Butch 4th ranked overpaid coach in NCAA?

[orangeluvr]

Love the off season space fillers.

 

[KBVol]

9-4 is not a spectacular fail at Tennessee especially when it includes a win over Florida and a bowl win. This is not a self aware comment.

Not winning a poor SEC East, when literally everybody had you favored, and rightfully so, because you lost to SCar and Vandy is failing spectacularly. No way to see that otherwise imo.

If you'd have said we're gonna finish 9-4 overall, 4-4 in the conference and lose to those two perennial scrubs this time last year on Volnation, you'd have been the victim of multiple freaking "hate crimes"on here.....9-4 last year was a spectacular fail, which is why there is plenty of talk about Jones being overpaid and coaching for his job this year.

 

[05_never_again]

Not winning a poor SEC East, when literally everybody had you favored, and rightfully so, because you lost to SCar and Vandy is failing spectacularly. No way to see that otherwise imo.

If you'd have said we're gonna finish 9-4 overall, 4-4 in the conference and lose to those two perennial scrubs this time last year on Volnation, you'd have been the victim of multiple freaking "hate crimes"on here.....9-4 last year was a spectacular fail, which is why there is plenty of talk about Jones being overpaid and coaching for his job this year.

Don't overplay your hand - a year in which you beat Florida and Georgia isn't a spectacular fail. The Vandy and South Carolina losses effectively wiped out any good feelings you can take away from those victories, leaving you with a very "bleh" season, and hence the pressure really piling on Butch now.

 

[jakez4ut]

Don't overplay your hand - a year in which you beat Florida and Georgia isn't a spectacular fail. The Vandy and South Carolina losses effectively wiped out any good feelings you can take away from those victories, leaving you with a very "bleh" season, and hence the pressure really piling on Butch now.

agreed. spectacular fail would have been losing to GA and FL....too.

last season was like getting your desert first.

here's your favorite cake....2 months later...now, eat these brussel sprouts.

you still got the cake. you just don't feel as good about it now.

 

[KBVol]

Don't overplay your hand - a year in which you beat Florida and Georgia isn't a spectacular fail. The Vandy and South Carolina losses effectively wiped out any good feelings you can take away from those victories, leaving you with a very "bleh" season, and hence the pressure really piling on Butch now.

Imho, it is when you don't win the SECe, don't reach any of your goals because you cant beat SCar and Vandy. Throw in the loss to Bama by 40 points if you want.

Those wins vs Florida and Georgia were great, I was thrilled when they happened. But where did they get us? All the good from those wins were wiped out with the bad losses and no trip to Atlanta. We were the overwhelming favorite to represent the East vs Alabama in the SECCG, it was all set up for us. Instead, we got an average Nebraska team in a meaningless middling bowl game. Epic failure of a season imo.

 

[Boca Vol]

Smart inherited a gold mine, CBJ inherited a dumpster fire. CBJ had to completely change the culture.

Give me a break! How long does Jones need to change the culture? This will be his 5th year.

Like I said in an earlier post, if Butch is still here in 10 years there will be some posters still whining about Dooley.

 

[jbr82]

9-4 is not a spectacular fail at Tennessee especially when it includes a win over Florida and a bowl win. This is not a self aware comment.

Not all fans think like you...me included

 

[terrypedigo]

Coach Jones coaching staff has hurt him the last few years now we will see what kind of coach he is now sense we got a decent staff can't have no more melt downs in big games or choke against Vandy when you are leading 21-7 and with a win go to the Sugar Bowl you just can't do that and expect the fan base to back you.

 

[05_never_again]

Imho, it is when you don't win the SECe, don't reach any of your goals because you cant beat SCar and Vandy. Throw in the loss to Bama by 40 points if you want.

Those wins vs Florida and Georgia were great, I was thrilled when they happened. But where did they get us? All the good from those wins were wiped out with the bad losses and no trip to Atlanta. We were the overwhelming favorite to represent the East vs Alabama in the SECCG, it was all set up for us. Instead, we got an average Nebraska team in a meaningless middling bowl game. Epic failure of a season imo.

Well, they should have gotten us to the SECCG. They were wiped out by the Vandy and S Car losses, but to act like they didn't even occur sounds like you just want to dismiss anything good that happened. Sure, Tennessee was favored in the game, but we broke an 11-game losing streak to Florida. That was one of the most fun Tennessee games I have personally attended in a long time, so I know I won't forget it.

If a 9-4 season is an "epic failure" for your program, then I'd say Butch is actually doing pretty good (which is ironic, because I assume you are saying this as a criticism of Butch).

 

[tennrich1]

Not winning a poor SEC East, when literally everybody had you favored, and rightfully so, because you lost to SCar and Vandy is failing spectacularly. No way to see that otherwise imo.

If you'd have said we're gonna finish 9-4 overall, 4-4 in the conference and lose to those two perennial scrubs this time last year on Volnation, you'd have been the victim of multiple freaking "hate crimes"on here.....9-4 last year was a spectacular fail, which is why there is plenty of talk about Jones being overpaid and coaching for his job this year.

Obviously you don't remember the REAL SPECTACULAR fail games/season from our history but I get your point...

 

[jonnon111]

He is 18th highest paid coach and finished ranked 22nd.

Not a huge difference. Just sayin

 

[BowlBrother85]

Not all fans think like you...me included

Right... Some fans are delusional and think 9-4 is a spectacular failure for Tennessee football when in reality it is our average record since 1985... (and I use that year because it was the first SEC title under Majors and represented a return to prominence for UT football with the Miami win)

That is a fact.

Since '85 Tennessee has a record of 253-127-4. That is 8.04 wins per season and 3.97 losses per season. I am throwing in an extra win for the 12th regular season game we now play. That still just comes out to 9-4.

 

[jakez4ut]

Right... Some fans are delusional and think 9-4 is a spectacular failure for Tennessee football when in reality it is our average record since 1985... (and I use that year because it was the first SEC title under Majors and represented a return to prominence for UT football with the Miami win)

That is a fact.

Since '85 Tennessee has a record of 253-127-4. That is 8.04 wins per season and 3.97 losses per season. I am throwing in an extra win for the 12th regular season game we now play. That still just comes out to 9-4.

at least that's better than saying "all time history".

but really, it still doesn't matter. history is not on a flat line, indicating nothing should, or will, change throughout time.

if historical precedent is the manner we should judge how things should/will be......well, let's just say, i won't be going home to my cave tonight and throwing a log on the fire......

 

[LA Vol]

The loss to SCAR was bad, but most fans would have looked past it if the team hadn't lost to Vandy. You can't lose the SECE by blowing a winnable game to a lesser opponent, then double down on blown expectations by losing to an even worse team and blowing a Sugar Bowl bid. It doesn't matter who the coach is-- that's going to raise questions about a coach's value.

 

[BowlBrother85]

at least that's better than saying "all time history".

but really, it still doesn't matter. history is not on a flat line, indicating nothing should, or will, change throughout time.

if historical precedent is the manner we should judge how things should/will be......well, let's just say, i won't be going home to my cave tonight and throwing a log on the fire......

I just think it's important to be self aware. A lot of programs make big mistakes in firing coaches who are winning 9 games a season because they think they are better than that... only to hire Charlie Strong and find out they're not.

 

[05_never_again]

I just think it's important to be self aware. A lot of programs make big mistakes in firing coaches who are winning 9 games a season because they think they are better than that... only to hire Charlie Strong and find out they're not.

It's a tough spot to be in for sure, because Texas is (or should be) better than that, but it is a dangerous proposition to fire a very good coach (or a coach who was very good at one point) in search of a great one.

Tennessee knows that better than maybe any other school out there.

 

[pimo1]

In a national context, he's definitely overpaid atm.


In the context of the SEC, I'm not so sure. Guys are paid a lot more to coach in the SEC than in most other conferences. There's a reason 3 of the top 4 names on that list were SEC guys. Its because mid tier SEC coaches get paid like top tier coaches in many other conferences.

this exactly, SEC coaches get paid more than coaches in other conferences so of course those deemed as "overpaid" will be disproportionately from the SEC.

The question is what metric do they use? divide salary by number of wins? In that case do you factor in strength of schedule?

Lets be realistic. Any team in the SECwest plus UT, in the last decade, would be punished in any such metric by the fact they play Bama every year.

Putting things into perspective an dismissing fanboy fervor that tells you your team should win every game no matter what damn logic Jones has done a great job turning a dumpster fire around. Can he turn that final corner these next 2 years? Who knows it is really gonna come down to what happens at QB and Oline this year and next.

 

[LA Vol]

All 9-game scenarios aren't the same when a program has championship aspirations and commits substantial resources toward achieving them. If the Vols go 8-4 and lose to all 3 top rivals and both SECW teams, then beat a scrub team in a lower-tier bowl and finish 3rd in the SECE, is that really a quality season? At some point, winning the SECE has to be a mandate.

 

[05_never_again]

this exactly, SEC coaches get paid more than coaches in other conferences so of course those deemed as "overpaid" will be disproportionately from the SEC.

That's because there are a bunch of overpaid coaches in the SEC. I don't think people realize how much mediocrity is out there right now. Maybe it'll take another season of SEC play like last year to get people to see it. Once you get past Saban, there are just a bunch of "guys" coaching the other schools. The coaching talent has been slowly but surely hollowed out in the SEC over the last several years. Good/once good coaches have been fired (Fulmer, Richt, Miles), quit (Meyer, Spurrier) or left for other schools (Franklin) and have been replaced by people that are nowhere near as good or the jury is still out on.

Maybe it is just me, but the relative lack of depth in coaching talent is obvious between the SEC and the Big 10, perhaps even the ACC and Pac 12.

 

[Boca Vol]

Right... Some fans are delusional and think 9-4 is a spectacular failure for Tennessee football when in reality it is our average record since 1985... (and I use that year because it was the first SEC title under Majors and represented a return to prominence for UT football with the Miami win)

That is a fact.

Since '85 Tennessee has a record of 253-127-4. That is 8.04 wins per season and 3.97 losses per season. I am throwing in an extra win for the 12th regular season game we now play. That still just comes out to 9-4.

Are you saying you'd be OK with UT going 9-4 or 8-5 every year? I don't think the majority of the fabbase would be OK with that. There has to be some seasons above that that include trips to ATL. Granted you'd have some 7-6 years to even it out but UT needs to hit double digits in wins 2 or 3 times out of 5 seasons, IMO.

 

[BowlBrother85]

]Are you saying you'd be OK with UT going 9-4 or 8-5 every year?[/B] I don't think the majority of the fabbase would be OK with that. There has to be some seasons above that that include trips to ATL. Granted you'd have some 7-6 years to even it out but UT needs to hit double digits in wins 2 or 3 times out of 5 seasons, IMO.

Not at all. I'm just not going to overreact to 9-4. To paraphrase Jordan, the ceiling is the roof at Tennessee. 2016 was a big disappointment. We should never go 18 years without an SEC title which is our current drought.

 

[Boca Vol]

Not at all. I'm just not going to overreact to 9-4. To paraphrase Jordan, the ceiling is the roof at Tennessee. 2016 was a big disappointment. We should never go 18 years without an SEC title which is our current drought.

I tend to agree with you but 10-2 or 9-3 should have been the floor for last year's team...whereas 9-3 or 10-2 would be considered overachieving this year.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I prefer objective ways of measuring things like "overpaid," because people who compile these lists typically have angles they're playing. And without objective comparisons, it's easy for them to hide their bias. For instance, this guy clearly wants to say that SEC coaches are overpaid, even overhyped, as a group.

But look at the objective measures. Let's take 2016 salary and 2016 wins. See how much each school paid its head coach for each win. Just as one indicator.

Who is most overpaid, objectively looking at it?

* Bronco Mendenhall, Virginia, @ $1.637M per win (2 wins, $3.275M pay)

Imagine if we got only got only 2 or 3 wins out of Butch, after paying him $4.1M! That's the equivalent of Mendenhall's performance (in fairness to him, Mendenhall is only in his first year; things could get better).

Behind Bronco, it's:

* Mark Dantonio, Michigan State, at $1.433M for each win (3 wins, $4.3M pay)

Note, that is Dantonio, a long-established coach at a major university, making a bit more than Butch, and he only eked out 3 wins last year. If he were in Knoxville, can you imagine...?

The most overpaid SEC coach is:

* Hugh Freeze, Ole Miss, at $0.941M per win (5 wins, $4.703M pay)

One this scale, Butch Jones is in the lower half, the less-expensive half, of the Power 5 teams. He's at # 35 on the list of 65 (actually, 35 of 60, because USA Today didn't have pay data for five of the 65 coaches).

* Butch Jones, Tennessee, @ $0.457M per win (9 wins, $4.110M pay)

Almost every other SEC coach is more expensive than him. So is Bob Stoops. So is Jimbo Fisher. And Urban Meyer.

Here are the Top 10 most overpaid coaches in the Power 5, according to objective measures of the 2016 season:

SCHOOL - CONF - COACH - TOTAL PAY - Wins - $/Win
Virginia - ACC - Br. Mendenhall - $3,275,000 - 2 - $1,637,500
Mich St - Big 10 - Mark Dantonio - $4,300,000 - 3 - $1,433,333
Texas - Big 12 - Charlie Strong - $5,200,130 - 5 - $1,040,026
Rutgers - Big 10 - Chris Ash - $2,000,000 - 2 - $1,000,000
Arizona - Pac-12 - Rich Rodriguez - $2,860,000 - 3 - $953,333
Ole Miss - SEC - Hugh Freeze - $4,703,500 - 5 - $940,700
Michigan - Big 10 - Jim Harbaugh - $9,004,000 - 10 - $900,400
UCLA - Pac-12 - Jim Mora - $3,450,000 - 4 - $862,500
Oregon - Pac-12 - Mark Helfrich - $3,312,700 - 4 - $828,175
Purdue - Big 10 - Darrell Hazell - $2,190,000 - 3 - $730,000

It's nice to look at things objectively, get away from the writer's hidden angles and agendas, sometimes.


p.s. What coach is best-value, using 2016 measures?

* Tracy Claeys, Minnesota, @ $0.156M per win (9 wins, $1.4M total salary)

 

[BeardedVol]

I prefer objective ways of measuring things like "overpaid," because people who compile these lists typically have angles they're playing. And without objective comparisons, it's easy for them to hide their bias. For instance, this guy clearly wants to say that SEC coaches are overpaid, even overhyped, as a group.

But look at the objective measures. Let's take 2016 salary and 2016 wins. See how much each school paid its head coach for each win. Just as one indicator.

Who is most overpaid, objectively looking at it?

* Bronco Mendenhall, Virginia, @ $1.637M per win (2 wins, $3.275M pay)

Imagine if we got only got only 2 or 3 wins out of Butch, after paying him $4.1M! That's the equivalent of Mendenhall's performance (in fairness to him, Mendenhall is only in his first year; things could get better).

Behind Bronco, it's:

* Mark Dantonio, Michigan State, at $1.433M for each win (3 wins, $4.3M pay)

Note, that is Dantonio, a long-established coach at a major university, making a bit more than Butch, and he only eked out 3 wins last year. If he were in Knoxville, can you imagine...?

The most overpaid SEC coach is:

* Hugh Freeze, Ole Miss, at $0.941M per win (5 wins, $4.703M pay)

One this scale, Butch Jones is in the lower half, the less-expensive half, of the Power 5 teams. He's at # 35 on the list of 65 (actually, 35 of 60, because USA Today didn't have pay data for five of the 65 coaches).

* Butch Jones, Tennessee, @ $0.457M per win (9 wins, $4.110M pay)

Almost every other SEC coach is more expensive than him. So is Bob Stoops. So is Jimbo Fisher. And Urban Meyer.

Here are the Top 10 most overpaid coaches in the Power 5, according to objective measures of the 2016 season:



It's nice to look at things objectively, get away from the writer's hidden angles and agendas, sometimes.

That only works if all wins are equal. Would you say that the win against TN Tech was equal to the win against Florida or Georgia?

Until we are winning the division and the conference, OOC and bowl wins are utterly meaningless.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

That only works if all wins are equal. Would you say that the win against TN Tech was equal to the win against Florida or Georgia?

Until we are winning the division and the conference, OOC and bowl wins are utterly meaningless.

That's why you only look at Power 5 schools. Then, each win is not necessarily equal, but the seasons (roughly) are. Every Power 5 team plays 8 or 9 other Power 5 teams (or more, when you add bowls and championships), and 3 or 4 Group of 5/FCS schools. So every season is, very roughly, about on par.

So when Team A only wins 3 games in a season where they played 9 Power 5 and 3 Group of 5 opponents, and Team B wins 9 games in their season of 9 Power 5 and 3 Group of 5 opponents, it's a valid comparison.

You're right that it would NOT be a valid way of comparing coaching value if we were looking at one win at a time. If Coach A only won one game, but it was against Arkansas, while Coach B only won one game, but it was against Tulane, their single wins would not be valid for comparison. That's why you have to go in lumps of one or more seasons.