Charlottesville white nationalists riots

[carlos86]

This is going to seem odd coming from a Liberal but this is how I feel:

Leave the statues in place. Like it or not they are part of our history. They were put in place by our American ancestors who believed they deserved to be there. They represent so much more than just a person. They represent the events of a place and time in human history. When we look at ancient Egyptian, Greek or Roman statues we don't overly obsess about the person depicted. What we really think about and try to understand is the civilization and people of the time. Many of these ancient statues are of some very bad people who had them erected themselves to honor themselves. But because someone preserved history we are able to understand this. We don't tear them down now because of who they were and fortunately they didn't either.

No, our statutes need to stand. The generals and soldiers on those pedestals were just people fighting for what they believed in at the time. If we are fortunate and don't destroy ourselves our descendants and future historians will be able to put it all in perspective.

If nothing else give people the chance to see them and wonder about how things were for themselves.

The Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans raised statues to honor and celebrate their best. Their best scholars, best generals, and best leaders. Do you know what the Romans did to the statues of Emperaers especially the ones like Caligula, Commodus, Nero and Domitian who failed them and committed atrocities??? They erased them from history. It was called Damnatio memoriae or "condemnation of memory," meaning that a person must not be remembered or celebrated. They tore their statues down and erased their names from public record because they were not to be celebrated but to be ashamed of. Monuments aren't historical.
Monuments are celebratory. And 150 years later the South is still determined to celebrate its lost cause. A Rebellion that they started not because of states rights which was never mentioned in any of their secession declarations but because of Slavery. For too long Southerners have attempted to hide the experience and motivation for the Confederates to secede from the Union. They are inseparable. Armies of Rebels and traitors who broke their oaths to their country and broke faith with the Union don't get nor do they deserve monuments to their defeat. Only the victors do. And lets not forget the sole reason that these statues were erected in the first place during the 1920s -1960s. To remind African Americans living through Jim Crow and Segregation of who was still in charge and slavery or not they would still find ways to oppress them.

 

[lawgator1]

This is going to seem odd coming from a Liberal but this is how I feel:

Leave the statues in place. Like it or not they are part of our history. They were put in place by our American ancestors who believed they deserved to be there. They represent so much more than just a person. They represent the events of a place and time in human history. When we look at ancient Egyptian, Greek or Roman statues we don't overly obsess about the person depicted. What we really think about and try to understand is the civilization and people of the time. Many of these ancient statues are of some very bad people who had them erected themselves to honor themselves. But because someone preserved history we are able to understand this. We don't tear them down now because of who they were and fortunately they didn't either.

No, our statutes need to stand. The generals and soldiers on those pedestals were just people fighting for what they believed in at the time. If we are fortunate and don't destroy ourselves our descendants and future historians will be able to put it all in perspective.

If nothing else give people the chance to see them and wonder about how things were for themselves.

This is not, and never was, about the statues. First, history is history and cannot be changed. But we can choose what we celebrate. Celebrating fighting for secession, in part to maintain slavery, is not noble.

Second, the alt right isn't about just racial division and superiority. The statues are a convenient rallying cause, to try to make their extremist views more palatable by portraying them as simply historical.

This is not about the statues. And the vast majority post date 1920. They were erected in that time frame by descendants of those who died and sought to memorialize them. A large portion post date 1960. Those were put up to counter the civil rights movement. So don't be fooled into thinking that a community that decides to take them down is comitting some egregious act of heresy.

That's the misguided premise the alt right, and Herr Trump, are pushing, to make this about something innocuous. It's not.

 

[hog88]

The Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans raised statues to honor and celebrate their best. Their best scholars, best generals, and best leaders. Do you know what the Romans did to the statues of Emperaers especially the ones like Caligula, Commodus, Nero and Domitian who failed them and committed atrocities??? They erased them from history. It was called Damnatio memoriae or "condemnation of memory," meaning that a person must not be remembered or celebrated. They tore their statues down and erased their names from public record because they were not to be celebrated but to be ashamed of. Monuments aren't historical.
Monuments are celebratory. And 150 years later the South is still determined to celebrate its lost cause. A Rebellion that they started not because of states rights which was never mentioned in any of their secession declarations but because of Slavery. For too long Southerners have attempted to hide the experience and motivation for the Confederates to secede from the Union. They are inseparable. Armies of Rebels and traitors who broke their oaths to their country and broke faith with the Union don't get nor do they deserve monuments to their defeat. Only the victors do. And lets not forget the sole reason that these statues were erected in the first place during the 1920s -1960s. To remind African Americans living through Jim Crow and Segregation of who was still in charge and slavery or not they would still find ways to oppress them.

Then the statues should stay because most of the BEST southern Generals we also at one time the best US Officers.

 

[MT LeConte]

The city of Baltimore removed all four of their Confederate Statues during the night. At least it looks like they are going to preserve them and maybe relocate them to a Confederate cemetery.

 

[1972 Grad]

This is not, and never was, about the statues. First, history is history and cannot be changed. But we can choose what we celebrate. Celebrating fighting for secession, in part to maintain slavery, is not noble.

Second, the alt right isn't about just racial division and superiority. The statues are a convenient rallying cause, to try to make their extremist views more palatable by portraying them as simply historical.

This is not about the statues. And the vast majority post date 1920. They were erected in that time frame by descendants of those who died and sought to memorialize them. A large portion post date 1960. Those were put up to counter the civil rights movement. So don't be fooled into thinking that a community that decides to take them down is comitting some egregious act of heresy.

That's the misguided premise the alt right, and Herr Trump, are pushing, to make this about something innocuous. It's not.

Would you mind telling me who the alt right is, and where I can finds a stated agenda for them? Is there a membership list somewhere, or is it just something you folks made up to lump your political opponents together to have someone to hate? Since you hate the alt right, I may want to join. Is there a website for them?

 

[FLVOL_79]

The city of Baltimore removed all four of their Confederate Statues during the night. At least it looks like they are going to preserve them and maybe relocate them to a Confederate cemetery.

Those are next to go.

 

[1972 Grad]

This is not, and never was, about the statues. First, history is history and cannot be changed. But we can choose what we celebrate. Celebrating fighting for secession, in part to maintain slavery, is not noble.

Second, the alt right isn't about just racial division and superiority. The statues are a convenient rallying cause, to try to make their extremist views more palatable by portraying them as simply historical.

This is not about the statues. And the vast majority post date 1920. They were erected in that time frame by descendants of those who died and sought to memorialize them. A large portion post date 1960. Those were put up to counter the civil rights movement. So don't be fooled into thinking that a community that decides to take them down is comitting some egregious act of heresy.

That's the misguided premise the alt right, and Herr Trump, are pushing, to make this about something innocuous. It's not.

Ivanka had better be on her toes, or daddy will send her and her husband to the gas chamber.

 

[hog88]

Would you mind telling me who the alt right is, and where I can finds a stated agenda for them? Is there a membership list somewhere, or is it just something you folks made up to lump your political opponents together to have someone to hate?

Anyone who isn't a card carrying dem.

 

[FLVOL_79]

Everyone does know the leftist Antifa people are who instigated the violence during this protest right?


Pro tip..small fringe group of nutbags want to march let them march, don't pepper spray them, throw bricks at them, attack them, or try to deny them their constitutional and civil rights just because they have a different (and retarded) opinion than yours. It makes you look like d-bags...and you get run over by cars more often than not.

 

[joevol33]

Those are next to go.

I agree, which leads to my question. What then? I literally have no feelings concerning any statues, confederate flag, etc. I do see it on one hand though that the left is trying to do away with anything that offends anyone in their base. Do after all the statues, flags, and good grief even the Dukes of hazard! You know they'll find something.

 

[MT LeConte]

The Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans raised statues to honor and celebrate their best. Their best scholars, best generals, and best leaders. Do you know what the Romans did to the statues of Emperaers especially the ones like Caligula, Commodus, Nero and Domitian who failed them and committed atrocities??? They erased them from history. It was called Damnatio memoriae or "condemnation of memory," meaning that a person must not be remembered or celebrated. They tore their statues down and erased their names from public record because they were not to be celebrated but to be ashamed of. Monuments aren't historical.
Monuments are celebratory. And 150 years later the South is still determined to celebrate its lost cause. A Rebellion that they started not because of states rights which was never mentioned in any of their secession declarations but because of Slavery. For too long Southerners have attempted to hide the experience and motivation for the Confederates to secede from the Union. They are inseparable. Armies of Rebels and traitors who broke their oaths to their country and broke faith with the Union don't get nor do they deserve monuments to their defeat. Only the victors do. And lets not forget the sole reason that these statues were erected in the first place during the 1920s -1960s. To remind African Americans living through Jim Crow and Segregation of who was still in charge and slavery or not they would still find ways to oppress them.

They didn't destroy all of the statues and they can be found in museums today. Some still stand in place. My point was that even though some of these ancient statues are of bad people we are able to understand that and put in proper historical context. I believe our descendants can do the same. Erasing history and even the artifacts of history is Orwellian and must be avoided.




.

 

[joevol33]

They didn't destroy all of the statues and they can be found in museums today. Some still stand in place. My point was that even though these are bad people we are able to understand that and put in proper historical context. I believe our dependents can do the same. Erasing history and even the artifacts of history is Orwellian and must be avoided.

So is that a no to me wanting the saban statue busted up?😬

 

[FLVOL_79]

Then the statues should stay because most of the BEST southern Generals we also at one time the best US Officers.

A few went to West Point..time to shudder that place right?

Washington and Lee College is named after Robert E Lee..time to change the name!

 

[MT LeConte]

So is that a no to me wanting the saban statue busted up?😬

Oh hell, you destroyed my entire argument.

 

[hog88]

A few went to West Point..time to shudder that place right?

Washington and Lee College is named after Robert E Lee..time to change the name!

Many of them went to WP. REL was a WP grad, hell Lincoln offered him command of the Army prior to the war.

 

[FLVOL_79]

They didn't destroy all of the statues and they can be found in museums today. Some still stand in place. My point was that even though some of these ancient statues are of bad people we are able to understand that and put in proper historical context. I believe our descendants can do the same. Erasing history and even the artifacts of history is Orwellian and must be avoided.




.

I have always felt (as a Northerner) that the statues represented a dark time in US history and served as a reminder that over 600,000 American's died fighting each other.

This directly leads to the saying "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

 

[armchair]

Then the statues should stay because most of the BEST southern Generals we also at one time the best US Officers.

"at one time...." Yea, they were--but they chose to give up being U.S. officers and became Southern officers/generals who fought against America. That is kind of a big deal, partner.

 

[05_never_again]

I agree, which leads to my question. What then? I literally have no feelings concerning any statues, confederate flag, etc. I do see it on one hand though that the left is trying to do away with anything that offends anyone in their base. Do after all the statues, flags, and good grief even the Dukes of hazard! You know they'll find something.

They'll never stop.

Once the get anything with an obvious Confederate association removed, they'll come after more difficult targets.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and many other Founding Fathers were slaveholders. Abraham Lincoln had a very blase attitude towards slavery; he waged the Civil War to preserve the Union and not necessarily to abolish slavery. Woodrow Wilson was a virulent racist but is viewed as a progressive icon.

Do we remove anything that depicts them or remove their names from anything? Implode the Jefferson Memorial and Washington Monument? After all, they are celebrations of slaveholders who thought black people are subhuman.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

If you look at a lot of the monuments and when they were built, they depict ordinary soldiers and were constructed at a time when many civil war vets had begun to die. They are less of a memorial to "the cause" and more a memorial to those in the community who fought and died in battle.

The NAACP wants the AP Stewart bust at the courthouse here moved to the Chickamauga battlefield. Stewart was instrumental in getting the Chickamauga battlefield park established and was a commissioner of the park. If you ever go you will notice there are ZERO monuments to individual generals. They are all dedicated to units, which is by design.

 

[1972 Grad]

Many of them went to WP. REL was a WP grad, hell Lincoln offered him command of the Army prior to the war.

.....and if he had accepted Lincoln's offer, the war would have been over in less than a year. He kept the outmanned South in the game longer than they could have legitimately hoped. Robert E. Lee could not take up arms against his native Virginia. He was a believer in the sovereignty of states and their rights.

 

[InVOLuntary]

They'll never stop.

Once the get anything with an obvious Confederate association removed, they'll come after more difficult targets.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and many other Founding Fathers were slaveholders. Abraham Lincoln had a very blase attitude towards slavery; he waged the Civil War to preserve the Union and not necessarily to abolish slavery. Woodrow Wilson was a virulent racist but is viewed as a progressive icon.

Do we remove anything that depicts them or remove their names from anything? Implode the Jefferson Memorial and Washington Monument? After all, they are celebrations of slaveholders who thought black people are subhuman.

Oh, these morons smell blood in the water. They're truly lunatics.

 

[carlos86]

Then the statues should stay because most of the BEST southern Generals we also at one time the best US Officers.

All of which were traitors and oath breakers. Thanks for making my point on why traitors don't deserve statues.

 

[allvol123]

All of which were traitors and oath breakers. Thanks for making my point on why traitors don't deserve statues.

And this is not the United States of Carlos or the United States of Antifa, so your reasoning is irrelevant.

 

[FLVOL_79]

"at one time...." Yea, they were--but they chose to give up being U.S. officers and became Southern officers/generals who fought against America. That is kind of a big deal, partner.

And yet they are still viewed as American veterans..

 

[05_never_again]

All of which were traitors and oath breakers. Thanks for making my point on why traitors don't deserve statues.

What about Thomas Jefferson? He wasn't a traitor, but he was a big slave owner who thought black people were subhuman. Dismantle the Jefferson Memorial starting today?