I think we are better

[jbr82]

Dude gives thought in his post of honest reasons he thinks we might be better than some expect this season.

And look at the asswipe comment.

You do the same thing when someone gives honest opinions why it won't work. Lol

 

[CountVolcula]

I think some on VN are sitting in the pumpkin patch waiting on the Great Pumpkin

 

[Dudleys87]

What are you adding to the conversation here? Why don't you state what point it is you're trying to make?

The guy states an opinion about the team and your response is "believing something doesn't make it true?"

I think everyone is aware of that fact. Most are also aware that the future is unpredictable.

Butch's past says his teams improve from year to year more than they regress. So, folks thinking that trend will continue, based on ten seasons worth of games, is a perfectly logical conclusion to make.

His teams have improved year after year that's true.
Has he ever lost the following and maintained:
4 yr starter at QB
3 leading rushers
Arguably his best WR
The all time sack leader at UT from both ends
His signal caller at MLB I get it Kirkland is the future but his inexperience showed
And arguably the best cover corner Tennessee had in a up and down back end

So isn't it logical to say he will fall back a considerable amount based on what we do know at this point?

 

[UpstateVol613]

I am one of the people with orange tinted glasses, I see us being better next year.


1. We got rid of two cancers that were affecting the locker room and we expect Butch learned a coaching lesson or two in the process.

2. We had the worst string of injuries I have ever seen on any kind of team. We lost virtually all our DTs including O'Brien and Bain, so we could not stop the run. As bad as that was, and contributed to two bad losses, we had backups get reps that will help this year. I doubt we see the injury bug hit us as hard this year.

3. The offensive line will be much better this year, with experience, less injuries and maybe one freshman contributor. I believe we redshirted two or three last year. First time in 4 years we will have real depth.

4. In Butch's first 4 years we had some 4 star recruits that did not contribute, and we started with a bare cupboard. So we have had no depth, anywhere. We will this year, everywhere.

5. Though we lost Dobbs the great playmaker we also lost Dobbs the guy who could not hit someone who was open 10 yards away. Yeah, he was great, yeah he is a great ambassador for UT, and yes he got better. But with our better offensive line and the better passing talent of either Dormady or Guarantano we will be okay at QB.

6. I really believe our RB situation will be better. Yes we will miss Kamara, but not having the Hurd distraction will make this position a net break even or plus over the year.

7. The staff has been upgraded materially. If we get good coaching at DB then we will see a marked improvement in defense.

8. This recruiting class is better than many believe. Yes, I know Butch can't get out of his own way for his Butchism's like "we are recruiting 5 star hearts", but there is a lot of truth in what he says. And despite the two bad losses last year he is getting better as a coach.

Those are my orange tinted opinions/facts and I will stick with them until proven otherwise.

First off I like how you just didn't make an emotional statement. You stated your opinion and then actually gave reasons for your opinion. Not just the typical "Butch is the worst coach in the history of football"

1. The cancer thing remains to be seen. I do tend to agree Butch coaching was better then the prior year when we blew all those big leads at the end of games.

2. I tend to agree. I have never seen a team get as injured as last year in the history of me watching football. By the end of last season we had no DT's and were forced to put Kongbo at that position. This resulted in us giving up a mile on the ground to Missouri Vandy and Nebraska.

3. The offensive line will be much better this year with Mahoney gone. His contact is up in a month or so be he should have been canned a looooong time ago. Easily one of the worst position coaches for a long time.

4. We should have had depth this year if not for historical injuries.

5. I agree completely. Dobb's was a great ambassador for the University and capable of making unbelievable plays but he struggled with accuracy on throws over 7 yards. I think part of the reason he wasn't ever really benched was because of our weak offensive line. They needed his mobility.

6. To be seen. Up for debate.

7. Agreed. I think DeBord and Martinez being gone are good things. Hey Martinez stunk back in the Georgia days too. I would like to see Butch add an ace recruiter like a Tosh Lupoi type.

8. We will know in 2-3 years. Do wish Butch would stop with the one-liners.

 

[Behr]

You do the same thing when someone gives honest opinions why it won't work. Lol

Couldn't figure out how to twist it, so you lie.

 

[Dudleys87]

Who is the one saying believing something makes it true? Who is it you think is unaware of that fact? You somehow seem to be making the case that everyone's beliefs are false except yours, because you seem to perceive yours are based more in reality than everyone else's.

I'm not suggesting inexperience is a positive. I just don't think this team has as many holes as some suggest.

How do they not?
QB is a ?
OL is still a mess
DL is full of ?
Back end is a mess the only sure fires are WR and RB

As for our SEC record the past four years. Butch has improved in the SEC more than not, just as I said. The trend, although not significant enough to please many of us, is upward. Not downward.

I thought Butch was 4-4 for the 2nd season?

Butch has also shown he's capable of beating the top coaches in the east. He just has to prevent the slip-ups against lesser opponents. That's not a talent issue.

This isn't saying much and nothing to pound his chest about.

....

 

[Remy]

This is the best sentence I've read in a long while on VN. "I just don't think this team has as many holes as some suggest."

It is reasonable, considered, and one in which I find myself in total agreement.

 

[Vol4ever]

I think success this season is on Bob Shoops shoulders. He is the key IMO

 

[Freak]

Not everyone's but what DoubleD was postulating, is purely based on feeling, and he even said as much. Yes, I do think that when it comes to football, basing your belief/opinion, on the evidence you have on hand (past seasons, recruiting, coaching hires) is based in reality, then basing your opinion on vague "feelings". Hence, why I stated that believing something to be true, didn't make it true.

We aren't talking about a feeling.. like indigestion. People make predictions on what they've seen. They make predictions about the future. The OP said he likes the depth. Likes the quality of player Butch has recruited. He thinks we have an identity now with the type of players we've recruited the past four years.

I'm not saying I completely agree with him, but you're still suggesting any opinions that don't jive with your interpretation of what you've seen somehow make them less plausible. Possibility vs probability, as you put it.

History would disagree with you. When a team loses as many starters as we did at the end of the season, the outlook for the next season is not very good. I would argue that it's worse for us because at some positions, we are replacing highly skilled players with significantly less-skilled players.

If the outlook for losing starters isn't good, what was the outlook for a team that loses record numbers of key players in a single season? Losing player is losing players, right? Or do you just have a feeling it's more detrimental when they graduate? I might argue that injuries during the season have a bigger impact.

The fact is that butch managed to win 5 SEC games in 2015, and only managed 4 in 2016. I guess you can argue that one down year doesn't make a trend, but the sampling is only 4 seasons, so you kind of have to take it at face value.

Correct. I don't believe one season in ten constitutes a trend.

He's also shown that he can get out-coached by Derek Mason and Will Muschamp (again). Losing to those two teams just makes it significantly less probable that in 2017, he's going to be able to take a less-talented, less-experienced team, and win more SEC games.

Again is it a "feeling" that losing to Muschamp and Mason has a bigger impact on next season than beating Smart and McElwain? I think the coach vs coach debate could be argued numerous ways.

 

[TNJOKER]

What are you adding to the conversation here? Why don't you state what point it is you're trying to make?

The guy states an opinion about the team and your response is "believing something doesn't make it true?"

I think everyone is aware of that fact. Most are also aware that the future is unpredictable.

Butch's past says his teams improve from year to year more than they regress. So, folks thinking that trend will continue, based on ten seasons worth of games, is a perfectly logical conclusion to make.

Makes sense. Last season had to be just a freak (no pun intended) accident. One of the guys at work is a major bamrr fan and Everytime a volunteer fab brings up the injuries he claims it's just another excuse for being trash.

I have never in my life heard of a team having 20 injuries and going 9-4. Tennessee would have been easily 10-2 possibly 11-1.. bammer is the only thing I personally would question.

 

[wildorange]

1. Two cancers in the locker room are gone.

2. Injuries in 2016, worst ever.

3. No DT left at end of season.

4. Redshirted Linemen in 2016 that can play in 2017.

5. Returning OL is more experienced and deeper (lost 1).

6. Coaching changes were made OC, DB, S&C.

7. Two highly rated QBs will compete for starter.

Now you can argue that some of these things may turn out better or worse in 2017, but those are facts about the what we faced in 2016 or what will be different in 2017.

1. No doubt fact
2. Absolutely did effect us, not a excuse for usc or vandy but it still had a huge effect on the entire season. But #1 hurt us in the usc game, the Hurd effect was in full force. It should have never gotten that far, I'm all for Butch but I think this was his worse move, he should have never catered to Hurd and I think we would have been better if he had moved on before the season started.
3. Hopefully we will have less injury upfront and we did address the DT depth in this class.
4. O-Line should be very good, no excuses for Mahoney if he is still here. This OL has to produce.
5. Again if the O-line stuggles this year Mahoney is not the answer.
6. I actually like all the changes. I think Scott is going to be a very good OC, and I am really excited about our new DB coach. The S@C coach is going to do well here, again I really like this hire. I expect JG to win the QB battle, but we will have a good backup. I think both are better passers than Dobbs overall, but time will tell if I am right or not. GBO!!!!!

 

[RDU VOL#14]

Hell yeah Freak bringing it tonight!! So tired of people on here that would rather see Butch lose and be right, than see him win and be wrong. Some of you guys make it seem like it's a forgone conclusion that he will fail, and can't wait to back up your argument.

 

[JFBanicki]

Yes we may have more depth, but sadly the depth isn't of a high quality and now we are starting players that weren't very good as depth players last year. Sadly I can see a losing record next year, which would cause recruiting to slip even more, basically meaning we would be right back to where we were when he got here.

Hopefully this team will surprise me. Maybe the coaching staff will do what its never done under CBJ and actually perform better than expectations. Maybe Butch will put as much effort into coaching as he does creating championships his teams win when they are losing on the field.

 

[Freak]

His teams have improved year after year that's true.
Has he ever lost the following and maintained:
4 yr starter at QB
3 leading rushers
Arguably his best WR
The all time sack leader at UT from both ends
His signal caller at MLB I get it Kirkland is the future but his inexperience showed
And arguably the best cover corner Tennessee had in a up and down back end

So isn't it logical to say he will fall back a considerable amount based on what we do know at this point?

Has he ever lost record number of players due to injuries during the season?

I like Kelly and what I've seen from Tennessee's young backs. Hurd was unproductive last season and Kamara really didn't get an extraordinary number of carries.

Josh will be impossible to replace. We'll miss him more than most are willing to admit, but I'm confident we have two talented guys that are capable.

Malone struggled his entire career until it finally clicked for him last season. I think it's possible that someone else can step into that role -- Latrell Williams, Callaway, Tyler Byrd, Jennings, Brandon Johnson, Jeff George. I think there's lots of talent at wide receiver. If we find a quarterback, more than one of these guys will emerge, imo.

Look at the injuries we had at linebacker last year. I like our chances will a full spring and fall to prepare. Kirkland will be more experienced. I really like Bituli's potential. We have some holes, but Colton Jumper is back. He played a lot last year.

How much did Sutton play last year? We effectively lost him for the year.

 

[Dudleys87]

Hell yeah Freak bringing it tonight!! So tired of people on here that would rather see Butch lose and be right, than see him win and be wrong. Some of you guys make it seem like it's a forgone conclusion that he will fail, and can't wait to back up your argument.

For the record I'd like to see Butch win a lot of games nxt year and take Bama down to the last 2:00.

That said I know better than to say that and set myself up for disappointment knowing the pieces aren't there for him to win more than 7 games.

 

[TNJOKER]

For the record I'd like to see Butch win a lot of games nxt year and take Bama down to the last 2:00.

That said I know better than to say that and set myself up for disappointment knowing the pieces aren't there for him to win more than 7 games.

The pieces are there if placed strategically.. I am not saying we are gonna win a NC or nothing.. but. For the last decade the program has been down..


the ad position should have already been filled of as of 3 months ago.

 

[Freak]

Yes we may have more depth, but sadly the depth isn't of a high quality and now we are starting players that weren't very good as depth players last year. Sadly I can see a losing record next year, which would cause recruiting to slip even more, basically meaning we would be right back to where we were when he got here.

Hopefully this team will surprise me. Maybe the coaching staff will do what its never done under CBJ and actually perform better than expectations. Maybe Butch will put as much effort into coaching as he does creating championships his teams win when they are losing on the field.

Not quality depth? Wasn't the 2014 class ranked 7th and the 2015 class ranked 4th according to 247?

I think there's lots of talent on our roster.

 

[Dudleys87]

Has he ever lost record number of players due to injuries during the season?

I like Kelly and what I've seen from Tennessee's young backs. Hurd was unproductive last season and Kamara really didn't get an extraordinary number of carries.

Josh will be impossible to replace. We'll miss him more than most are willing to admit, but I'm confident we have two talented guys that are capable.

Malone struggled his entire career until it finally clicked for him last season. I think it's possible that someone else can step into that role -- Latrell Williams, Callaway, Tyler Byrd, Jennings, Brandon Johnson, Jeff George. I think there's lots of talent at wide receiver. If we find a quarterback, more than one of these guys will emerge, imo.

Look at the injuries we had at linebacker last year. I like our chances will a full spring and fall to prepare. Kirkland will be more experienced. I really like Bituli's potential. We have some holes, but Colton Jumper is back. He played a lot last year.

How much did Sutton play last year? We effectively lost him for the year.

Kelly and Chandler and the next big duo to come out of Tennessee IMO. We will probably see one transfer

My biggest fear and y'all can agree or not is how good did josh make the line look. I feel like he made them look a hell of a lot better than they ever will be. This isnt good for a green QB.

I'm convinced that Malone did just enough to get by until this past season. No other reason for it to just happen the way it did. That said Tennessee is in good hands there.

LB got hit pretty hard much like DT
I like the potential there but again they have to learn on the fly. Hope Bruzza turns into a LB it fits the name

Your right Sutton went down and it went to hell almost immediately after guys looked lost and confused. Martin quit during the Florida game and that's inexcusable. If Gaulden gets his head right he could be special

 

[Dudleys87]

The pieces are there if placed strategically.. I am not saying we are gonna win a NC or nothing.. but. For the last decade the program has been down..


the ad position should have already been filled of as of 3 months ago.

It has been down that's without question and Butch has done a hell of a job fixing what's broken and getting talent to Tennessee but like I said there's not enough there to get 8+ wins

The AD situation is a complete disaster and the upper admins are directly at fault for dragging feet when the choice or choices have been obvious

 

[BeardedVol]

We aren't talking about a feeling.. like indigestion. People make predictions on what they've seen. They make predictions about the future. The OP said he likes the depth. Likes the quality of player Butch has recruited. He thinks we have an identity now with the type of players we've recruited the past four years.

Let's review OP's post because, none of it sounds anything like what you've stated above.

I think we are a lot better off then a lot of you guys. We are inexperienced at key positions.. true, but we are deep with inexperience. We can rotate inexperience all day long now. These guys are football guys, they eat, breath, and bath in it. We have three deep at every position. All filling a roll. We have an identity now. A passing nfl attack with speedsters everywhere, huge ass tight ends, and a significant deep threat. Every position is filled with guys that are being brought up the tennessee way and won't quit. I'm in until proven false.​

That's pure, unadulterated orange conjecture, and while admirable in it's enthusiasm, states no basis on anything remotely factual or evidenced by the last 4 seasons.

I'm not saying I completely agree with him, but you're still suggesting any opinions that don't jive with your interpretation of what you've seen somehow make them less plausible. Possibility vs probability, as you put it.

Yes. Basing your predictions/opinions/beliefs on empirical evidence as has been shown in 4 seasons of football, recruiting classes, and coaching hires, is more relevant them feeling that next year is our year because of "reasons". The same goes for what is possible and probable. Hell, one can argue that anything is possible, but given what we have seen, you can't argue that just anything is probable.

If the outlook for losing starters isn't good, what was the outlook for a team that loses record numbers of key players in a single season? Losing player is losing players, right? Or do you just have a feeling it's more detrimental when they graduate? I might argue that injuries during the season have a bigger impact.

So you are taking the position that our losses on defense, somehow affected the complete offensive meltdowns that we experienced in the USCe and Vandy games? Or are you taking the position that USCe and Vandy fielded more talent on their offense than we fielded on defense?

Correct. I don't believe one season in ten constitutes a trend.

Why is Butch's record in lower tier conferences relevant to his production in the SEC? I can understand the argument for hiring him, he was coaching at that level, and you don't have much else to go on, but he's starting year five here, and we have plenty of film to judge him on. Unless, you are equating coaching in the SEC to coaching in the AAC and the MAC, which I think even Butch would disagree with you on that one.

Again is it a "feeling" that losing to Muschamp and Mason has a bigger impact on next season than beating Smart and McElwain? I think the coach vs coach debate could be argued numerous ways.

I didn't have a "feeling" that Butch lost to Muschamp. Muschamp has beaten butch at every meeting, with good talent at Florida, with mediocre talent at Florida, and with poor talent at USCe. That's not a feeling at this point, that's just painful history. As far as Smart and McElwain go, congrats to Butch he's 1-1 against Jim Bob Butterteeth, and he beat Smart in his first year as a head coach in a last ditch hail Mary.

Considering that in a year that we beat Florida and Georgia, and still didn't make it to the SECCG, and are reliving those two wins, says a lot about how the season played out.

 

[Dudleys87]

Not quality depth? Wasn't the 2014 class ranked 7th and the 2015 class ranked 4th according to 247?

I think there's lots of talent on our roster.

Highly ranked yes but look at attrition, injuries, and inconsistency.

No doubt if Tuttle and Phillips are healthy they are leathal but they have been bitten by injuries

But yes talent is a plenty

 

[Bauce]

I think we are a lot better off then a lot of you guys. We are inexperienced at key positions.. true, but we are deep with inexperience. We can rotate inexperience all day long now. These guys are football guys, they eat, breath, and bath in it. We have three deep at every position. All filling a roll. We have an identity now. A passing nfl attack with speedsters everywhere, huge ass tight ends, and a significant deep threat. Every position is filled with guys that are being brought up the tennessee way and won't quit. I'm in until proven false.

Unfortunately, this was said last year and the year after that...

 

[Freak]

Kelly and Chandler and the next big duo to come out of Tennessee IMO. We will probably see one transfer

My biggest fear and y'all can agree or not is how good did josh make the line look. I feel like he made them look a hell of a lot better than they ever will be. This isnt good for a green QB.

I'm convinced that Malone did just enough to get by until this past season. No other reason for it to just happen the way it did. That said Tennessee is in good hands there.

LB got hit pretty hard much like DT
I like the potential there but again they have to learn on the fly. Hope Bruzza turns into a LB it fits the name

Your right Sutton went down and it went to hell almost immediately after guys looked lost and confused. Martin quit during the Florida game and that's inexcusable. If Gaulden gets his head right he could be special

Why would you see one of our backs transfer? There's no reason to suggest that. Or is that a "with our luck" comment?

I agree about Dobbs. We'll find out about our line for sure.

I don't think Malone did just enough to get by. Sometimes it just takes a couple years in the program for guys to hit their stride. You hope a five-star catches on earlier, but I it's not all that uncommon.

As for Sutton, that goes back to a point I was making before. I'd rather lose a guy to graduation where I have spring and fall practice with a guy getting first-team reps to prepare, rather than lose the guy early in the season who had been getting all the reps. JMO.

 

[BeardedVol]

Hell yeah Freak bringing it tonight!! So tired of people on here that would rather see Butch lose and be right, than see him win and be wrong. Some of you guys make it seem like it's a forgone conclusion that he will fail, and can't wait to back up your argument.

Wanting Butch to lose, and acknowledging the probability that he will not see much more success in the SEC, is not the same thing.

 

[Dudleys87]

Why would you see one of our backs transfer? There's no reason to suggest that. Or is that a "with our luck" comment?

I agree about Dobbs. We'll find out about our line for sure.

I don't think Malone did just enough to get by. Sometimes it just takes a couple years in the program for guys to hit their stride. You hope a five-star catches on earlier, but I it's not all that uncommon.

As for Sutton, that goes back to a point I was making before. I'd rather lose a guy to graduation where I have spring and fall practice with a guy getting first-team reps to prepare, rather than lose the guy early in the season who had been getting all the reps. JMO.

If Kelly continues to dominate and Chandler pans out we're bound to see one leave

The lines need to step up in a big way if we want to have a good year

Maybe that was poorly worded it just seemed odd that he suddenly hit and then leaves. Thanks for the explanation about Malone it never really occurred to me.

Hurt or otherwise someone has big shoes to fill and I didn't see anyone that could yet jmo.