The tax reform thread

#226
#226
Discussing anything with Luther is fruitless..... he's a freakin' commie! He'll never agree with anything based on capitalism..... or reality for that matter.
 
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#227
#227
kiddiedoc said:
No, the problem is that there would be a public outcry from the Left if his actual tax paid was low (which I am quite certain it has been). However, most savvy investors (both Republican and Democrat) are well-schooled in the ways of avoiding high tax rates with deductions, write-offs, exemptions, etc. Hell, we all do it, just on a smaller scale.
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# Warren Buffett
 
#228
#228
kiddiedoc said:
No, the problem is that there would be a public outcry from the Left if his actual tax paid was low (which I am quite certain it has been). However, most savvy investors (both Republican and Democrat) are well-schooled in the ways of avoiding high tax rates with deductions, write-offs, exemptions, etc. Hell, we all do it, just on a smaller scale.
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I think you are absolutely correct.

But The Donald would be embarrassed if people found out that he paid so little, or such a low rate, compared to working people. He cannot stand criticism.

And of course now he has doubled down on it, such that if they were ever released and showed he paid little to nothing in some years when he made hundreds of millions of dollars, he knows that the backlash, much of it coming from his own base, would be a tidal wave and carry he and the GOP right out with the die.
 
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#229
#229
lawgator1 said:
I think you are absolutely correct.

But The Donald would be embarrassed if people found out that he paid so little, or such a low rate, compared to working people. He cannot stand criticism.

And of course now he has doubled down on it, such that if they were ever released and showed he paid little to nothing in some years when he made hundreds of millions of dollars, he knows that the backlash, much of it coming from his own base, would be a tidal wave and carry he and the GOP right out with the die.
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so it's not about being indebted to foreign nations - it's your desire to see him embarrassed and some pipe dream it would tank the GOP. As expected.
 
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#230
#230
volinbham said:
so it's not about being indebted to foreign nations - it's your desire to see him embarrassed and some pipe dream it would tank the GOP. As expected.
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Its both, frankly.

Here's the thing. Trumps says he is for draining the swamp in the form of reducing the power of monied interests in securing favorable tax treatment. Trump says he is for fairness in the way the working man is treated by the government, particularly on taxes. And, Trump says he hates the way that the rich have used their influence to reduce their taxes.

But then in practice Trump does everything he says is wrong. His excuse? Because he could.

I just think that in the end, at some point, people are going to figure out that he is not special, and that he lies like the rest of the politicians to make, and keep, a buck. His tax returns, if they show what we all expect, would be Exhibit 1 in the case against him moving forward.
 
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#231
#231
lawgator1 said:
Its both, frankly.

Here's the thing. Trumps says he is for draining the swamp in the form of reducing the power of monied interests in securing favorable tax treatment. Trump says he is for fairness in the way the working man is treated by the government, particularly on taxes. And, Trump says he hates the way that the rich have used their influence to reduce their taxes.

But then in practice Trump does everything he says is wrong. His excuse? Because he could.

I just think that in the end, at some point, people are going to figure out that he is not special, and that he lies like the rest of the politicians to make, and keep, a buck. His tax returns, if they show what we all expect, would be Exhibit 1 in the case against him moving forward.
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so the Trump tax returns are nothing more than a "gotcha" moment and have absolutely nothing to do with reforming tax laws for US citizens.
 
#232
#232
lawgator1 said:
Its both, frankly.

Here's the thing. Trumps says he is for draining the swamp in the form of reducing the power of monied interests in securing favorable tax treatment. Trump says he is for fairness in the way the working man is treated by the government, particularly on taxes. And, Trump says he hates the way that the rich have used their influence to reduce their taxes.

But then in practice Trump does everything he says is wrong. His excuse? Because he could.

I just think that in the end, at some point, people are going to figure out that he is not special, and that he lies like the rest of the politicians to make, and keep, a buck. His tax returns, if they show what we all expect, would be Exhibit 1 in the case against him moving forward.
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Because he used legal means to pay the least amount of taxes he could? Have you done a thorough analysis of Obamas returns to see if he left any deductions on the table?

A person can genuinely hate the tax code and the way it penalizes the middle class while also taking every legal deduction possible without being a hypocrite.
 
#233
#233
theFallGuy said:
so the Trump tax returns are nothing more than a "gotcha" moment and have absolutely nothing to do with reforming tax laws for US citizens.
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They may very well have everything to do with reforming tax laws. If the public was to see that someone making 50 million paid less as a % than someone who made 50,000, changing the tax laws to benefit the wealthiest most would become more difficult, and that is Trump's agenda.
 
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#234
#234
hog88 said:
Because he used legal means to pay the least amount of taxes he could? Have you done a thorough analysis of Obamas returns to see if he left any deductions on the table?

A person can genuinely hate the tax code and the way it penalizes the middle class while also taking every legal deduction possible without being a hypocrite.
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Yes. They hypocrites are the ones who want to increase taxes but look for ways to avoid taxes themselves.
 
#235
#235
luthervol said:
They may very well have everything to do with reforming tax laws. If the public was to see that someone making 50 million paid less as a % than someone who made 50,000, changing the tax laws to benefit the wealthiest most would become more difficult, and that is Trump's agenda.
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Is that more a function of having taking advantage of accounting opportunities based on assets and multiple sources of income vs a single W2.
 
#236
#236
luthervol said:
They may very well have everything to do with reforming tax laws. If the public was to see that someone making 50 million paid less as a % than someone who made 50,000, changing the tax laws to benefit the wealthiest most would become more difficult, and that is Trump's agenda.
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Seeing this in one person will do this? They saw it with Warren Buffet - guess what, the public still wants tax reform.

Also if you look at the proposal (crazy I know) you'll see that it is focused on reducing the number of deductions/loopholes.

Opting out of the discussion entirely because 1 guy won't release his tax returns is a tantrum or a ploy to not be on the record with what you support/don't support.
 
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#237
#237
No current guarantee from Treasury Sec. or the tax plan that the middle class will not end up paying more overall.

Republicans are currently tottering on a very dangerous point in time of their party history. If the above ends up coming to fruition, and if the Russia scandal bears out, Republicans may well never recover again.
 
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#240
#240
luthervol said:
They may very well have everything to do with reforming tax laws. If the public was to see that someone making 50 million paid less as a % than someone who made 50,000, changing the tax laws to benefit the wealthiest most would become more difficult, and that is Trump's agenda.
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The proposal cuts taxes at every level.
Yes it is possible to pay less in taxes if you are living off of dividends from investments and not paying income tax.
 
#241
#241
theFallGuy said:
so the Trump tax returns are nothing more than a "gotcha" moment and have absolutely nothing to do with reforming tax laws for US citizens.
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It is more about the optics of Trump continuing to resist releasing the returns, and less about the policy implications of his failure to do so, yes. But the two are related, and the latter serves as a very good reminder to the American people that "something is up" with the former.

Dems should remind people of Trump's promises and repeated failures to live up to them every damn chance they get.


hog88 said:
Because he used legal means to pay the least amount of taxes he could? Have you done a thorough analysis of Obamas returns to see if he left any deductions on the table?

A person can genuinely hate the tax code and the way it penalizes the middle class while also taking every legal deduction possible without being a hypocrite.
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Not if you run on the platform that you are going to help the middle class, but then we see emerge from the proposal that it may have the opposite effect. And that it may save Trump more tax money. And all that coming after Trump promised many, many times, to release his returns, and now refuses to do so.


volprof said:
No current guarantee from Treasury Sec. or the tax plan that the middle class will not end up paying more overall.

Republicans are currently tottering on a very dangerous point in time of their party history. If the above ends up coming to fruition, and if the Russia scandal bears out, Republicans may well never recover again.
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This could well be the tipping point on GOP Congressional support of Trump. Let's face it, as a group, they are not big fans of his. And if his tax proposal will add $5 trillion to the debt, and just be a give away to Trump and people in his class, while the middle class, who the GOP base depends on, gets no relief?

Fuhgedaboutit.
 
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#242
#242
luthervol said:
They may very well have everything to do with reforming tax laws. If the public was to see that someone making 50 million paid less as a % than someone who made 50,000, changing the tax laws to benefit the wealthiest most would become more difficult, and that is Trump's agenda.
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Well, the one tax return that was illegally lifted and put out for the world to see showed he paid an effective tax rate of 28% at a time when the top marginal rate was 35%. My guess is the rest of his returns look pretty much the same. If someone is paying the actual marginal rate in their bracket, then they're not able to itemize and that would most likely only take place at the very lower end of the marginal rates which means there's no way they're coming close to paying more than Trump. Capital gains tax rates being the exception. Look, you guys run around acting like "the rich" somehow have high powered tax attorneys and accountants that just thumb their nose at the IRS and refuse to pay taxes. That's not how it works. They would all be in jail. If you're not taking advantage of every exemption/deduction, then you're dumber than you ought to be (speaking in general terms) because the tax code is complicated and these deductions and exemptions were, by design, written in by congress to make everyone's effective tax rate lower.
 
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#243
#243
Vol737 said:
Well, the one tax return that was illegally lifted and put out for the world to see showed he paid an effective tax rate of 28% at a time when the top marginal rate was 35%. My guess is the rest of his returns look pretty much the same. If someone is paying the actual marginal rate in their bracket, then they're not able to itemize and that would most likely only take place at the very lower end of the marginal rates which means there's no way they're coming close to paying more than Trump. Capital gains tax rates being the exception. Look, you guys run around acting like "the rich" somehow have high powered tax attorneys and accountants that just thumb their nose at the IRS and refuse to pay taxes. That's not how it works. They would all be in jail. If you're not taking advantage of every exemption/deduction, then you're dumber than you ought to be (speaking in general terms) because the tax code is complicated and these deductions and exemptions were, by design, written in by congress to make everyone's effective tax rate lower.
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There is no way in gawd's green earth that you believe that.
 
#245
#245
lawgator1 said:
Not if you run on the platform that you are going to help the middle class, but then we see emerge from the proposal that it may have the opposite effect. And that it may save Trump more tax money. And all that coming after Trump promised many, many times, to release his returns, and now refuses to do so.
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I don't give two ****s if the proposal does save Trump more on taxes as long as it saves on mine and adjusting the AMT will absolutely do just that.
 
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#246
#246
hog88 said:
They were written into the tax code as a means of control.
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Yep, but not to lower everybody's tax rate. If lowering everybody's tax rate was the purpose, why go through all the complicated monkeyshines? Just set everybody's tax rate lower.
 
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#247
#247
hog88 said:
I don't give two ****s if the proposal does save Trump more on taxes as long as it saves on mine and adjusting the AMT will absolutely do just that.
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Does the effect on the deficit concern you at all? Or is personally paying less in taxes your only metric?
 
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#249
#249
Vol737 said:
Well, the one tax return that was illegally lifted and put out for the world to see showed he paid an effective tax rate of 28% at a time when the top marginal rate was 35%. My guess is the rest of his returns look pretty much the same. If someone is paying the actual marginal rate in their bracket, then they're not able to itemize and that would most likely only take place at the very lower end of the marginal rates which means there's no way they're coming close to paying more than Trump. Capital gains tax rates being the exception. Look, you guys run around acting like "the rich" somehow have high powered tax attorneys and accountants that just thumb their nose at the IRS and refuse to pay taxes. That's not how it works. They would all be in jail. If you're not taking advantage of every exemption/deduction, then you're dumber than you ought to be (speaking in general terms) because the tax code is complicated and these deductions and exemptions were, by design, written in by congress to make everyone's effective tax rate lower.
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You mean the one page that was leaked because it showed him paying taxes?
 
#250
#250
luthervol said:
Does the effect on the deficit concern you at all? Or is personally paying less in taxes your only metric?
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At this point no the effect on the deficit does not worry me and I'll tell you why. Neither party is EVER going to do what needs to be done to eliminate the deficit and debt. So right now I want what's mine!

On the reverse side, if one of the parties had a solid plan to eliminate (not just reduce) the deficit and debt which included PERMANENT cuts in spending and a constitutional amendment for a balanced budget I could accept a temporary tax increase until the debt is paid. But that's never going to happen so let me keep what's mine.
 
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