I think we are better

#51
#51
Wanting Butch to lose, and acknowledging the probability that he will not see much more success in the SEC, is not the same thing.

Well you see it your way and I see it mine. I'm with the OP. I easily could be wrong, but I'm not going to hate winning 18 games the last 2 seasons after the decade of garbage. I'm not satisfied or settling, but I'm not ready to blow it up. This University and Football program needs continuity, and I'm not going to be on a lot of y'alls team with wanting to see Butch out. At least not now. If we fired him, who the hell would want to come here?
 
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#52
#52
Let's review OP's post because, none of it sounds anything like what you've stated above.

That's pure, unadulterated orange conjecture, and while admirable in it's enthusiasm, states no basis on anything remotely factual or evidenced by the last 4 seasons.


Depth, identity, size, speed. He's giving an opinion on what he's seen. Not sure why that's so hard to understand.


Yes. Basing your predictions/opinions/beliefs on empirical evidence as has been shown in 4 seasons of football, recruiting classes, and coaching hires, is more relevant them feeling that next year is our year because of "reasons". The same goes for what is possible and probable. Hell, one can argue that anything is possible, but given what we have seen, you can't argue that just anything is probable.

You're playing semantics. Everyone sees the same roster, coaching hires, depth, etc. Not everyone interprets that data that same way. Just because you think that data leads you to one conclusion, doesn't mean it's more "probable" than someone else's conclusion.

You continue to make the assumptions that your interpretations are somehow more probable than everyone else's. Professional college football analysts who study these things endlessly may have a 2-3 game difference in their projections for a specific team. It's not because one guy looks at what's probable and others don't, it's because they interpret the evidence differently.

Doesn't seem like we are going to agree, so you can keep thinking yours is the only rational view.


So you are taking the position that our losses on defense, somehow affected the complete offensive meltdowns that we experienced in the USCe and Vandy games? Or are you taking the position that USCe and Vandy fielded more talent on their offense than we fielded on defense?
I'm taking the position that losing players to injury can affect a team as much or more than losing players to graduation.

Why is Butch's record in lower tier conferences relevant to his production in the SEC? I can understand the argument for hiring him, he was coaching at that level, and you don't have much else to go on, but he's starting year five here, and we have plenty of film to judge him on. Unless, you are equating coaching in the SEC to coaching in the AAC and the MAC, which I think even Butch would disagree with you on that one.
We're just talking trends. You seem to keep insuating that anyone who is positive about the future is basing that only on feelings and not data. I just tossed out a piece of data that some might consider when judging the upcoming season: Butch's trend as been upward at every stop, including here. So it's not improbable, as you put it, to think this team could improve.


I didn't have a "feeling" that Butch lost to Muschamp. Muschamp has beaten butch at every meeting, with good talent at Florida, with mediocre talent at Florida, and with poor talent at USCe. That's not a feeling at this point, that's just painful history. As far as Smart and McElwain go, congrats to Butch he's 1-1 against Jim Bob Butterteeth, and he beat Smart in his first year as a head coach in a last ditch hail Mary.

Considering that in a year that we beat Florida and Georgia, and still didn't make it to the SECCG, and are reliving those two wins, says a lot about how the season played out.
None of that is relevant to your original point: which was that losses to Vandy and SC are more important factors with which to judge next season, rather than the victories over McElwain and Smart. I'm not sure there's any empiral evidence of that.
 
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#53
#53
Well you see it your way and I see it mine. I'm with the OP. I easily could be wrong, but I'm not going to hate winning 18 games the last 2 seasons after the decade of garbage. I'm not satisfied or settling, but I'm not ready to blow it up. This University and Football program needs continuity, and I'm not going to be on a lot of y'alls team with wanting to see Butch out. At least not now. If we fired him, who the hell would want to come here?

I know a guy in Florida....
 
#54
#54
If Kelly continues to dominate and Chandler pans out we're bound to see one leave

The lines need to step up in a big way if we want to have a good year

Maybe that was poorly worded it just seemed odd that he suddenly hit and then leaves. Thanks for the explanation about Malone it never really occurred to me.

Hurt or otherwise someone has big shoes to fill and I didn't see anyone that could yet jmo.

I don't agree. I think in today's landscape there's plenty of room for two featured backs, unlike a position such as quarterback where it's typically all in on one guy.

Agree about the line.
 
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#56
#56
I don't agree. I think in today's landscape there's plenty of room for two featured backs, unlike a position such as quarterback where it's typically all in on one guy.

Agree about the line.

Not what I meant sorry I wasn't more clear the guys behind them will transfer imo.
 
#59
#59
I know a guy in Florida....

I have no true love for coach boom...but, and his luck of having Muschamp's defense is about to run out....the "offensive genius" has been living off that stellar D for 2 years and his O has been crap. Not no mo....will see if he can coach this year and beyond.
 
#60
#60
Hey Behr. Good to see you. :)

Kind of you to say. Its good to be seen. I hope you've learned something tonight. If not, you will be able to read my analysis in Chapter 3: Arguing with Fence posts and their holes.
 
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#61
#61
I have no true love for coach boom...but, and his luck of having Muschamp's defense is about to run out....the "offensive genius" has been living off that stellar D for 2 years and his O has been crap. Not no mo....will see if he can coach this year and beyond.

It was Ye Ole Lane.
 
#62
#62
Wanting Butch to lose, and acknowledging the probability that he will not see much more success in the SEC, is not the same thing.

"could" happen...I think Jones is a decent coach....much like probably 75 - 80 % of the rest in CFB. I'd only put about 1-3 % in the top and probably 15% in the bottom.

Saban, the coach you all want to lionize, loses at least one a year he shouldn't...with the best recruiting classes year after year....so....how does he do that? Is he a bad coach? Sure he out-talents just about everyone....but why could/should he ever lose a game?

2016 was disapointing for sure...more from a way they played perspective than the W/L...for me at least. I do think injuries had an effect, but it cannot be waived off as the absolute excuse. Team appeared unmotivated, soft and undisiplined frome the start.

I tend to agree w/ the OP in principle....there is talent on this squad. If the meld and play tough....then, they'll win more than lose.
 
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#63
#63
Depth, identity, size, speed. He's giving an opinion on what he's seen. Not sure why that's so hard to understand.

I have to wonder if you are being intentionally obtuse at this point considering OP made the statement "We are inexperienced at key positions.. true, but we are deep with inexperience" , which makes absolutely no sense, and the rest of his post comments on the vagaries such as "Every position is filled with guys that are being brought up the tennessee way and won't quit", and the one snippit that a person might consider, reasoning, in "A passing nfl attack with speedsters everywhere, huge ass tight ends, and a significant deep threat", but is still akin to me walking outside and saying "it's a thursday, and that cloud is shaped like Abe Lincoln, I think it will snow tomorrow".

You're playing semantics. Everyone sees the same roster, coaching hires, depth, etc. Not everyone interprets that data that same way. Just because you think that data leads you to one conclusion, doesn't mean it's more "probable" than someone else's conclusion.

You continue to make the assumptions that your interpretations are somehow more probable than everyone else's. Professional college football analysts who study these things endlessly may have a 2-3 game difference in their projections for a specific team. It's not because one guy looks at what's probable and others don't, it's because they interpret the evidence differently.

Doesn't seem like we are going to agree, so you can keep thinking yours is the only rational view.

Either you don't understand the usage of the word semantics or you missed the point. You asked if I thought my opinion was more valid, and my response was because it's based on empirical observation, wherein his is literally based on how he feels about this current recruiting class, and his hopes CBJ will find success.

We don't have to agree, you didn't have to respond to my post, but you wanted to debate the issue, so I responded. I don't entertain any thoughts of swaying you to my mode of thinking, because whether you agree with me or not is irrelevant.

I'm taking the position that losing players to injury can affect a team as much or more than losing players to graduation.

You're deflecting answering the question after implying the losing key players during the 2016 had as much or more impact on its poor outcome, as the 2016 attrition could have on the 2017 season. The poor outcome of the 2016 season is directly attributed to the losses to USCe and Vandy.

We're just talking trends. You seem to keep insuating that anyone who is positive about the future is basing that only on feelings and not data. I just tossed out a piece of data that some might consider when judging the upcoming season: Butch's trend as been upward at every stop, including here. So it's not improbable, as you put it, to think this team could improve.

And I would argue that how CBJ performed in lower tier conferences, is irrelevant now that he has 4 seasons in the SEC, and is sub .500 in conference play, and right at .500 if you give him a pass on the first year. Winning in the AAC or the MAC has no bearing on his ability to win in the SEC.

None of that is relevant to your original point: which was that losses to Vandy and SC are more important factors with which to judge next season, rather than the victories over McElwain and Smart. I'm not sure there's any empiral evidence of that.

Irrelevant? Taking out all emotion of referencing UT, If you play a team and lose to them, and I then give you a less talented/less experienced team, and tell you to play the same team, but that team is now more talented and experienced than the previous iteration of the team that you lost to, would you consider your chances favorable or unfavorable going into that game?
 
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#64
#64
"could" happen...I think Jones is a decent coach....much like probably 75 - 80 % of the rest in CFB. I'd only put about 1-3 % in the top and probably 15% in the bottom.

I'd be curious to see how you break that down:

3% at the top
80% in the middle
15% bottom

Whos' the last 2%, who are prime examples of coaches in each tier? 80% is going to be a huge number of coaches with some starkly contrasted records

Saban, the coach you all want to lionize, loses at least one a year he shouldn't...with the best recruiting classes year after year....so....how does he do that? Is he a bad coach? Sure he out-talents just about everyone....but why could/should he ever lose a game?

CBJs problem hasn't been just dropping a game here, and there, it's how he drops them, and who he drops them to. You have to look at the context of the losses. Before the season started, except for maybe D4H no expected Butch to take team 120 to SECCG on an undefeated streak, but I also don't think anyone expected the team to struggle against every opponent including App State and Ohio, and lose to USCe and Vandy.

2016 was disapointing for sure...more from a way they played perspective than the W/L...for me at least. I do think injuries had an effect, but it cannot be waived off as the absolute excuse. Team appeared unmotivated, soft and undisiplined frome the start.

I don't disagree that injuries impacted this team in 2016, I just don't think that the impact was great enough to justify losing to USCe and Vandy in the manor that we lost. The lack of focus/discipline/motivation, that's all on CBJ as the head coach.

I tend to agree w/ the OP in principle....there is talent on this squad. If the meld and play tough....then, they'll win more than lose.

I don't doubt that there's talent, but in reference to other teams in the division, I question whether or not this staff can take this much 3* talent and compete, given that what we've seen so far.
 
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#65
#65
I have to wonder if you are being intentionally obtuse at this point considering OP made the statement "We are inexperienced at key positions.. true, but we are deep with inexperience" , which makes absolutely no sense, and the rest of his post comments on the vagaries such as "Every position is filled with guys that are being brought up the tennessee way and won't quit", and the one snippit that a person might consider, reasoning, in "A passing nfl attack with speedsters everywhere, huge ass tight ends, and a significant deep threat", but is still akin to me walking outside and saying "it's a thursday, and that cloud is shaped like Abe Lincoln, I think it will snow tomorrow".
I'm kinda wondering the same about you, honestly.



We don't have to agree, you didn't have to respond to my post, but you wanted to debate the issue, so I responded. I don't entertain any thoughts of swaying you to my mode of thinking, because whether you agree with me or not is irrelevant.
I responded to your post, in hopes that you'd join the discussion beyond "believing something doesn't make it true." Furthermore, I'm not even sure how something that hasn't happened yet can be true or false.

You're deflecting answering the question after implying the losing key players during the 2016 had as much or more impact on its poor outcome, as the 2016 attrition could have on the 2017 season. The poor outcome of the 2016 season is directly attributed to the losses to USCe and Vandy.
You brought up loss on production from the 2016 team. I simply pointed to injuries last season were also lost production.

And I would argue that how CBJ performed in lower tier conferences, is irrelevant now that he has 4 seasons in the SEC, and is sub .500 in conference play, and right at .500 if you give him a pass on the first year. Winning in the AAC or the MAC has no bearing on his ability to win in the SEC.
Who said it did?



Irrelevant? Taking out all emotion of referencing UT, If you play a team and lose to them, and I then give you a less talented/less experienced team, and tell you to play the same team, but that team is now more talented and experienced than the previous iteration of the team that you lost to, would you consider your chances favorable or unfavorable going into that game?
You're still completely missing my point, which was in reference to your comment of Butch's losses to Muschamp and Mason having more bearing on next season than victories over Smart and McElwain.

I think I'll bow out of the discussion at this point as you're dead set that your vision for next season is based on some empirical evidence that only you can see, and everyone else is working with only feelings. That was really the gist my debate with you.

Have a good night. :hi:
 
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#66
#66
Have a good night. :hi:

SP9Pu.gif
 
#68
#68
well you see it your way and i see it mine. I'm with the op. I easily could be wrong, but i'm not going to hate winning 18 games the last 2 seasons after the decade of garbage. I'm not satisfied or settling, but i'm not ready to blow it up. This university and football program needs continuity, and i'm not going to be on a lot of y'alls team with wanting to see butch out. At least not now. If we fired him, who the hell would want to come here?

this!
 

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#69
#69
on NSD it said we had seven on offense and defense that are returning starters...from last year how could you tell...seems we had new starters on offense and defense every week...no matter seven is my lucky number so, we're gonna have a really good year...just hide and watch...:)

GO VOLS!
 
#70
#70
What are you adding to the conversation here? Why don't you state what point it is you're trying to make?

The guy states an opinion about the team and your response is "believing something doesn't make it true?"

I think everyone is aware of that fact. Most are also aware that the future is unpredictable.

Butch's past says his teams improve from year to year more than they regress. So, folks thinking that trend will continue, based on ten seasons worth of games, is a perfectly logical conclusion to make.

As to your last paragraph, I think there's legitimate debate to be had Freak as to whether or not team 120 improved from the previous season. I honestly thought we were an overall better, better coached and certainly a much more disciplined team in 2015 over 2016 despite the identical record. I think the trend of having his teams improve year to year was broken last season. Here's to hoping he starts a new one with team 121 this year.
 
#71
#71
I think we are a lot better off then a lot of you guys. We are inexperienced at key positions.. true, but we are deep with inexperience. We can rotate inexperience all day long now. These guys are football guys, they eat, breath, and bath in it. We have three deep at every position. All filling a roll. We have an identity now. A passing nfl attack with speedsters everywhere, huge ass tight ends, and a significant deep threat. Every position is filled with guys that are being brought up the tennessee way and won't quit. I'm in until proven false.

Your coach cant lose to a awful South Carolina team .. game over
 
#72
#72
We can go fanatical and unreasonable and crazed when the season begins (at least I do), now is the time for reason. We have many guys who have been in the back ground and given game time here and there who are now ready to take over. Together with the depth we just added, and the fact that everyone except salami will be in the same position this year as us, I think we should be in a good position. Normally inexperience would scare the bejeezus out of me, but this team is used to playing youth right away. Coach Jones is getting used to it. We play more youth then anyone, and the way we can rotate these guys constantly now, all that youth adds up to speed. A big part of our success this year is going to be NO DISTRACTIONS.
 
#73
#73
And, one more thing I think it's important to say here. Lets all remind ourselves that Coach Jones didn't just pick these guys out of a hat o.k., he has been forming relationships with some of these kids since grade school. CJ is close with their families at this point. he KNOWS what he is getting himself into with these young men. Also, whoever does the scouting on these young men obviously knows what he's doing. He consistently picks out under recruited kids that turn out to be 5 star talent. he does it way above what he should be able to do. The guy is VERY good at it.
 
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#74
#74
What are you adding to the conversation here? Why don't you state what point it is you're trying to make?

The guy states an opinion about the team and your response is "believing something doesn't make it true?"

I think everyone is aware of that fact. Most are also aware that the future is unpredictable.

Butch's past says his teams improve from year to year more than they regress. So, folks thinking that trend will continue, based on ten seasons worth of games, is a perfectly logical conclusion to make.

Yep. I've said before, and I absolutely believe we're not gonna be as bad as some think. I'm not saying we won't lose, but I bet with a bowl we win 10 games.
 
#75
#75
Yep. I've said before, and I absolutely believe we're not gonna be as bad as some think. I'm not saying we won't lose, but I bet with a bowl we win 10 games.

Just because you belive something, doesn't mean it's true. Please list logical reasons, backed by factual evidence that proves without doubt, that we can beat Alabama and Georgia Tech, win the SEC and play in the National Championship Game and why you seem think the Gray uniforms will make the difference.
 
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