Richard Dawkins Event Cancelled

[Septic]

I miss the God thread.
Even though I might have partly caused its termination

Right on man, was a good thread. As divisive as American politics are, that thread brought us all together in a beautiful harmony.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

"I read 4 of his books and it's drivel" is not a substantive criticism, no matter how many times you type it, ODR.

I wasn't the one who said that about drivel.

You should just stop.

I'm NOT getting into his work. I don't give a hoot about it any more. Some is good, some is bad.

It is his character and writing style that is the only subject I cared to talk about.

I supplied several references where his character and style are described and called into question. Again, his daughter blocked his access to his own grandchildren and that absolutely speaks to his character.

My whole issue is that a buffoon on the order of Trump himself, no matter his dicipline, does much to tarnish the reputation of Oxford. He's not worthy to hold a chair of distinction, even if they wanted the holder to be an atheist. The Oxford powers let themselves see the $$ from Simonyi. It's about Oxford sinking to a level beneath where some folk thought they'd not go.

It's about me loosing some respect for one of the oldest universities.

I made my case. YGHN.
I'm done.

 

[Septic]

I wasn't the one who said that about drivel.

You should just stop.

I'm NOT getting into his work. I don't give a hoot about it any more. Some is good, some is bad.

It is his character and writing style that is the only subject I cared to talk about.

I supplied several references where his character and style are described and called into question. Again, his daughter blocked his access to his own grandchildren and that absolutely speaks to his character.

My whole issue is that a buffoon on the order of Trump himself, no matter his dicipline, does much to tarnish the reputation of Oxford. He's not worthy to hold a chair of distinction, even if they wanted the holder to be an atheist. The Oxford powers let themselves see the $$ from Simonyi. It's about Oxford sinking to a level beneath where some folk thought they'd not go.

It's about me loosing some respect for one of the oldest universities.

I made my case. YGHN.
I'm done.

I knew we could hash this out like adults. I'm also glad we came to the agreement that Oxford is a better place with the brilliant Dr. Dawkins.

 

[apevol]

i hate you all

 

[rjd970]

Just out of curiosity, how would it be bigotry/arrogance to believe that you and I are both sinners, but I have a relationship with God (whom I believe in), and you don't have a relationship with God (whom you don't believe in)?

Or stated another way: How is it bigotry/arrogance to believe that we are both sinners, but I have accepted free salvation while you have not?

I guess it is no more arrogant than me believing you are living your life around a false ideal that I'm smart enough to see and your not. I don't mean that to be arrogant, but I'm sure it comes across that way.

Same with you. It could come across as arrogant or even insulting that you believe I'm a "sinner" and have chosen not to address it. It doesn't bother me because I don't accept the premise to begin with, but it could to others. Plus, with me, I couldn't care less.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Right on man, was a good thread. As divisive as American politics are, that thread brought us all together in a beautiful harmony.

It's not an easy conversation to have.
It's not easy to express and explain what you believe without others thinking you're telling them what to believe or them wanting to tell you you're wrong.
(Very much like every other thread here).

It's still a good idea to have those conversations to sharpen and refine your beliefs.

 

[Septic]

It's not an easy conversation to have.
It's not easy to express and explain what you believe without others thinking you're telling them what to believe or them wanting to tell you you're wrong.
(Very much like every other thread here).

It's still a good idea to have those conversations to sharpen and refine your beliefs.

100%. Have a like.

Whether you've ever realized it or not, (and while I completely disagree with your belief,) I have mad respect for people who use logic and reason to defend your chosen position.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I guess it is no more arrogant than me believing you are living your life around a false ideal that I'm smart enough to see and your not. I don't mean that to be arrogant, but I'm sure it comes across that way.

Same with you. It could come across as arrogant or even insulting that you believe I'm a "sinner" and have chosen not to address it. It doesn't bother me because I don't accept the premise to begin with, but it could to others. Plus, with me, I couldn't care less.

Part of my question hinged on the fact that I believe us both to be sinners. What do you perceive to be arrogant and/or bigoted about that, specifically? (I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm truly trying to understand your POV.)

 

[rjd970]

Part of my question hinged on the fact that I believe us both to be sinners. What do you perceive to be arrogant and/or bigoted about that, specifically? (I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm truly trying to understand your POV.)

Your throwing a negative connotation at me. The part that could be arrogant is not that you believe that about both of us. It's that you believe you've done something about it and I have chosen not to.

Like I said, I don't care and it doesn't bother me. But you can't see the potential arrogance in that?

 

[joevol33]

Your throwing a negative connotation at me. The part that could be arrogant is not that you believe that about both of us. It's that you believe you've done something about it and I have chosen not to.

Like I said, I don't care and it doesn't bother me. But you can't see the potential arrogance in that?

It's not that he believes he done anything about it in his own power, but he accepted what Jesus done about it. A common misconception about Christians is that non believers think that we think we are better, and for the overwhelming majority that isn't true. We know, and believe, that we are nothing apart from the grace of God. I sit at work every break with an atheist, and we're good friends. We'll talk about our beliefs sometimes, but he knows I don't think or act better than him. *unless we're fishing or talking football.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Your throwing a negative connotation at me. The part that could be arrogant is not that you believe that about both of us. It's that you believe you've done something about it and I have chosen not to.

Like I said, I don't care and it doesn't bother me. But you can't see the potential arrogance in that?

Actually, I believe there was nothing I could have done about it and that's why Jesus had to do something about it.

So, again... What is arrogant about believing that you and I are both sinners and completely helpless? I just accepted the help.

 

[rjd970]

So, again... What is arrogant about believing that you and I are both sinners and completely helpless?

And again from me...nothing arrogant about that. I just disagree with this premise.

But....

I just accepted the help.

...and I didn't. That's the rub. If you don't believe that can come across as arrogant, I don't know what to tell you. Especially from someone that disagrees with the premise to begin with.

And again, I'm not saying you are coming across as arrogant to me. I'm just saying that it is perfectly reasonable for some people to see it that way.

 

[Biopsyman]

What about Richard Roundtree

 

[Orange_Crush]

And again from me...nothing arrogant about that. I just disagree with this premise.

But....



...and I didn't. That's the rub. If you don't believe that can come across as arrogant, I don't know what to tell you. Especially from someone that disagrees with the premise to begin with.

And again, I'm not saying you are coming across as arrogant to me. I'm just saying that it is perfectly reasonable for some people to see it that way.

I'm not taking offense, and am not trying to cause any.

I just don't understand how the belief that we are both beggars, and one of us accepted the bread, is seen as arrogant. I'm sorry. It's just not. Admitting to being a beggar, helpless and in the care of another, is the opposite of arrogant; it is humility.

Thinking you a fellow beggar who has not eaten is the opposite of arrogance. It is an earnest desire for you to find the banquet.

And yes, you disagree with the premise. What does that have to do with whether I am arrogant? We are talking about beliefs.

So, instead of saying something like, "If you don't see that as... then I don't know what to tell you...", please try to tell me. Exactly what is arrogant about seeing us as fellow beggars, me believing I have found the feast, and me wanting desperately for you to find the feast as well."

Even if you don't believe as I do, please explain to me, in detail, exactly what is arrogant (or even bigoted, as you said) about me believing that.

What is perfectly reasonable about attributing humility as arrogance and good will as bigotry?

Blessings, my friend.

 

[rjd970]

I'm not taking offense, and am not trying to cause any.

I just don't understand how the belief that we are both beggars, and one of us accepted the bread, is seen as arrogant. I'm sorry. It's just not. Admitting to being a beggar, helpless and in the care of another, is the opposite of arrogant; it is humility.

Thinking you a fellow beggar who has not eaten is the opposite of arrogance. It is an earnest desire for you to find the banquet.

And yes, you disagree with the premise. What does that have to do with whether I am arrogant? We are talking about beliefs.

So, instead of saying something like, "If you don't see that as... then I don't know what to tell you...", please try to tell me. Exactly what is arrogant about seeing us as fellow beggars, me believing I have found the feast, and me wanting desperately for you to find the feast as well."

Even if you don't believe as I do, please explain to me, in detail, exactly what is arrogant (or even bigoted, as you said) about me believing that.

What is perfectly reasonable about attributing humility as arrogance and good will as bigotry?

Blessings, my friend.

OK. You win. Not a single believer has a bit of arrogance. Its all, across the board, just humility.


:hi:

 

[PKT_VOL]

...and I didn't. That's the rub. If you don't believe that can come across as arrogant, I don't know what to tell you. Especially from someone that disagrees with the premise to begin with.

And again, I'm not saying you are coming across as arrogant to me. I'm just saying that it is perfectly reasonable for some people to see it that way.

I'm not sure such an argument works, at least not as strongly, without justification or the lack thereof attached to it, and the justified consequences thereafter.

 

[PKT_VOL]

I'm not taking offense, and am not trying to cause any.

I just don't understand how the belief that we are both beggars, and one of us accepted the bread, is seen as arrogant. I'm sorry. It's just not. Admitting to being a beggar, helpless and in the care of another, is the opposite of arrogant; it is humility.

Thinking you a fellow beggar who has not eaten is the opposite of arrogance. It is an earnest desire for you to find the banquet.

Aside from the rejection of the idea that one is a beggar (the underlying premise), your analogy speaks more to sanctification verse justification. I could be wrong, but I doubt RJD would have a problem sanctification (in the general sense).

 

[Orange_Crush]

Aside from the rejection of the idea that one is a beggar (the underlying premise), your analogy speaks more to sanctification verse justification. I could be wrong, but I doubt RJD would have a problem sanctification (in the general sense).

I'm speaking specifically to the forgiveness of sins.The analogy was used for conversation. The point is that we are both sinners. Neither one of us could do anything about it. One accepted the free, twin gifts of grace and mercy (which, again, neither of us earned), and one of us didn't.

I'm merely asking, specifically, what makes that belief arrogant and bigoted. They were strong accusations, so I wanted to know what basis was making them.

 

[Orange_Crush]

OK. You win. Not a single believer has a bit of arrogance. Its all, across the board, just humility.


:hi:

That wasn't what you said. You didn't say that every conceivable belief that any conceivable, professing Christian has believed was being judged. You pointed to specific beliefs (specifically simply that I am saved) and said that they were or could be construed as arrogant and bigoted.

You furthered the idea and doubled down as we discussed. So, we weren't weighing any thought any Christian has ever had. It was specifically the idea that I am saved and you are not.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I'm not sure such an argument works, at least not as strongly, without justification or the lack thereof attached to it, and the justified consequences thereafter.

We are merely speaking to beliefs. If I believe those things, what makes me arrogant and bigoted? I don't think proof is needed to ask such questions.

 

[rjd970]

We are merely speaking to beliefs. If I believe those things, what makes me arrogant and bigoted? I don't think proof is needed to ask such questions.

You're going to have to go back and tell me where I argued bigotry, to be honest. I'm focused on the arrogance part. I'm looking back through the thread and the only statement I made in this entire thread was directed at VBH's comment about non-believers being bigoted.

If you don't believe that there could be the sense of arrogance ascribing a label of "sinner" to a non-believer and then further believe they have chosen not to accept the free gift to address it, then I simply don't know what to say. You can believe what you want about anyone, of course.

I certainly don't care that you believe in a made up solution to a made up problem by a made up God I don't believe. Instead of "arrogance" or "humility", I'm going to self-label that "ambivalence". However, I will acknowledge it may seem arrogant.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I agree, but do you think the reverse is true as well? Is it bigotry when a religious person thinks they are better than someone (or saved, or enlightened, or whatever) because they believe something said person doesn't? The arrogance absolutely cuts both ways.

I think it was Winston Churchill who said everybody is entitled to their own opinions, they are not entitled to their own facts. Discussion of the facts is what is generally missing or denied in the name of political correctness. The problem is discussion of facts and points often gets conflated with bigotry/racism because one party gets hurt feelings. Both sides know once they get back in a corner on facts, just say "bigot" or "I'm offended" and the conversation has to end.

You're going to have to go back and tell me where I argued bigotry, to be honest. I'm focused on the arrogance part. I'm looking back through the thread and the only statement I made in this entire thread was directed at VBH's comment about non-believers being bigoted.

If you don't believe that there could be the sense of arrogance ascribing a label of "sinner" to a non-believer and then further believe they have chosen not to accept the free gift to address it, then I simply don't know what to say. You can believe what you want about anyone, of course.

I certainly don't care that you believe in a made up solution to a made up problem by a made up God I don't believe. Instead of "arrogance" or "humility", I'm going to self-label that "ambivalence". However, I will acknowledge it may seem arrogant.

That's what I was responding to. The bigotry/arrogance cutting both ways because someone believes they are saved.

And no. I do not see any arrogance whatsoever in saying that you and I are both sinners who have offended God and need His forgiveness, and I simply decided to accept that forgiveness, which I could never earn.

I'll need you to explain why it comes across as arrogant. Specifically. You talk as though it should be self-evident to me, so there shouldn't be too much problem with the explanation.

 

[Orange_Crush]

rjd... I'll drop it. I sincerely hope you have a great day, my friend.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

What is "sin"?

 

[Orangeslice13]

What is "sin"?

Free will