Dan Mullen thread (merged)

[golfballs]

Why is he overrated? 64-42 at what is considered an armpit SEC program. Had the #1 ranked team in the country for a couple weeks a few years ago..... at Mississippi State! Developed Dak Prescott and has now done similar work with Nick Fitzgerald who is the best qb in the conference. Just beat a very, very talented LSU team 37-7.

He doesn't have near the resources in Starkville nor the natural advantages that we have in Knoxville as an SEC blue blood program and traditional power. Last Miss State coach who had anything near the success Mullen has had in his tenure there was Jackie Sherrill in the 1990s, who's overall record was 74-76-2.

I'm not advocating that we fire Butch and try to hire Mullen....but let's be real here. Mullen is a hot commodity right now and is considered a pretty highly rated head coach, most seem to think he's the 2nd best head coach in the SEC right now....while I'd wager most think Jones is bottom tier in the SEC and not a top 50-60 coach in the country.

Not saying he's a bad coach. Not by any means. He's a good coach.

I'm saying he's overrated. At least by many on this board

 

[JMSqb11]

and given the margin for error in recruiting rankings I'd say the difference is negligible.

besides, it's not like Mississippi is lacking in talent

Yet in a small circle radius, Miss State has to compete with Bama, Auburn, and Ole Miss in that order...

Miss State gets the leftover scraps after those 3 schools. And he is still winning at a historically losing school by a big margin.

 

[WilliamDuVOL]

I think all of this will be rendered pointless by season's end. People are going back a long way to compare records, common opponents, etc. This season is a perfect comparison between results with Jones (more talent on paper) and Mullen (less talent on paper). We share 5 common opponents:

LSU, UGA, UK, Umass, and Bama.

So far MSU is 1-0, while we've yet to play any of them. I think it will be an interesting comparison.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

You're saying Butch is equal to or better than Mullen by saying Mullen isn't the right guy for the job even though his job performance says otherwise.

Sooooo, which is it?

That's some really bad logic, JMSqb.

We may need a new coach. If we do, that coach should be capable of winning championships.

That's the standard: championships.

Not Butch. Championships.

When I say Dan Mullen is not the right guy, I'm not saying he doesn't meet the "Butch Jones or better" test, because there's no such test.

I'm saying he has shown no capacity for winning championships. That's the yardstick.

Okay?

...

We have gotta get people in this thread off their fixation on Butch Jones. He's not part of the equation of this thread's question.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Further observations :

Mullen is 64- 42 in his head coaching career for a 60% win percentage - At Mississippi State

Butch is 32-22 in his head coaching career for a 64% win percentage

Mullen is 29 -64 in SEC play as a head coach for a 45% win percentage - At Mississippi State

Butch is 14 - 32 in SEC play as a head coach for a 44% win percentage

Fixed your post.

 

[Behr]

You're saying Butch is equal to or better than Mullen by saying Mullen isn't the right guy for the job even though his job performance says otherwise.

Sooooo, which is it?

Since you're telling him what he is saying by what he is saying, why don't you tell him he's saying what you want him to be saying, and call it a day?

 

[JMSqb11]

Heh, I don't hate Dan Mullen at all. I actually kind of like the guy. Seems personable, and is a good football coach. Seems to treat his players and staff well.

But he's not the right guy for Tennessee. Period.

TL;DR: Your straw man argument didn't work.

The guy is winning at the armpit of the SEC by 11% better than the all time average of 49%...

Yet Butch is winning at a rate of 10% less than UT's historical 68% winning percentage.

So if Mullen is just another Butch, why do the numbers say otherwise?

 

[JMSqb11]

That's some really bad logic, JMSqb.

We may need a new coach. If we do, that coach should be capable of winning championships.

That's the standard: championships.

Not Butch. Championships.

When I say Dan Mullen is not the right guy, I'm not saying he doesn't meet the "Butch Jones or better" test, because there's no such test.

I'm saying he has shown no capacity for winning championships. That's the yardstick.

Okay?

...

We have gotta get people in this thread off their fixation on Butch Jones. He's not part of the equation of this thread's question.

There are only 4 championship coaches coaching right now. Which of the 4 are you going to get to leave their school to come to Tennessee? Because those are the only 4 options we can consider by your logic.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

The guy is winning at the armpit of the SEC by 11% better than the all time average of 49%...

Yet Butch is winning at a rate of 10% less than UT's historical 68% winning percentage.

So if Mullen is just another Butch, why do the numbers say otherwise?

You're still bringing up Butch.

This most emphatically is not about Butch.

It's about whether Dan Mullen is capable of winning championships. If he's not (and all indications show that he's not), he's not the right coach for Tennnessee, when we go looking.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

There are only 4 championship coaches coaching right now. Which of the 4 are you going to get to leave their school to come to Tennessee? Because those are the only 4 options we can consider by your logic.

Dunno yet.

And importantly, don't have to answer that question in this thread.

Because this thread was created to debate one simple question: is Dan Mullen that guy?

And the answer is, clearly, no. He's not.

We can discuss who might be the right guy in any of the several threads created over the past week with that as their topic.

This one is about Dan.

 

[BeardedVol]

You're still bringing up Butch.

This most emphatically is not about Butch.

It's about whether Dan Mullen is capable of winning championships. If he's not (and all indications show that he's not), he's not the right coach for Tennnessee, when we go looking.

May be you should go back and read the thread from the beginning...so you can have a slight bit of context...

Every volnation thread has “Hire Mullen”posts so I thought it would be interesting to take an objective look at Mullen:

Mullen is 6-21 against top 25 teams. He’s never beaten Bama and never won the sec West. In fact, in 8 seasons at MSU, he’s only finished greater than 2nd in the SEC West one time, every other season has been 4th or worse... in 8 seasons he’s only had above .500 record in SEC play 1 time.

His best season and only season to achieve 10 wins was 2013 when they went 10-3 and lost in the Orange Bowl. That was in year, wait for it..... 6 at MSU

Year 1 record - 5-7 (3-5 SEC)
Year 2 - 9-4 (4-4 SEC)
Year 3- 7-6 (2-6 SEC)
Year 4- 8-5 (4-4 SEC)
Year 5- 7-6 (3-5 SEC)
Year 6- 10-3 (6-2 SEC)
Year 7 - 9-4 (4-4 SEC)
Year 8 - 6-7 (3-5 SEC)

An objective look at his numbers suggests Mullen and Butch are cut from the same cloth. Average 8-4 consistent coaches.

 

[JMSqb11]

You're still bringing up Butch.

This most emphatically is not about Butch.

It's about whether Dan Mullen is capable of winning championships. If he's not (and all indications show that he's not), he's not the right coach for Tennnessee, when we go looking.

You are the one who brought up Butch when you said Mullen would be more of the same. When you say Mullen would be equal/more of the same than we have now, you indirectly are comparing him to Butch.

You can't be this dense right?

 

[90 Vol]

and given the margin for error in recruiting rankings I'd say the difference is negligible.

besides, it's not like Mississippi is lacking in talent

Or that people put too much stock in recruiting rankings...

Ok, so let me get this straight. The numbers that support Butch are valid and the numbers that suggest he's underachieving are not? Ok, I got it. :good!:

 

[ProudVOLfan]

I'm seriously going to tell you that the way he recruits now, he will recruit at Tennessee.

The recruits don't come for the facilities or financial statements. They come for a chance to play the game at the next level, to learn under great coaches, and to get a shot at the NFL by playing on big SEC (or B10, or ACC, etc) stages.

I agree with some of what you are saying as far as they come to learn under good coaching and to get a shot at the next level. Now if you were a high school athlete would you rather play at UT with 102,000 and school rich with history or at MSU? Practice/train at top notch facility or MSU? Learn under a coach who obviously knows how to develop players or one who seems to squander talent away? IDK because I have never been in that position but I am thinking If I were, I would pick UT all day EVERY day.. JMO

 

[VFL-82-JP]

You are the one who brought up Butch when you said Mullen would be more of the same. When you say Mullen would be equal/more of the same than we have now, you indirectly are comparing him to Butch.

You can't be this dense right?

Show me where I said that. "More of the same." One single quote, anywhere in this thread, with my name above it. "More of the same."

You can't be this dense, right?

 

[JMSqb11]

Dunno yet.

And importantly, don't have to answer that question in this thread.

Because this thread was created to debate one simple question: is Dan Mullen that guy?

And the answer is, clearly, no. He's not.

We can discuss who might be the right guy in any of the several threads created over the past week with that as their topic.

This one is about Dan.

But by your logic, we should just shut down the program because we aren't going to get Saban, Dabo, Urban, or Jimbo if we make a coaching change. Since those are the only 4 who have won championships and are still coaching, getting anyone other than them means we failed your standards......

Just for the record, you don't want a guy who wins at a rate of 11% better than the program's all time record....

Since you don't want that, you want to keep the same guy winning at a rate of 10% worse than the program's all time record. Lordy Lordy.....

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Would Gary Patterson at TCU be a realistic option? I really wanted him after Dooley was fired.

 

[Boston Vol]

That's some really bad logic, JMSqb.

We may need a new coach. If we do, that coach should be capable of winning championships.

That's the standard: championships.

Not Butch. Championships.

When I say Dan Mullen is not the right guy, I'm not saying he doesn't meet the "Butch Jones or better" test, because there's no such test.

I'm saying he has shown no capacity for winning championships. That's the yardstick.

Okay?

...

We have gotta get people in this thread off their fixation on Butch Jones. He's not part of the equation of this thread's question.

The yardstick is winning championships? So if you were were the AD at Texas in '97 you wouldn't have hired Mack Brown? If you were the AD at OU in '98 you wouldn't have hired Bob Stoops? If you were the AD at LSU in '99 you wouldn't have hired Nick Saban? If you were the AD at LSU in '05 you wouldn't have hired Les Miles? If you were the AD at USC in '00 you wouldn't have hired Pete Carroll? If you were the AD at Stanford in '06 you wouldn't have hired Jim Harbaugh? If you were the AD at Oregon in '08 you wouldn't have promoted Chip Kelly to HC? If you were the AD at Penn St. in '14 you wouldn't have hired James Franklin? If you were the AD at Clemson in '08 you wouldn't have promoted Dabo Swinney to HC? None of those guys had ever won a championship before landing those gigs.

 

[Boston Vol]

Would Gary Patterson at TCU be a realistic option? I really wanted him after Dooley was fired.

He was in November 2008.

 

[Orange_Vol1321]

Since you're telling him what he is saying by what he is saying, why don't you tell him he's saying what you want him to be saying, and call it a day?

Ha.

 

[JMSqb11]

Show me where I said that. "More of the same." One single quote, anywhere in this thread, with my name above it. "More of the same."

You can't be this dense, right?

Recruiting is an intense competition, at which some coaches are better, and others are worse.

All objective indicators say Mullen is on the worse side.

First mention that he is worse than what we currently have, which is Butch

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I agree with some of what you are saying as far as they come to learn under good coaching and to get a shot at the next level. Now if you were a high school athlete would you rather play at UT with 102,000 and school rich with history or at MSU? Practice/train at top notch facility or MSU? Learn under a coach who obviously knows how to develop players or one who seems to squander talent away? IDK because I have never been in that position but I am thinking If I were, I would pick UT all day EVERY day.. JMO

I've never heard a recruit, when interviewed, say that he's going to X or Y school for the nice facilities. Or for the program's robust financial reports. Not even for the nice training facilities, dorms, or chow halls.

You know what they say? "I just felt like I was at home with the people there." "I fit in." "It's a good fit for me." "The coaches are incredible." "I want to play with and learn from the best."

Their answers are never about facilities. They're about the people. The coaches, their fellow players, the community.

And it doesn't matter whether you're in Starkville or Knoxville, a great coaching staff and supportive community can work just as well either place.

Mullen would recruit in Knoxville as he does in Starkville. Nicer facilities and more of a downtown night life might give him a bit of a bump with one recruit out of a hundred. But it won't turn him into a recruiting stud.

He would recruit in Knoxville. As he does in Starkville. What you see is what you get.


p.s. A stadium with 100,000 screaming fans, a stadium with 60,000 screaming fans (hitting cow bells), to a kid who played high school football in front of maybe 5,000, either number is really big and impressive. 102,455 is a point of pride for us, the fan base, but I'm not sure it's the end-all and be-all for the players. Any SEC venue is going to be big-time. Well, maybe except Vandy's, heh.

 

[John Wick]

:good!:
Not sure why this so hard for some people to grasp but it is. The guy obviously isnt the best coach in the league but I think he could do a lot with the talent UT recruits. JMO tho

I'm not a huge fan of Mullen, but I do know that if he is coaching Tennessee last Saturday, the Vols win by three touchdowns. The same could be said for Mason.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

First mention that he is worse than what we currently have, which is Butch

No, I didn't say worse than butch. English is hard, I know, but Butch is nowhere in that.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

But by your logic, we should just shut down the program because we aren't going to get Saban, Dabo, Urban, or Jimbo if we make a coaching change. Since those are the only 4 who have won championships and are still coaching, getting anyone other than them means we failed your standards......

Just for the record, you don't want a guy who wins at a rate of 11% better than the program's all time record....

Since you don't want that, you want to keep the same guy winning at a rate of 10% worse than the program's all time record. Lordy Lordy.....

Din Quixote, you're tilting at windmills again. Never said it's not time for change; I think it might very well be.

But not to Mullen. He is not the answer, as long as we're looking for championships (and we should be, always).