back and forth and have generally disagreed on a lot.

but what i've bolded is something i've been thinking about all week and have struggled to find a way to verbalize.

very well said.

 

[VFL_in_MD]

It will all make sense once the hire is announced. There are reasons erroneous information is being reported by the media weeks later.

Dammit man....what erroneous info are you referring to? Quit being so coy and come out with more info even if you actually have some you don't have to name someone to help yourself become more credible.

 

[Teirnon]

Another Brick in the wall with lyrics - YouTube

 

[tallvolball98]

This isn't going to be received well. Most of us don't want to hear it, much less believe it. If we really take that long, hard look in the mirror, though, deep down we'll know it's the truth.

Tennessee is tarnished and we, the fans, are PART of the problem.

We demanded that a Hall of Fame coach with 100 more wins than losses, multiple SEC championship and a national title be fired. We ran a guy out of town who pulled us out of the gutter, led us to back to back 9 win seasons and three straight bowl wins. We rioted to block the hire of a coach who built a program from basically nothing, taking it to multiple bowl wins.

Of course Dave Doeren is the best we can get now. No big name coach wants to come near this job. Would you want to bring yourself and your family into that kind of environment? I sure as hell wouldn't. Not when there are other places offering similar jobs without that toxicity.

Tennessee is tarnished. It's toxic. The athletic department shares some blame. The boosters share some blame. We, the fans, have to accept our share of it too.

I was with you til you sang butches praises. He was awful. The players hate him and he was saved by Dobbs. We are in this predicament because Currie waited too long to fire him. We as fans do have to take some responsibility for not acting classy.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

JP, i know you and i have gone back and forth and have generally disagreed on a lot.

but what i've bolded is something i've been thinking about all week and have struggled to find a way to verbalize.

very well said.
View attachment 148922

Thanks, Jake.

For the record, I think we agree on a WHOLE lot more than not. It's just that when we agree, we nod our heads at each other's posts, usually silently, and go on our way. So the times we hit "reply" to disagree loom artificially large.

 

[Hubbard]

So if you were about to hire someone and you'd heard rumors he was a pedophile, you'd still hire him because they're just rumors right?

Yes, I 100% call protecting the integrity of our program wise. Dismissing hearsay on the other hand is grossly irresponsible

I use discernment to understand the truth rather than being ruled by hearsay. It is a tool adults use to make decisions rather than being controlled by false report from others.

A fool quickly responds to hearsay without using wisdom and discernment. They are swayed and controlled by others rather than showing the leadership to be an adult.

A lack of character tries to use such weak positions to justify foolish behavior without considering the impact on themselves or others.

Integrity starts with accepting responsibility when you make a poor decision rather than trying to justify it.

 

[jakez4ut]

Thanks, Jake.

For the record, I think we agree on a WHOLE lot more than not. It's just that when we agree, we nod our heads at each other's posts, usually silently, and go on our way. So the times we hit "reply" to disagree loom artificially large.

lol: probably true......good post though, seriously. should get Freak to sticky it at the top of the home screen.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I use discernment to understand the truth rather than being ruled by hearsay. It is a tool adults use to make decisions rather than being controlled by false report from others.

A fool quickly responds to hearsay without using wisdom and discernment. They are swayed and controlled by others rather than showing the leadership to be an adult.

A lack of character tries to use such weak positions to justify foolish behavior without considering the impact on themselves or others.

Integrity starts with accepting responsibility when you make a poor decision rather than trying to justify it.

And humility begins with understanding that your viewpoint isn't the only valid one.

Wisdom and judgment allow a person to weigh all the information available, then reach his or her own conclusion. If person A says person B did something, but person B denies, all of us who weren't there must use their own best judgment. For me, and apparently for 8188, the evidence indicates Schiano might very well have done it.

But whether he did or not, the possibility that he did continues to follow him like a shadow. Even if the forgive-and-forget national media want it to be ignored.

It is like Schroedinger's damn cat inside the box. We will never, ever get to look inside that box ourselves; so, for us, the cat is both maybe-alive and maybe-dead. He exists in both quantum states at the same time. And Schiano is both maybe-guilty and maybe-not at the same time. That's enough to ensure he never goes to jail (innocent until proven guilty), but it's certainly not enough to win a mult-million $$ contract as the head coach of our beloved state university.

Back to the media wanting us to ignore those facts...

The rival coaches talking to a recruit's parents in their living room certainly sure wouldn't ignore it.

And the media wouldn't ignore it, either, much as they say we should. Those very same media who today say we should've hired him would bring it up again and again in the years to come, as "human interest" plots, usually combined with "and don't forget that Title IX scandal."

So you come to your conclusions using what wisdom you have, and we'll come to ours using our own.

My conclusion is this: Schiano would have brought with him a lifelong burden of doubt. One our program can do without. Kiffin is an ongoing disease. And Petrino is no role model we want around our lads. Just because some of these three know the game of football doesn't make them any more appealing, not to me.