Coach Butch Jones Appreciation thread

[05_never_again]

Well, that's pure supposition, 05. I don't think the Tennessee job was tarnished at all, at that point. The job was still very attractive, it's just the TIMING that was off. With a better AD, the timing issue could've been played better to our advantage.

We were never 'destined' to get Dooley in late 2009. Tennessee could have gotten a far better coach than Dooley if we'd had an AD worthy of the title.

Pure supposition? It was the hard reality at the time. Why does any job get tarnished? How any job is perceived is going to be dictated by the facts at the time the job is available, by definition.

It might be difficult to accept as a Tennessee fan, you want to think your school is always hot s**t and nobody in their right mind would turn down a chance to coach there, but the job was just simply not highly coveted at the time. That's a fact borne out by the simple fact that Derek Dooley got the job.

Remember, there were guys who we now know are average/slightly above average head coaches (Muschamp, Sumlin) who turned the Tennessee job after Fulmer was fired. So how do you think college coaches perceived the Tennessee job after Kiffin departed abruptly?

Mike Hamilton was an idiot, but do you think he would have still hired Derek Dooley if, say, Kevin Sumlin said he wanted the job? According to the reporting at the time, it was down to Dooley and Kippy Brown.

The one reasonable argument that I can see being made is that Hamilton should have let Kippy coach the 2010 season on an interim basis so he could conduct a normal coaching search at the end of that season. Even still, if the past had played out that way, I think we're still looking at getting an average at best coach for what would have been the 2011 season. But perhaps a guy better than Dooley.

 

[BeecherVol]

05 is right on this one, and around 8 candidate iirc said no thank you either to an offer or simply while guaging interest.

Dooley was bad. Awful. But he was just the "next" bad, awful thing that happened during that time period.

That "timing" word he used was more important than hes giving it credit for.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

05 is right on this one, and around 8 candidate iirc said no thank you either to an offer or simply while guaging interest.

Dooley was bad. Awful. But he was just the "next" bad, awful thing that happened during that time period.

Link? I frankly don't believe that.

Here's why: 3 days.

Kiffin surprised everyone (including the AD) on the 12th of January announcing his departure for USCw.

Hamilton announced Dooley as the new coach on the 15th of January.

You show me anything that says 8 different coaches were approached about the Tennessee job and turned it down in that 3-day period. Not what people said they woulda mighta coulda done, 8 months or 5 years later...show that eight coaches (or heck, even three or four) were offered (or just gauged for interest) in that 3 day period and said no.

 

[BeecherVol]

According to the reporting at the time, it was down to Dooley and Kippy Brown.

The one reasonable argument that I can see being made is that Hamilton should have let Kippy coach the 2010 season on an interim basis so he could conduct a normal coaching search at the end of that season. Even still, if the past had played out that way, I think we're still looking at getting an average at best coach for what would have been the 2011 season. But perhaps a guy better than Dooley.

And we have winner!

What is he taking home Johnny?

 

[VFL-82-JP]

The one reasonable argument that I can see being made is that Hamilton should have let Kippy coach the 2010 season on an interim basis so he could conduct a normal coaching search at the end of that season. Even still, if the past had played out that way, I think we're still looking at getting an average at best coach for what would have been the 2011 season. But perhaps a guy better than Dooley.

Don't even have to hire him for the coming season. Just name him interim coach, then take your time to make a good hire. Could happen before the spring ends. The interim just has you get you through signing day and spring camp without the wheels falling off.

We could've recovered from Kiffin with a minimum of disruption, and had a FAR better program in '10, '11, and '12 than we did. That's all on Dooley. Kiffin kicked off our Dark Ages, but Dooley sang most of the music.

 

[BeecherVol]

Link? I frankly don't believe that.

Here's why: 3 days.

Kiffin surprised everyone (including the AD) on the 12th of January announcing his departure for USCw.

Hamilton announced Dooley as the new coach on the 15th of January.

You show me anything that says 8 different coaches were approached about the Tennessee job and turned it down in that 3-day period. Not what people said they woulda mighta coulda done, 8 months or 5 years later...show that eight coaches (or heck, even three or four) were offered (or just gauged for interest) in that 3 day period and said no.

If you think he went straight to guy that was losing at La Tech after Kiffin left I'm not sure what else can be said.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

If you think he went straight to guy that was losing at La Tech after Kiffin left I'm not sure what else can be said.

So prove it. If you think he didn't.

I mean, hell, we're talking about Hamilton here. Show me the 8 guys who said no.

 

[jakez4ut]

So prove it. If you think he didn't.

I mean, hell, we're talking about Hamilton here. Show me the 8 guys who said no.

Cut
Muschsmp
Gruden
Gundy
Wittingham
Peterson


Off the top of my head these are coaches that were asked/offered that I can remember. IIRC, LWS had several posts about it some time back with more details.

There is no link cause of the timing... Most all the names associated with that search came out after the fact.

But Dooley wasn't the 1 st on the list. And his hiring was the result of two things once kiffin left... Booster control, and nobody else wanted it, that we wanted to have it.

 

[05_never_again]

So prove it. If you think he didn't.

I mean, hell, we're talking about Hamilton here. Show me the 8 guys who said no.

It was all media reports from "sources," but here is a list of names mentioned, all of whom presumably said no:

Will Muschamp (also said no after Fulmer)
David Cutcliffe
Skip Holtz
Gary Patterson (he "denied meeting with UT officials," which can still mean he was offered the job through an agent and said no)

http://newsok.com/article/3431868

I cannot find articles from reputable sources confirming this, but I distinctly remember hearing Troy Calhoun and Kirby Smart's names being mentioned as though Tennessee had contacted them. Kyle Whittingham was also talked about a lot, but I'm not sure if Tennessee people ever contacted him or his agent.

So...it is fair to conclude that lots of people were contacted and said no.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Cut
Muschsmp
Gruden
Gundy
Wittingham
Peterson


Off the top of my head these are coaches that were asked/offered that I can remember. IIRC, LWS had several posts about it some time back with more details.

There is no link cause of the timing... Most all the names associated with that search came out after the fact.

But Dooley wasn't the 1 st on the list. And his hiring was the result of two things once kiffin left... Booster control, and nobody else wanted it, that we wanted to have it.

I think that's all just fan base rumor, Jake. I would believe it if an article came out later, quoting people by name and describing how it played out. But if we're going by "a guy on VolNation said so," well, how much of what you read on VolNation to YOU believe?


p.s. And this is no attack on LWS. I like the fella. But I've seen him be wrong as much as right here.

 

[jakez4ut]

Try this no lists but it portrays the general theme were talking about
http://www.espn.com/college-football/news/story?id=4831420

"So as different names kept floating around out there, and others either turned down the Vols' overtures or simply withdrew their names from consideration, my phone rang the day everything was heating up with current Duke coach and former Tennessee offensive coordinator David Cutcliffe."

"Tennessee officials flew out to Salt Lake City on Thursday night to meet with Utah's Kyle Whittingham. The Salt Lake Tribune reported that Whittingham turned down the Tennessee job Friday morning.

The Vols also talked to Temple's Al Golden and Houston's Kevin Sumlin."

 

[BeecherVol]

Cut
Muschsmp
Gruden
Gundy
Wittingham
Peterson


Off the top of my head these are coaches that were asked/offered that I can remember. IIRC, LWS had several posts about it some time back with more details.

There is no link cause of the timing... Most all the names associated with that search came out after the fact.

But Dooley wasn't the 1 st on the list. And his hiring was the result of two things once kiffin left... Booster control, and nobody else wanted it, that we wanted to have it.

I'm on my cell but I'm pretty sure someone reported that Muschamp suggested Dooley after he turned it down.

 

[BeecherVol]

82 you seem like a pretty good dude and a decent poster even tho we disagree more oft than not.
But you 've gone off the deep end in this thread more than once.

 

[05_never_again]

I think that's all just fan base rumor, Jake. I would believe it if an article came out later, quoting people by name and describing how it played out. But if we're going by "a guy on VolNation said so," well, how much of what you read on VolNation to YOU believe?


p.s. And this is no attack on LWS. I like the fella. But I've seen him be wrong as much as right here.

Dude, no individual coach is going to confirm he met with a particular school and told them no. It's just bad form. They make statements like they are "happy where they are" and move on. If multiple media outlets have multiple sources telling them schools are talking with certain coaches, and Derek Dooley is the one who ends up getting picked, it doesn't take a genius to conclude that those other guys they were talking to turned them down.

Perhaps not every individual name who got thrown around was actually approached or was actually offered the job, but it is a reasonable assumption to make.

The point is that a lot of people were contacted before Dooley and they all said no.

You need to listen to the interview Clay Travis did with Dooley. It doesn't really contain anything surprising to a Tennessee fan, but the little details he talks about during Tennessee's pursuit of him are interesting. Dooley essentially says in the interview that he was the only person Tennessee talked to that wanted the job.

 

[jakez4ut]

Another

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-fo...-fumbling-coaching-search-will-cost-tennessee

"I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a coaching search so bumbled, so utterly void of clear, concise goals, as what we had at Tennessee. And now there’s this: For the second time in two years, Hamilton—Tennessee’s beleaguered athletic director—has hired a coach with a losing record for one of the top 10 programs in all of college football.

The hiring of Derek Dooley from Louisiana Tech fits right in with the rest of this wacky week. In the last three days alone, Hamilton was turned down by a defensive coordinator, the coaches at Air Force and Duke, coaches at two other non-BCS schools (Utah, TCU), and an NFL color analyst (Jon Gruden)."

"And don’t blame Lane Kiffin; he’s just another coach who followed his dream and left a wake of destruction. Happens all the time.

The blame here falls squarely on Hamilton for two reasons:

• He had an $800,000 buyout in Kiffin’s contract. If you’re going to invest $2 million a year in a coach—and millions more in his high-priced coaching staff—you better have some security. If Kiffin had a $4 million buyout, maybe USC would’ve thought twice about extending an offer."

 

[BeecherVol]

I know for a fact Cut was approached and he wasn't the first.

 

[BeecherVol]

Hamilton catches a lot of $h!+ for the way Kiffin played out. But had anyone got wind his first call was to La Tech for Dooley after the fact, he should have been fired before the plane left.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Look, I just realized: to a large extent, we're all just pole vaulting over mouse poop here.

None of us think much of Dooley. None of us think much of Kiffin. We all blame both of them for hurting our program. We all think of both of them as anathema to where we should've gone.

Everything else, all we're doing here, is arguing over degrees of responsibility between them. It's kind of pointless.

Yes, I've come to my senses, heh.

So unless you guys disagree with anything I just said, I think I'm done here. Arguing 3-on-1 is hella fun, but it's not worth the lack of clarity we're gaining from all the effort.

 

[BeecherVol]

Look, I just realized: to a large extent, we're all just pole vaulting over mouse poop here.

None of us think much of Dooley. None of us think much of Kiffin. We all blame both of them for hurting our program. We all think of both of them as anathema to where we should've gone.

Everything else, all we're doing here, is arguing over degrees of responsibility between them. It's kind of pointless.

Yes, I've come to my senses, heh.

So unless you guys disagree with anything I just said, I think I'm done here. Arguing 3-on-1 is hella fun, but it's not worth the lack of clarity we're gaining from all the effort.

Add Hamilton and a few others and we can call it a day.

 

[05_never_again]

I think we can all agree, regardless of how you feel about Kiffin or Dooley and who is more at fault, that the individual most responsible for the problem was Mike Hamilton.

 

[jakez4ut]

Look, I just realized: to a large extent, we're all just pole vaulting over mouse poop here.

None of us think much of Dooley. None of us think much of Kiffin. We all blame both of them for hurting our program. We all think of both of them as anathema to where we should've gone.

Everything else, all we're doing here, is arguing over degrees of responsibility between them. It's kind of pointless.

Yes, I've come to my senses, heh.

So unless you guys disagree with anything I just said, I think I'm done here. Arguing 3-on-1 is hella fun, but it's not worth the lack of clarity we're gaining from all the effort.

That's fine and I agree on merit, but in fairness you blatantly told 05 he was just plain wrong, just on your opinion or on how you remember it... You asked for links, you have them.

Its now lack of clarity? On who's part?

I like going back and forth with you JP... But this reeks of "I'm getting my ball and going home"...

 

[jakez4ut]

I think we can all agree, regardless of how you feel about Kiffin or Dooley and who is more at fault, that the individual most responsible for the problem was Mike Hamilton.

Yep

 

[VFL-82-JP]

That's fine and I agree on merit, but in fairness you blatantly told 05 he was just plain wrong, just on your opinion or on how you remember it... You asked for links, you have them.

Its now lack of clarity? On who's part?

I like going back and forth with you JP... But this reeks of "I'm getting my ball and going home"...

When i came to my senses and wrote that post, I hadn't seen the 5-gun salvo you all hit me with together.

I'm not taking my ball and going home, I'm still around. It's just a lot of work arguing with 3 different people at the same time, so I was getting tired. And then I stopped and took stock of the fact that we were violently disagreeing about who to hate more. When we all hate all of them anyway.

It just didn't seem to make any sense to me to keep going, once I stepped back and saw what the hell we were doing.


p.s. Of course I told 05 he was wrong. Way down in the weeds, where we were all running around, I still believe he was wrong. I also absolutely do not believe it's worth continuing to pole vault over those particular mouse droppings. What, you trying to keep the fight going, Jake?

 

[BeecherVol]

You brought some of that on yourself there my friend.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

You brought some of that on yourself there my friend.

No, I just disagreed with something I saw that was wrong. That I'm still convinced was wrong. Not this side alley about how many coaches were called in a 3 day period, but the basic premise about who's more to blame.

But I thought we were letting this rest. Are we not?