Kiffin on if Butch's program is in the right direction

#176
#176
Iam4utalways said:
Seems his game plan is to have long grinding drives that wear down the opposing defenses while putting points on the board. I'm comfortable saying if CBJ could win games without throwing the ball he would. But he realizes he can't so he puts in a few WR screens and quick throws on the edge to loosen up the defense. All along he is wanting to hand it to the RB and march down the field 4 yards at a time.
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The problem is when you make the tempo go faster, you become more predictable because it's hard to run a big variety of plays without slowing down. This is also why our drives are scripted more often than they are not. Jones and his OCs were often in trouble when the script went bad.

Every style of play has some kind of issue like this. Hence why championships are won by a variety of different tendencies.

The question is that if Jones can offset these strategic shortfalls. The past two years have indicated that he can't. If you notice, that's what all of our loses have in common recently. Our offense was stopped because defenses figured out the plays we were calling.
 
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#177
#177
Burger said:
The problem is when you make the tempo go faster, you become more predictable because it's hard to run a big variety of plays without slowing down. This is also why our drives are scripted more often than they are not. Jones and his OCs were often in trouble when the script went bad.

Every style of play has some kind of issue like this. Hence why championships are won by a variety of different tendencies.

The question is that if Jones can offset these strategic shortfalls. The past two years have indicated that he can't. If you notice, that's what all of our loses have in common recently. Our offense was stopped because defenses figured out the plays we were calling.
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The way I understand the script:

Run play A1 on 1st down then play A2 on 2nd down, then depending on the distance of 3rd and the importance of the drive a 3rd down play is picked from the chart. If 1st or 2nd down nets the1st down then they go to series "B" and run play B1 on first down and B2 on 2nd down.

The sense of urgency isn't the same in the 1st qtr of a scoreless game so the 3rd down calls are typically give to the RB or a short pass.

Depending on the score a more aggressive call could be made on 3rd down based on the importantance of the conversion.
 
#178
#178
Iam4utalways said:
The way I understand the script:

Run play A1 on 1st down then play A2 on 2nd down, then depending on the distance of 3rd and the importance of the drive a 3rd down play is picked from the chart. If 1st or 2nd down nets the1st down then they go to series "B" and run play B1 on first down and B2 on 2nd down.

The sense of urgency isn't the same in the 1st qtr of a scoreless game so the 3rd down calls are typically give to the RB or a short pass.

Depending on the score a more aggressive call could be made on 3rd down based on the importantance of the conversion.
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The problem is if A1 and A2 get stopped, the offense has to slow down for a third down. Defense knocked the Offense off script in that senario. If the script is working, you just keep going down the script no matter how quickly you convert.
 
#179
#179
Burger said:
I'll add this also. Our offense since Jones arrived is insanely predictable. You can tell where the ball is going by how the back is positioned. We will see how good of a chess player Larry Scott is but when Debord and Bajakian were off script our offense tended to falter. It faltered when defenses caught on.

Debord was actually great at setting up defenses to trick them.
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Was that not freaking crazy???

Everybody knew if it was going to be a handoff to Hurd or a pass!

That first year drove me nuts!
 
#180
#180
Burger said:
The problem is if A1 and A2 get stopped, the offense has to slow down for a third down. Defense knocked the Offense off script in that senario. If the script is working, you just keep going down the script no matter how quickly you convert.
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Another problem is if A1 is a bust, A2 should be adjusted to a more aggressive play so you don't end up in bunch of 3rd and longs. But it seems we stay on script as long as we can even at the expense of getting "behind the chains" and way behind on the score board.
 
#181
#181
Iam4utalways said:
Another problem is if A1 is a bust, A2 should be adjusted to a more aggressive play so you don't end up in bunch of 3rd and longs. But it seems we stay on script as long as we can even at the expense of getting "behind the chains" and way behind on the score board.
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Because if you adjust it, you slow down the offense. Also, most decent DCs will know you're adjusting when your behind the chains.
 
#182
#182
IknoxvolsI said:
Was that not freaking crazy???

Everybody knew if it was going to be a handoff to Hurd or a pass!

That first year drove me nuts!
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Rod Gilmore essentially predicted our offense during the Iowa game. You can still tell what the offense is doing.
 
#183
#183
Burger said:
Because if you adjust it, you slow down the offense. Also, most decent DCs will know you're adjusting when your behind the chains.
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The key is the no huddle aspect of the offense, the hurry up is not necessary, but to no huddle and don't sub keeps the same defense on the field.

To run the same play on 2nd down no matter the outcome of 1st down is a flawed game plan. 2nd and long should get a different call than 2nd and short.

2nd and 1 is my favorite down and distance to throw deep.
 
#184
#184
Burger said:
Rod Gilmore essentially predicted our offense during the Iowa game. You can still tell what the offense is doing.
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Us fans saw it during the season, even those without football experience.

Question I have always had, why did he place Hurd nest to Dobbs each time it was a handoff and behind him when it was a pass? Why not swap it up atleast some?
 
#185
#185
Iam4utalways said:
The key is the no huddle aspect of the offense, the hurry up is not necessary, but to no huddle and don't sub keeps the same defense on the field.

To run the same play on 2nd down no matter the outcome of 1st down is a flawed game plan. 2nd and long should get a different call than 2nd and short.

2nd and 1 is my favorite down and distance to throw deep.
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The issue with that is you also have the same set on the field. The HUNH is based on being able to run a set group of plays very well. Our playbook during a given game is not deep at all.

The point of the HUNH is to ultimately keep the defense on it's heels. Also, it's to not give the defense enough time to fully set.
 
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#186
#186
Burger said:
The issue with that is you also have the same set on the field. The HUNH is based on being able to run a set group of plays very well. Our playbook during a given game is not deep at all.

The point of the HUNH is to ultimately keep the defense on it's heels. Also, it's to not give the defense enough time to fully set.
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Our playbook isn't the issue, the issue is how aggressive are we when the run pass option is called. When it's called and our QB hands it to the RB when the defense is stacked to stop that aspect of the play, that's a bad read.

I want a QB that will make the read and see that he should keep it and throw it to the wideout that running the slant or post that will be open since both safeties are involved in run support.

Our offense puts our Oline at a disadvantage when we run against the teeth of the defense. Our Oline can't really fire off the ball and block it like a run since it could/should end up as a pass play. I wonder how many times our line was expecting a pass based off how the defense was lined up but we ended up giving it to the RB to get stuffed for no gain(should have been for a 3 yard loss but Hurd would break two tackles in the backfield).

The QB has to get us out of bad plays, which means our coaching staff has to give our QB the authority to make the read and then execute the play that has the best chance at success.

Hurd and Kamara would often make something off the wrong read so JD would keep feeding them the ball, when the right read would be to throw it to any one of our WRs that were running wide open down the field.

Maybe I don't have a grasp of how RPO works, but by calling it Run Pass Option, it leads me to believe that passing the ball is an option.

Run the vs a pass defense, pass the ball against a pass defense.

I remember Andy Kelly talking about the screen against Notre Dame that put us ahead. He was told if they blitz don't check out of it because that's what we want. With as much experience that AK had at the time he was still reminded that a screen is designed to be ran vs the blitz. They blitzed, we executed the play and won the game(We did have to block a 2nd FG attempt as time expired).
 
#187
#187
Iam4utalways said:
Our playbook isn't the issue, the issue is how aggressive are we when the run pass option is called. When it's called and our QB hands it to the RB when the defense is stacked to stop that aspect of the play, that's a bad read.

I want a QB that will make the read and see that he should keep it and throw it to the wideout that running the slant or post that will be open since both safeties are involved in run support.

Our offense puts our Oline at a disadvantage when we run against the teeth of the defense. Our Oline can't really fire off the ball and block it like a run since it could/should end up as a pass play. I wonder how many times our line was expecting a pass based off how the defense was lined up but we ended up giving it to the RB to get stuffed for no gain(should have been for a 3 yard loss but Hurd would break two tackles in the backfield).

The QB has to get us out of bad plays, which means our coaching staff has to give our QB the authority to make the read and then execute the play that has the best chance at success.

Hurd and Kamara would often make something off the wrong read so JD would keep feeding them the ball, when the right read would be to throw it to any one of our WRs that were running wide open down the field.

Maybe I don't have a grasp of how RPO works, but by calling it Run Pass Option, it leads me to believe that passing the ball is an option.

Run the vs a pass defense, pass the ball against a pass defense.

I remember Andy Kelly talking about the screen against Notre Dame that put us ahead. He was told if they blitz don't check out of it because that's what we want. With as much experience that AK had at the time he was still reminded that a screen is designed to be ran vs the blitz. They blitzed, we executed the play and won the game(We did have to block a 2nd FG attempt as time expired).
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1) The QB had two plays to run at the LOS, a primary and an audible. Dobbs hardly ever went to the audible, so he would often not read the defense like he is suppose to. Dobbs, for being as smart as he is, couldn't read a defense

2) The paragraph about the Oline is very correct, and it was Kerbyson who said it.

3) The RPO goes back to the inability of reading defenses. Dobbs was really bad at it.
 
#188
#188
Burger said:
1)

2) The paragraph about the Oline is very correct, and it was Kerbyson who said it.
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I remember that very well because I even started a thread when he said it. People basically played it off as not realistic.
I rewatched the 2015 games and he was very much correct. The offensive line seemed to be in some kind of transitional half run/pass protection.

Said Dobbs had SOME true option plays. As in when the ol left the huddle, they had no idea if it was a pass or a run.
I'm writing that off as the past though, I don't think we will see as much control given to anyone other than Dobbs.
 
#189
#189
chargervol said:
I remember that very well because I even started a thread when he said it. People basically played it off as not realistic.
I rewatched the 2015 games and he was very much correct. The offensive line seemed to be in some kind of transitional half run/pass protection.

Said Dobbs had SOME true option plays. As in when the ol left the huddle, they had no idea if it was a pass or a run.
I'm writing that off as the past though, I don't think we will see as much control given to anyone other than Dobbs.
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Dormady might be if he proves his mental mettle.
 
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#194
#194
tm3 said:
Not only was Kiffin undefeated against Vandy, he came closer to beating Bama in 2009 than Jones came to beating Vandy in 2016.
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Kiffin never beat Florida, in fact he lost by the same amount of points that Butch won by. Butch also beat VT by almost as many as Kiffin lost to them by.

Know what that means? Not a damn thang.
 
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#195
#195
Only at Alabama does an OC get fired after going undefeated through the regular season, the conference championship and a major bowl game. Guess they lost the only game that mattered to Saban.
 
#199
#199
#200
#200
tm3 said:
Not only was Kiffin undefeated against Vandy, he came closer to beating Bama in 2009 than Jones came to beating Vandy in 2016.
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Kiffin beat Vandy with two sub 300 lb walk ons in the O line and a flaky QB that even Cutcliffe could not develop.

Jones could not beat Vandy with an O line that he had spent 4 years recruiting and developing, and a senior QB specifically picked and groomed to fit his system.
 
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