Recruiting Forum Football Talk XXXVI

[Kingston Vol]

Up until last year I always felt we were well prepared, well coached, disciplined.

Even when we were winning last year something seemed off.

I think our defense had a bad game plan for Ga Tech.

I don't see how we are still gnashing teeth over it two weeks later at 2-0. If we had beat ISU by 70 or by 30 it doesn't mean much at all.

Question: a bad game plan with a whole off-season to prepare doesn't concern you? You seem to have confidence this concerns will be addressed and corrected. I think there is reason to doubt it.

 

[SpringBokVol]

Up until last year I always felt we were well prepared, well coached, disciplined.

Even when we were winning last year something seemed off.

I think our defense had a bad game plan for Ga Tech.

I don't see how we are still gnashing teeth over it two weeks later at 2-0. If we had beat ISU by 70 or by 30 it doesn't mean much at all.

I agree with this. Last year felt completely off. Even in the wins.

The years prior under Butch we were well disciplined, played hard, limited penalties and were a tough out for anyone.

I want to get back to that.

The veriable is Shoop.

 

[BruinVol]

I have to disagree. The majority of all Vol fans aren't negative.


The majority of social media "Vol fans" are negative.

Unfortunately, the social media mob is so vocal that it has skewed perceptions of our entire fan base.

We still get better bowl selections when there is an option because of how well our fan base travels to support the Vols. (I highly doubt that the social media negaVols are those that travel)

:hi:

I think the majority of fans on social media aren't negative but much like this board the negative slants get much more attention. It's like so many here think I am negative when in reality my positive posts go mostly undiscussed.

 

[Kingston Vol]

I agree with this. Last year felt completely off. Even in the wins.

The years prior under Butch we were well disciplined, played hard, limited penalties and were a tough out for anyone.

I want to get back to that.

The veriable is Shoop.

Agreed. But can you put toothpaste back in the tube? Once Dooley started to allow this type of thing he was D.O.A. Players didn't respect him anymore. I'm not saying Butch is to that point yet - but it's not something we (fans) would see until it's too late.

 

[SpringBokVol]

Agreed. But can you put toothpaste back in the tube? Once Dooley started to allow this type of thing he was D.O.A. Players didn't respect him anymore. I'm not saying Butch is to that point yet - but it's not something we (fans) would see until it's too late.

Correct. I will be firmly planted on one side or the other after Saturday.

There is no excuse for losing this one.

 

[I4Jay]

Always and I mean ALWAYS getting beat on the edge, getting beat with blitzes due to poor o line yet always sending 4 & 5 out on routes, the clock management ... those are 3 glaring issues that have been here since day one.

 

[BigZiti09]

Question: a bad game plan with a whole off-season to prepare doesn't concern you? You seem to have confidence this concerns will be addressed and corrected. I think there is reason to doubt it.

I don't have a lot of faith in Bob Shoop. But I haven't given up on him. Our defense played well at times last war before the injuries.

Right now the only thing I am concerned about is Florida and I think we can contain them and hopefully build off of that. The Georgia Tech game has zero to do with Florida.

Also, yeah we had an offseason to prepare for Georgia Tech as we do all teams. The advantage is that they weren't sandwiched in between two other games. It's not as if our team has been in game prep for tech for 6 months.

 

[Kingston Vol]

Always and I mean ALWAYS getting beat on the edge, getting beat with blitzes due to poor o line yet always sending 4 & 5 out on routes, the clock management ... those are 3 glaring issues that have been here since day one.

And I'm skeptical about the narrative going around that it's a strategy to save everything for Florida. I've never competed at a level that high, obviously, but it always felt like when we tried to save something in high school for the better teams, it looked like **** because we didn't have any reps doing it.

 

[BigZiti09]

And I'm skeptical about the narrative going around that it's a strategy to save everything for Florida. I've never competed at a level that high, obviously, but it always felt like when we tried to save something in high school for the better teams, it looked like **** because we didn't have any reps doing it.

It's a dumb narrative. It's also dumb to worry about it from the other side. We've faced two offenses that are nothing like Florida's. So we haven't shown much of what Florida will see from us on defense.

I guess what I'm saying is we are gonna run new stuff for Florida but it's gonna come down to can we execute.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Shoop has been a head scratcher. I just can't believe the notion that he just forgot how to run a defense. I am with you on the fact that I am in the middle ground with Shoop. This is his last year on his contract (was only 2 years) and I have been wondering for a little bit now if we will make Hoke the DC if Shoop ends up not working out. However, I am rooting for Shoop. I very much want our staff to stay the way it is in terms of DC and DL coaches because I know they are top rated at those positions.

I think his contract was actually 3 years.


And I'm not of the opinion that he "forgot how to run a defense," but I'm kinda starting to think that maybe the case might be any of the following:

1. Perhaps Brent Pry (his former Co-DC and PSU's current DC) deserved a LOT more credit for those Shoop defenses than he got credit for.

2. Shoop hasn't been as solely focused on running a defense since he got to Knoxville. Whether it's his desire to get a HC job, his contract dispute with PSU, or perhaps some personal issues we don't know about, maybe he's just not as dialed in as he was at VU/PSU.

3. He just doesn't have the same kind of cohesion with staff as he had at PSU/Vandy.


4. (This one is at least partly a factor, IMO, no matter how you slice it) Butch's offense is less compatible with Shoop's defense than Franklin's was. Franklin will slow down games a lot more than Butch and it allowed Shoop's defenders more time to get/stay fresh and/or allowed Shoop more time in the booth to get dialed in making adjustments.


5. Maybe some of the years he was coaching his units just had good luck that helped them look better than they were. In 2013 Vandy got to play UGA when they were down to just a white backup running back and JJ green and virtually no receivers, UF with their worst QB situation of the last 5 years maybe (and that's saying something), and UT with a freshman Dobbs that weighed 190 lbs soaking wet and hadn't developed much as a passer yet. The good offenses they played (Mizzou, aTm, and Ole Miss) scored 51,56, and 39 points against them. In 2014 the only two teams worth much of a damn that PSU played were OSU and MSU, and they both scored 31+ points.




Or of course maybe it's bits and pieces of a a number of these things. I haven't given up on him yet and I think he has a chance to put together a solid unit this year still. But idk if I think he ever was or will be an elite DC anymore.

 

[The Breakerboy]

Always and I mean ALWAYS getting beat on the edge, getting beat with blitzes due to poor o line yet always sending 4 & 5 out on routes, the clock management ... those are 3 glaring issues that have been here since day one.

Setting the edge is basic football on defense. Being able to run it down from the inside when it gets cluttered on the edge is another thing that needs to happen. But it won't happen until Jumper graduates.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Anyone have an interpretation?

I'm guessing Callaway got 100 grams of free weed from somebody.

 

[volatil]

My guess is he got a ton of stuff with a credit card and reported it stolen

So it's 100% free

 

[BigZiti09]

I think his contract was actually 3 years.


And I'm not of the opinion that he "forgot how to run a defense," but I'm kinda starting to think that maybe the case might be any of the following:

1. Perhaps Brent Pry (his former Co-DC and PSU's current DC) deserved a LOT more credit for those Shoop defenses than he got credit for.

2. Shoop hasn't been as solely focused on running a defense since he got to Knoxville. Whether it's his desire to get a HC job, his contract dispute with PSU, or perhaps some personal issues we don't know about, maybe he's just not as dialed in as he was at VU/PSU.

3. He just doesn't have the same kind of cohesion with staff as he had at PSU/Vandy.


4. (This one is at least partly a factor, IMO, no matter how you slice it) Butch's offense is less compatible with Shoop's defense than Franklin's was. Franklin will slow down games a lot more than Butch and it allowed Shoop's defenders more time to get/stay fresh and/or allowed Shoop more time in the booth to get dialed in making adjustments.


5. Maybe some of the years he was coaching his units just had good luck that helped them look better than they were. In 2013 Vandy got to play UGA when they were down to just a white backup running back and JJ green and virtually no receivers, UF with their worst QB situation of the last 5 years maybe (and that's saying something), and UT with a freshman Dobbs that weighed 190 lbs soaking wet and hadn't developed much as a passer yet. The good offenses they played (Mizzou, aTm, and Ole Miss) scored 51,56, and 39 points against them. In 2014 the only two teams worth much of a damn that PSU played were OSU and MSU, and they both scored 31+ points.




Or of course maybe it's bits and pieces of a a number of these things. I haven't given up on him yet and I think he has a chance to put together a solid unit this year still. But idk if I think he ever was or will be an elite DC anymore.

5 is what I always feared. Statistically his defenses looked good but it was fools gold.

 

[nicksjuzunk]

Florida message board has a thread, "Say something nice about Tennessee"

MMmmmmm.... Chandler's

Dat mac n cheese, fried green tomatoes, fried chicken, nana pudding...

 

[Nashvegas31]

-VQ

Believe it when I see it on a Bituli starting at MLB but gives me hope that they are getting the message that Jumper severely limits how good this defense can be. Can't be orange swarm with a turtle at Mike

Also better rotate with all the talk of humidity. Don't need a 4th qtr meltdown

 

[nicksjuzunk]

5 is what I always feared. Statistically his defenses looked good but it was fools gold.

I used to believe that narrative, but moved past it.

I once thought Franklin was a charlatan when Vandy was beating nobody but nobodies, but now accept he's a pretty good coach.

 

[bignewt]

anybody else like the cocks -4 tomorrow?

 

[volatil]

anybody else like the cocks -4 tomorrow?

 

[LynxVol]

Always and I mean ALWAYS getting beat on the edge, getting beat with blitzes due to poor o line yet always sending 4 & 5 out on routes, the clock management ... those are 3 glaring issues that have been here since day one.

CBJ made two replacements that should have helped or are supposed to help the edge issue (hired Shoop and Warren). You can't say that changes haven't been made to make the team better coached. The same goes for the OL. He also made an OC change that will hopefully utilize playmakers better. So, again, the changes have been made. Time will tell if the changes were made too late.

Personally, I think one more problem remains - Thigpen. Not recruiting at an elite level, and he hasn't coached at an elite level.

Overall, I think your points are valid.

 

[jave36]

I used to believe that narrative, but moved past it.

I once thought Franklin was a charlatan when Vandy was beating nobody but nobodies, but now accept he's a pretty good coach.

Ya I hated eating that crow

 

[Vols4us]

Always and I mean ALWAYS getting beat on the edge, getting beat with blitzes due to poor o line yet always sending 4 & 5 out on routes, the clock management ... those are 3 glaring issues that have been here since day one.

Setting the edge is basic football on defense. Being able to run it down from the inside when it gets cluttered on the edge is another thing that needs to happen. But it won't happen until Jumper graduates.

These.

The guys who messed up the opponents being able to get outside easily were DB and a healthy Cam Sutton. Outside of them occasionally getting to the ball carrier, it has been a recurring theme. The common denominator over the 4+ seasons is Butch.

The O-line is not beaten much physically when the right guys are playing, which was a major problem for a few years. More often they are beat mentally. This is why Jay is correct on the play calls. Max protect with the TE when the O-line is getting beat. Go with quicker releasing passes/routes. Have the RB chip and release if no blitz up the middle. The slow developing stuff will only work if it is play action after it has been set up by other stuff. The past O-line coach and OC's are gone. Let's see how Wells/Scott does. I'm seeing some hopeful signs with those two.

If you have obvious weaknesses year after year, they have to be addressed by the HC as soon as he can establish a trend in each game, not just after the game or season. That includes his own mistakes in game management. He's 10+ years in as a HC now, no excuses. This is where I personally believe his commitment to his system is getting in the way at times. Win. Don't care about the system. He can do it if he will get out of his own way. Start tomorrow for this season and approach each game that way.

 

[Enki_Amenra]

anybody else like the cocks -4 tomorrow?

twss

 

[WallyBalls]

It's a dumb narrative. It's also dumb to worry about it from the other side. We've faced two offenses that are nothing like Florida's. So we haven't shown much of what Florida will see from us on defense.

I guess what I'm saying is we are gonna run new stuff for Florida but it's gonna come down to can we execute.

I don't even believe that's any sort of real narrative (the "saving it" stuff) especially against GT. Maybe among the dimmest of fans, but not enough to even worry about. We weren't hiding anything. That's worrisome, I admit.

Now, ISU, I don't blame them a bit. That game was a paid open scrimmage with hired practice players. Basically one day of practice coming in. Run your base stuff and get ready for this week. I know there is disagreement there, but I don't think that game has any bearing on the season good or bad.

Sure, there will be things people point back at, but you can do that with any game.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

:lolabove:lol: