I beg your pardon !

#126
#126
Septic said:
You aren't wrong, Manning should be turning big rocks into little rocks for the rest of his life. The whole idea that a politician can usurp the legal process that is THE foundation of our Republic is astonishing.
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I don't disagree with some of Obama's pardons, especially the ones with harsh or undue sentencing when it came to drug offenses. You and I both know the courts can (and often do) go overboard on sentencing to "make an example." Other Presidents did the same thing in regards to drug offenses, so nobody can point the finger directly at Obama and say he's wrong.

However, the Rivera and Manning pardons were inexcusable in my opinion. Especially given Rivera admitted to everything he was doing and planned to do.
 
#128
#128
Grand Vol said:
I don't disagree with some of Obama's pardons, especially the ones with harsh or undue sentencing when it came to drug offenses. You and I both know the courts can (and often do) go overboard on sentencing to "make an example." Other Presidents did the same thing in regards to drug offenses, so nobody can point the finger directly at Obama and say he's wrong.

However, the Rivera and Manning pardons were inexcusable in my opinion. Especially given Rivera admitted to everything he was doing and planned to do.
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Obama has a special place in his heart for terrorists.
 
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#129
#129
lawgator1 said:
Just out of curiosity, when are you guys going to come up with a defense of Trump's actions that is not based on "But we hate Obama ..."
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Okay, here's my defense...

Article 2 of the U.S. Constitution, Clause 1

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
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Now...what's your objection to Trump exercising the same right that's guaranteed in the Constitution you allegedly swear to uphold?
 
#130
#130
Grand Vol said:
I don't disagree with some of Obama's pardons, especially the ones with harsh or undue sentencing when it came to drug offenses. You and I both know the courts can (and often do) go overboard on sentencing to "make an example." Other Presidents did the same thing in regards to drug offenses, so nobody can point the finger directly at Obama and say he's wrong.

However, the Rivera and Manning pardons were inexcusable in my opinion. Especially given Rivera admitted to everything he was doing and planned to do.
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I see where you're coming from but ultimately I can't agree. If the presidents don't like a law they should rally legislators and lead the charge to change the law. I hate the drug laws as they are now, the war on drugs has been an abject failure and the incarceration of these low level drug dealers is beyond ridiculous.

However, the law is the law and ultimately a product of the will of the people - even when it's obviously terribly conceived and executed. Elected officials should not be able to decide to usurp the final "product" of the judicial and legislative branches.

I'm a big fan of the term, 'don't do the crime if you can't do the time.'
 
#133
#133
Septic said:
I see where you're coming from but ultimately I can't agree. If the presidents don't like a law they should rally legislators and lead the charge to change the law. I hate the drug laws as they are now, the war on drugs has been an abject failure and the incarceration of these low level drug dealers is beyond ridiculous.

However, the law is the law and ultimately a product of the will of the people - even when it's obviously terribly conceived and executed. Elected officials should not be able to decide to usurp the final "product" of the judicial and legislative branches.

I'm a big fan of the term, 'don't do the crime if you can't do the time.'
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I can't agree from a "minimum sentencing" standpoint on that. Punishment should fit the crime, not have it mandated "you will send them away for so long." Obviously, there are special exceptions to this rule, repeated offenders for example, but by and large, a first time offense shouldn't generate a maximum sentence as it has and sometimes will continue to do.

The thing about it, as I pointed out above, the Founding Fathers put that item in the original Constitution for a reason. I think they got the rest of it right for the most part and they likely had a good reason for it when it was written out. Balance of powers and whatnot. It's well within a President's legal right to pardon someone if they feel it is appropriate. We might not agree with it, but it was written out by men far smarter than we are.
 
#134
#134
Grand Vol said:
I can't agree from a "minimum sentencing" standpoint on that. Punishment should fit the crime, not have it mandated "you will send them away for so long." Obviously, there are special exceptions to this rule, repeated offenders for example, but by and large, a first time offense shouldn't generate a maximum sentence as it has and sometimes will continue to do.

The thing about it, as I pointed out above, the Founding Fathers put that item in the original Constitution for a reason. I think they got the rest of it right for the most part and they likely had a good reason for it when it was written out. Balance of powers and whatnot. It's well within a President's legal right to pardon someone if they feel it is appropriate. We might not agree with it, but it was written out by men far smarter than we are.
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You make a good point with the bolded. In retrospect and after educating myself on the rationale behind why our FF implemented this - it's exactly because of that. The 'kings law' often had severe (death) punishments for realitively minor infractions.

I see your point more clearly now and agree that there is a place and time for pardons. You're going to need to put in more work to convince me that political and partisan expediency is a valid reason to pardon, not that I'd expect you to.
 
#135
#135
Grand Vol said:
Okay, here's my defense...

Article 2 of the U.S. Constitution, Clause 1



Now...what's your objection to Trump exercising the same right that's guaranteed in the Constitution you allegedly swear to uphold?
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I don't think he should pardon a law enforcement officer found guilty of violating the law, and in fact abusing his position to do so. It is made worse by the fact that his was a bias-based crime. Intentional, and over a long period of time.
 
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#136
#136
lawgator1 said:
I don't think he should pardon a law enforcement officer found guilty of violating the law, and in fact abusing his position to do so. It is made worse by the fact that his was a bias-based crime. Intentional, and over a long period of time.
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So, you only want to enforce the parts of the Constitution you agree with?

Or just when your party happens to be in office?
 
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#137
#137
Septic said:
You're going to need to put in more work to convince me that political and partisan expediency is a valid reason to pardon, not that I'd expect you to.
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It really sucks when I use that logic thingy, doesn't it?

I would tend to think a lot of the pardons, maybe even go as far as to say the vast majority of them, aren't necessarily partisan based. Just looking over the ones from Obama and Bush 43, there isn't necessarily a correlation with political parties that I could see, however, unless I researched each one, there's no way to tell.

I don't necessarily think political expediency or partisan politics are good reasons to pardon someone. However, again, it was put in for a reason and like who is pardoned or not, there is precedence in the matter as well as the inherent right to pardon without explanation. I think, in retrospect of course, perhaps the POTUS should give a reason for it, but it's not required. It could be helpful though.
 
#138
#138
And one more thing before I head to sleep until I want to wake up (last chance until December more or less)

You think Trump should be impeached for performing an act that's specifically outlined in the Constitution as his right as President?
 
#139
#139
Grand Vol said:
So, you only want to enforce the parts of the Constitution you agree with?

Or just when your party happens to be in office?
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My objection is not legal. He can do it.

My objection is, moral, philosophical, and political.

I don't think Arapio should be in jail. Maybe a weekend followers by probation. But he should have received some punishment for his contempt.

Now, instead of "the system" properly embarrassing him for his decision to play by his own rules, in direct contravention of a court order, he's going to strut around and claim vindication.

This is not good. It's just more of Trump sticking a thumb in the eye of the judiciary over political statements.
 
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#140
#140
lawgator1 said:
My objection is not legal. He can do it.

My objection is, moral, philosophical, and political.

I don't think Arapio should be in jail. Maybe a weekend followers by probation. But he should have received some punishment for his contempt.

Now, instead of "the system" properly embarrassing him for his decision to play by his own rules, in direct contravention of a court order, he's going to strut around and claim vindication.

This is not good. It's just more of Trump sticking a thumb in the eye of the judiciary over political statements.
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There it is. Basically just being the partisan hack you complain about.
 
#141
#141
lawgator1 said:
My objection is not legal. He can do it.

My objection is, moral, philosophical, and political.

I don't think Arapio should be in jail. Maybe a weekend followers by probation. But he should have received some punishment for his contempt.

Now, instead of "the system" properly embarrassing him for his decision to play by his own rules, in direct contravention of a court order, he's going to strut around and claim vindication.

This is not good. It's just more of Trump sticking a thumb in the eye of the judiciary over political statements.
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Do you have a problem with lying or perjury under oath to Congress? Where is your outrage?
 
#144
#144
Tfw trump is basically a dem but we have to politicize everything. Get lives and stop watching trash globalist news networks.
 
#145
#145
1972 Grad said:
How about Sheriff Joe was in Obama's crosshairs because he wasn't down with Obama's open border policy?
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Joe Arpaio was in GWB crosshairs first back in 2007. He's was under federal investigation for almost 10 years. When a persons office is the target of over target of 2,150 lawsuits Federal lawsuits and is forced to pay out more than $50 million in claims between 2004 to November 2007 that catches the eye of anyone throughout politics.
 
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#146
#146
Since my patient is sleeping and I'm bored at work. Here are some of the types of people Obama pardoned.

James Robert Adelman

Offense:

Conspiracy to embezzle by trustee or officer; embezzlement by trustee (five counts); making a false account (Northern District of Oklahoma)


Zachary James Ray Anderson

Offense:

Conspiracy to defraud the United States by knowingly and without lawful authority producing false identification documents (Western District of Kentucky)

Euphemia Lavonte Duncan, aka Euphemia Duncan-Stringer

Offense:

Bank fraud (Southern District of Florida)


Robert Kevin Hobbs, aka Kevin Hobbs

Offense:

Conspire, confederate to commit wire fraud; aid and abet to devise a scheme and artifice to defraud Thornton Oil Corp. of money and property, cause funds to be transmitted, by means of wire in interstate commerce; engage in monetary transactions in criminally derived property that is of a value greater than $10,000 and derived from specified unlawful activity; aid and abet to engage in monetary transactions affecting interstate commerce in criminally derived property over $10,000 derived from wire fraud (Western District of Kentucky)


Patricia Marie McNichol

Offense:

Bank embezzlement (District of Delaware)


Caryn Lynn Camp, fka Caryn Lynn Camp-Kenworthy

Offense:

Wire fraud (10 counts); mail fraud (two counts); conspiracy to steal trade secrets; conspiracy to transport stolen goods; interstate transportation of stolen goods


Mary Ann Krauser, fka Mary Ann Iron Shield

Offense:

Involuntary manslaughter


Christopher Muratore

Offense:

Devising a scheme to defraud the United States of money and property and devising a scheme to deprive the United States Bankruptcy Court and the citizens of the United States of honest services

Khosrow Afghahi
Offenses: Conspiracy to violate the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S. C. §1705; violation of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. § 1705; conspiracy to commit money laundering, 18 U.S.C. §§ 1956(a)(2)(A), (a)(2)(B)(1), & (h); money laundering 18 U.S.C. § 1956(a)(2)(A) and (B)(1)
 
#147
#147
volsarelife1 said:
Since my patient is sleeping and I'm bored at work. Here are some of the types of people Obama pardoned.

James Robert Adelman

Offense:

Conspiracy to embezzle by trustee or officer; embezzlement by trustee (five counts); making a false account (Northern District of Oklahoma)


Zachary James Ray Anderson

Offense:

Conspiracy to defraud the United States by knowingly and without lawful authority producing false identification documents (Western District of Kentucky)

Euphemia Lavonte Duncan, aka Euphemia Duncan-Stringer

Offense:

Bank fraud (Southern District of Florida)


Robert Kevin Hobbs, aka Kevin Hobbs

Offense:

Conspire, confederate to commit wire fraud; aid and abet to devise a scheme and artifice to defraud Thornton Oil Corp. of money and property, cause funds to be transmitted, by means of wire in interstate commerce; engage in monetary transactions in criminally derived property that is of a value greater than $10,000 and derived from specified unlawful activity; aid and abet to engage in monetary transactions affecting interstate commerce in criminally derived property over $10,000 derived from wire fraud (Western District of Kentucky)


Patricia Marie McNichol

Offense:

Bank embezzlement (District of Delaware)


Caryn Lynn Camp, fka Caryn Lynn Camp-Kenworthy

Offense:

Wire fraud (10 counts); mail fraud (two counts); conspiracy to steal trade secrets; conspiracy to transport stolen goods; interstate transportation of stolen goods


Mary Ann Krauser, fka Mary Ann Iron Shield

Offense:

Involuntary manslaughter


Christopher Muratore

Offense:

Devising a scheme to defraud the United States of money and property and devising a scheme to deprive the United States Bankruptcy Court and the citizens of the United States of honest services

Khosrow Afghahi
Offenses: Conspiracy to violate the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S. C. §1705; violation of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. § 1705; conspiracy to commit money laundering, 18 U.S.C. §§ 1956(a)(2)(A), (a)(2)(B)(1), & (h); money laundering 18 U.S.C. § 1956(a)(2)(A) and (B)(1)
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Sherrif deputies under Arpioe beat and killed a bind mentally disabled inmate and tried to blame it on him falling from a 4-foot, 2 inch bunk. When investigators asked to see the surveillance video it was discovered that Arpaio had the tapes destroyed. The crimes that took place under Arpioe are far worst than some white collar crime.
 
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#148
#148
carlos86 said:
Sherrif deputies under Arpioe beat and killed a bind mentally disabled inmate and tried to blame it on him falling from a 4-foot, 2 inch bunk. When investigators asked to see the surveillance video it was discovered that Arpaio had the tapes destroyed. The crimes that took place under Arpioe are far worst than some white collar crime.
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And Oscar Lopez Rivera was a terrorist.
 
#149
#149
carlos86 said:
Sherrif deputies under Arpioe beat and killed a bind mentally disabled inmate and tried to blame it on him falling from a 4-foot, 2 inch bunk. When investigators asked to see the surveillance video it was discovered that Arpaio had the tapes destroyed. The crimes that took place under Arpioe are far worst than some white collar crime.
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Nice spin job.
 
#150
#150
Trump pardons a racist SOB. Just another regular day in America since January.

Trump dons a KKK hood and tweets the photo. Just another regular day in America since January.
 
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