Butch 4th ranked overpaid coach in NCAA?

[05_never_again]

Were we really a legitimate thread in 2015 or 2016 though? As it stands right now, we have a built in loss to Alabama, and as of yet, CBJ has yet to be able to beat the other SECw team on the schedule.

With two probable losses on the schedule, any other SECe team can still lose to us, and still win the division. Just like Florida did in 2016; losing to us might sting, but isn't likely to derail Florida or Georgia's chances at winning the division if one of them wins the rest of their conference games.

Of course they were. All they had to do was win out after the Alabama game against lower-tier SEC competition and they would have won it. They had already completed the hard part by beating Florida and Georgia.

They totally gagged the game to Florida in 2015. If that game goes differently, Tennessee and Florida both end the season with 2 conference losses and Tennessee goes to Atlanta by virtue of the tiebreaker.

Again, very frustrating, but they were absolutely competitive. Also, the built-in loss to Alabama sucks every year but it is highly overrated in terms of its negative impact on us winning the division.

 

[BeardedVol]

yes. in this SEC E 6-2 can definitely win the EAst, especially if you beat GA and/or FL. and as it proved out in 2015, had we beaten FL, we'd of won the division even though we lost to ARK and Bama.

same in 2016. even losing to aTm and Bama, just beat the back half and we were good to go.

not sure why it's ok for FL to win the division if they lose to us, but it's not ok for us to win the division if we lose to them?????

and GA and FL have to play LSU and Auburn. sure, that's not Alabama, but those are far from gimmie wins for those two.

just say you hate butch jones regardless, and quit trying to make up reasons to.

Only if FL/GA lose a second game.

I never said it was or wasn't 'ok' to win the division even if we lose to Florida or Georgia, but that scenario is much less likely than the other way around, given that we have Alabama on schedule every year, and CBJ's inability so far, to beat the other SECw team on the schedule.

 

[05_never_again]

Well for starters, it would mean still being in contention for the SECe at the end of October, which has yet to be the case. In 2015 and 2016 we've been out of contention for the SECe with 3 conference games still left to play.

You can argue that we were "competitive", in individual conference games, but that does not equate to being competitive as contenders for the division, not when your fate is sealed barely past the half way point.

I shouldn't have put a time qualifier on it in my earlier post by saying "at some point late in the season." Tennessee's schedule has been front-loaded in recent years and we always play Florida early in the year. If we played Florida later in the season, like in November, then we'd be "in contention" until very late in the season. That's just how the schedule works out.

The fact is that when you gag big leads to the eventual division winner and that one loss costs you the division, or you beat the eventual division winner only to blow your chances at the division by losing to someone else, and you win more than 2 or 3 conference games total (e.g., you don't do something like beat Florida and then lose all/most your other conference games like a Kentucky or Vandy), I'd say you are competitive in the current makeup of the SEC East.

If we aren't competitive now, then what adjective would you put on the Dooley years? It seems like your definition of "competitive" is "win it every year."

 

[Iam4utalways]

So Butch gets a 4 year pass? Why is that? No other coach in modern history got a 4 year pass! And no, Dooley didn't wreck it to that depth.

Hell, most of you are still puffing your chest and bragging that UT is still one of 2 schools that's never lost 8 games in a season. Even Dools didn't sink UT to that depth. The fact is UT could go 5-7 for the next 100 years and that meaningless stat would still hold true.

But back to the topic, why is Butch just now at a "reasonable" starting point?

Flushing the Dooley mess took time. Let's see what he does this year, does not mean he gets a 4 year pass. His 1st 2 years were a complete overhaul, these past two years had several hiccups(blunders or poor choices) that can't keep happening if CBJ expects to keep his job here.

Timing was bad to make a move last year even after the "embarrassing" loss to Vandy that CBJ said was "unacceptable". After year 5 he will have had enough time to get out of the ditch Dooley dug, if 121 under performs(win the east and see what happens from there is the expectation), all aspects of the season should be considered carefully due to the probable cost of hitting the reset button.

 

[jakez4ut]

Only if FL/GA lose a second game.

I never said it was or wasn't 'ok' to win the division even if we lose to Florida or Georgia, but that scenario is much less likely than the other way around, given that we have Alabama on schedule every year, and CBJ's inability so far, to beat the other SECw team on the schedule.

yet it still didn't require us to beat a single west team to win the division in either of the last two years.

 

[jakez4ut]

Well for starters, it would mean still being in contention for the SECe at the end of October, which has yet to be the case. In 2015 and 2016 we've been out of contention for the SECe with 3 conference games still left to play.

You can argue that we were "competitive", in individual conference games, but that does not equate to being competitive as contenders for the division, not when your fate is sealed barely past the half way point.

really? 6 games in....fate sealed?

TN:
2015 --1st 6 games of the season, 3 SEC opponents. last 6 games, 5 SEC opponents. SEC schedule completed Nov 28.

2016--1st 6 games of the season, 3 SEC opponents, last 6 games, 5 SEC opponents. SEC schedule completed Nov 26

FL:
2015--1st 6 games, 4 SEC opponents, last 6 games, 4 SEC opponents, SEC schedule completed Nov 14
2016--1st 6 games, 4 SEC opponents, last 6 games 4 SEC opponents, SEC schedule completed Nov 19 (only due to make up game with LSU, original schedule would have them done Nov. 12)

we're hardly ever going to come out of the 1st half of the season with any fate sealed, unless we lose to both GA and FL. which hasn't happened the last two years.

 

[jakez4ut]

Only if FL/GA lose a second game.

I never said it was or wasn't 'ok' to win the division even if we lose to Florida or Georgia, but that scenario is much less likely than the other way around, given that we have Alabama on schedule every year, and CBJ's inability so far, to beat the other SECw team on the schedule.

yet FL lost to LSU in 2015, and ARK last year. they do lose games after they play us. it can happen. do those losses count less than us losing to Bama the last two years?

nope. they're equal, making the games we play head to head matter that much more.

and GA...they lost to Bama in 2015, and Ole Miss last year.

and they they went and lost to FL both years to boot as well.

 

[Boca Vol]

Flushing the Dooley mess took time. Let's see what he does this year, does not mean he gets a 4 year pass. His 1st 2 years were a complete overhaul, these past two years had several hiccups(blunders or poor choices) that can't keep happening if CBJ expects to keep his job here.

Timing was bad to make a move last year even after the "embarrassing" loss to Vandy that CBJ said was "unacceptable". After year 5 he will have had enough time to get out of the ditch Dooley dug, if 121 under performs(win the east and see what happens from there is the expectation), all aspects of the season should be considered carefully due to the probable cost of hitting the reset button.

It would have been foolish to get rid of Butch last season...although we've seen UT do stupid stuff before.

If you're going to get rid of a coach, at least have a plan of action vs. firing him and then looking around saying, "Now what?"

Now that the new chancellor and AD are in place it's time to evaluate. If the AD thinks Butch is the man to get UT to the next level, so be it. If he doesn't, it's time to get the wheels turning.

But no way can you fire a coach after going back to back 9 win seasons UNLESS you have your #1 guy with a pen in his hand ready to sign the papers.

 

[BeecherVol]

so any discussion relative to the 2017 is all conjecture and projection.

i just don't think, then, it's as a great a leap to connect those dots as you do.

fair?

You would think LA had penciled them in at 4-8.

 

[jakez4ut]

You would think LA had penciled them in at 4-8.

lol:

 

[jakez4ut]

Only if FL/GA lose a second game.

I never said it was or wasn't 'ok' to win the division even if we lose to Florida or Georgia, but that scenario is much less likely than the other way around, given that we have Alabama on schedule every year, and CBJ's inability so far, to beat the other SECw team on the schedule.

at the end of the day, if we go 6-2 in the conf, and lose it because we lost to the 2 west teams, having gone undefeated in the East then i just have to say "that's the way it goes".

it means that FL or GA went 7-1 and is probably have a special type season. and says more about how good they may be, than how bad we are. it probably means the two teams we lost to in the West are pretty good too.

and we probably have a 9-10 win season on our hands.

i'm failing to see how this is "bad" in the traditional sense of the word. and i don't care who the coach is.

 

[jakez4ut]

it also means we beat GA and FL. and that doesn't suck.

 

[BeardedVol]

really? 6 games in....fate sealed?

TN:
2015 --1st 6 games of the season, 3 SEC opponents. last 6 games, 5 SEC opponents. SEC schedule completed Nov 28.

2016--1st 6 games of the season, 3 SEC opponents, last 6 games, 5 SEC opponents. SEC schedule completed Nov 26

FL:
2015--1st 6 games, 4 SEC opponents, last 6 games, 4 SEC opponents, SEC schedule completed Nov 14
2016--1st 6 games, 4 SEC opponents, last 6 games 4 SEC opponents, SEC schedule completed Nov 19 (only due to make up game with LSU, original schedule would have them done Nov. 12)

we're hardly ever going to come out of the 1st half of the season with any fate sealed, unless we lose to both GA and FL. which hasn't happened the last two years.

Now you are just arguing semantics; I used the word "past" in that statement for a reason. With 3 conference losses by the end of October in both years, we were out of contention for the East unless Florida lost two additional SEC games. Needing an opponent to lose multiple games for you to win the division is about as a far cry from being competitive as I can think, other than outright losing all of your conference games.

There has not been a 5-3 SECe division champion since the conference organized into two divisions.

 

[05_never_again]

at the end of the day, if we go 6-2 in the conf, and lose it because we lost to the 2 west teams, having gone undefeated in the East then i just have to say "that's the way it goes".

it means that FL or GA went 7-1 and is probably have a special type season. and says more about how good they may be, than how bad we are. it probably means the two teams we lost to in the West are pretty good too.

and we probably have a 9-10 win season on our hands.

i'm failing to see how this is "bad" in the traditional sense of the word. and i don't care who the coach is.

Yep. Having to play Alabama every year is overrated in terms of the effect it has on us winning the division. Losing to them hasn't cost us a division title, at least in recent history, and in all likelihood the bolded scenario in the quote above is the precise way it would cost us, which hasn't happened.

Plus everything is cyclical. Alabama sucked for an extended period of time from the mid-90s until the mid-2000s, with it being a comfortable win lots of those years.

 

[jakez4ut]

Now you are just arguing semantics; I used the word "past" in that statement for a reason. With 3 conference losses by the end of October in both years, we were out of contention for the East unless Florida lost two additional SEC games. Needing an opponent to lose multiple games for you to win the division is about as a far cry from being competitive as I can think, other than outright losing all of your conference games.

There has not been a 5-3 SECe division champion since the conference organized into two divisions.

semantics? you said the fate is sealed at the halfway point. which is wholly inaccurate since we have 5 games to play in the 2nd half of most seasons.

you just need to check the schedule before you make some of the comments you do. cause most are easily proven wrong.

 

[jakez4ut]

keep reading bearded, it gets better...

 

[jakez4ut]

Now you are just arguing semantics; I used the word "past" in that statement for a reason. With 3 conference losses by the end of October in both years, we were out of contention for the East unless Florida lost two additional SEC games. Needing an opponent to lose multiple games for you to win the division is about as a far cry from being competitive as I can think, other than outright losing all of your conference games.

There has not been a 5-3 SECe division champion since the conference organized into two divisions.

so? what's that got to do with anything you've been ranting about? your whole premise is this notion that poor little TN has to play Alabama every year, and that's not fair because FL and GA are less likely to lose to their West opponents...

which again, proven false, if you just do a little, and i mean a little, digging.

and an assumption that we're going to lose to GA and/or FL every year...again, which hasn't happened the last two years.
:thumbsup:

 

[BeardedVol]

semantics? you said the fate is sealed at the halfway point. which is wholly inaccurate since we have 5 games to play in the 2nd half of most seasons.

you just need to check the schedule before you make some of the comments you do. cause most are easily proven wrong.

... barely past the half way point.

Doe it really matter though? In both 2015 and 2016, we were out of contention for the division, with 3 conference games left to play.

 

[jakez4ut]

Doe it really matter though? In both 2015 and 2016, we were out of contention for the division, with 3 conference games left to play.

so game 7 is Bama, which is an automatic loss, so what does it matter?

care to comment on the fact that GA lost to west teams the last two years? or that FL did too? or that we beat both teams (GA twice) in either of those seasons?

the only definition of "not competitive" that fits for your argument is the one you've made up.

 

[BeardedVol]

so game 7 is Bama, which is an automatic loss, so what does it matter?

care to comment on the fact that GA lost to west teams the last two years? or that FL did too? or that we beat both teams (GA twice) in either of those seasons?

the only definition of "not competitive" that fits for your argument is the one you've made up.

Having 3conference losses before by the end of October, and being out of the running for he SECe with 3 conference games left to play, is not being competitive in the division, despite beating GA and FL.

 

[Iam4utalways]

It would have been foolish to get rid of Butch last season...although we've seen UT do stupid stuff before.

If you're going to get rid of a coach, at least have a plan of action vs. firing him and then looking around saying, "Now what?"

Now that the new chancellor and AD are in place it's time to evaluate. If the AD thinks Butch is the man to get UT to the next level, so be it. If he doesn't, it's time to get the wheels turning.

But no way can you fire a coach after going back to back 9 win seasons UNLESS you have your #1 guy with a pen in his hand ready to sign the papers.

This year could be the best year to see how a CBJ team responds to having so much talent leave the team at one time.

I agree with the idea of having the replacement ready before letting a current coach go, even the best plans go bust when dealing with people and money.

Maybe one or both of our QBs will save CBJ's job for next couple of years by shocking the world along with Volnation.

 

[jakez4ut]

This year could be the best year to see how a CBJ team responds to having so much talent leave the team at one time.

I agree with the idea of having the replacement ready before letting a current coach go, even the best plans go bust when dealing with people and money.

Maybe one or both of our QBs will save CBJ's job for next couple of years by shocking the world along with Volnation.

interesting. one of the things i wanted to see about last year was how CBJ's teams handled success?

i think in 2013, 14 and 15 we saw how they handled adversity.

honestly, i think this team winds up resembling the teams we saw in 14 and 15. great effort, flashes of what might yet come, and some difficult growing pains.

 

[05_never_again]

interesting. one of the things i wanted to see about last year was how CBJ's teams handled success?

i think in 2013, 14 and 15 we saw how they handled adversity.

honestly, i think this team winds up resembling the teams we saw in 14 and 15. great effort, flashes of what might yet come, and some difficult growing pains.

Great - his relatively lower talent teams handle adversity poorly and his relatively higher talented teams handle success poorly.

Hopefully that is a function of younger players handling adversity poorly and players not used to having success and being a target for other teams handling that poorly.

He's been here 4 years, but it does take a long time to build an entire team full of veteran guys who are used to having success. Only truly elite programs really can say that.

 

[jakez4ut]

Great - his relatively lower talent teams handle adversity poorly and his relatively higher talented teams handle success poorly.

lol...well, not quite...but sure.

i think in 13 and 14 they handled the adversity well. 15, to a lesser degree, though they could have folded tent after the ARK game and didn't.

in 16, i think it's pretty well documented how we did with the "success".

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I step away from the computer for a couple of hours, and you guys fill this thread up.

Well, I certainly seem to be taking the brunt of your frustration, JP.

Truce?

Sorry about that, LA, I shouldn't have made it about you or your post in particular. You're a level-headed fellow, I know that.

Absolutely truce. And looking forward to whupping butt this year, putting the NegaVols into backpedalling convulsions (*fingers crossed*).

Go Vols!