SEC Coaching Grades

#152
#152
GAVol said:
The point is to win while you have the job; not have done of your recruits win a title 2 years after you're fired. Butch may have a couple of recent bad losses, but Zook never won 9 or a conference title in his life.
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Still a parallel. By definition, a parallel isn't the same in degree but similar in pattern.

Jones and Zook both built championship rosters. Both failed to win Championships. Neither had a good SEC record. It is possibly relevant that UF fired Zook rather than tolerate mediocrity even though everyone acknowledged the recruiting job he'd done. Jones is still employed... and many bristle even at the notion that he should be on a hot seat headed into 2017.

That's the difference between wishing for a championship program and demanding one.

If the UF contributors here are right, there's even some loud voices against McElwain right now simply because they don't think he's recruiting well enough to take UF from winning the East in his first two years to winning the SEC and beating Bama.

I simply don't believe UT fans should have lower expectations of the Vols than UF fans have of the Gators. Do you?
 
#153
#153
johnrlansford said:
fFreeze lost to Vandy this year too 38-17? Are you serious that Stupid? And he is about to get blown up by the NCAA< I wouldn't take Freeze over Butch anyday.
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Really? Stupid? Classy.

Did he lose to them in a year when he was expected to compete for a championship... or in a down year? Did he lose to them AND someone comparable to USCe?

They may get "blown up" but that talk has been going on for how long now?

Freeze is a much better coach on game day. That's simply undeniable based on their results.
 
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#155
#155
chargervol said:
I believe last year was close on 'star power' (slight advantage us)but we had the edge because of experience.
But season before last, I don't believe so. We were not picked to win the east, were not the most experienced and slightly under on full roster rankings.
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I wouldn't argue you with you too hard. The one thing I would point out about '15 is that UF was depleted as well with a brand new coach while UGA was a mess all the way round.
 
#156
#156
johnrlansford said:
He had the best roster from Starting Line up perspective but not from a depth prespective. That showed on the field and can't be argued. It is fact!!!
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And if it were a one year problem, I'd say "It happens". It isn't. UT's competitiveness and depth have been hurt 3 years running by excessive injuries. Jones realized the problem, said they'd done a study.... and didn't find an actionable cause. Just lately has he recognized a need to make wholesale changes in the S&C staff.

That... is a fact... and THAT is a measure of a HC's effectiveness.
 
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#157
#157
sjt18 said:
Really? Stupid? Classy.

Did he lose to them in a year when he was expected to compete for a championship... or in a down year? Did he lose to them AND someone comparable to USCe?

They may get "blown up" but that talk has been going on for how long now?

Freeze is a much better coach on game day. That's simply undeniable based on their results.
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Ole Miss was preseason #11 last year, 2 spots behind UT.
 
#158
#158
sjt18 said:
Really? Stupid? Classy.

Did he lose to them in a year when he was expected to compete for a championship... or in a down year? Did he lose to them AND someone comparable to USCe?

They may get "blown up" but that talk has been going on for how long now?

Freeze is a much better coach on game day. That's simply undeniable based on their results.
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They were picked in the Top 15 preseason, this wasn't a down year for Ole Miss,

Yes they had 2 bad losses, They also lost to Mississippi State 55-20 and Vandy 38-17 both finished 6-7 so did USCe? So how is that any different?

He had a lot more talent on his teams that beat Alabama then Butch had this year.

Butch will be at Tennessee as long or longer than Freeze is at Ole Miss.
 
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#159
#159
BigOrangeMojo said:
To answer your questions....

Freeze had a blowout loss to the same Vandy team last year, a blowout loss to a team that was 4-7 at the time (Mississippi State) and a blowout loss to Memphis in 2015.

Freeze had definitely turned Ole Miss into something other than bottom feeders, which they've been for the better part of the last 45 years. Freeze has much better wins than Butch and he has recruited at a pace that has never been seen before in Oxford. You are correct about that.

At the end of the day, will Freeze be able to overcome all of the cheating that he has done or has Ole Miss began their journey back to the basement? The wheels fell off for Ole Miss this year and they are currently 71st in recruiting. Will Freeze be able to recruit with all the additional scrutiny on him? Those questions remain to be answered.
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Good points. Thanks for the correction and tone.

I still believe Freeze has done more with less but if there's a lesson to be learned from his 71st ranked recruiting class and recent fall off... would it not be that you can't wait for patterns and trends to hurt the program before doing something? If he's in a position that he cannot recover from (and he may be) then wouldn't that be instructive for UT's situation?
 
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#160
#160
sjt18 said:
And if it were a one year problem, I'd say "It happens". It isn't. UT's competitiveness and depth have been hurt 3 years running by excessive injuries. Jones realized the problem, said they'd done a study.... and didn't find an actionable cause. Just lately has he recognized a need to make wholesale changes in the S&C staff.

That... is a fact... and THAT is a measure of a HC's effectiveness.
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So Freeze beat Alabama 2 years in a row and still lost the SECW that is just as bad as UT. To beat Bama and still not win the SECw that is pathetic.
 
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#162
#162
johnrlansford said:
He had the best roster from Starting Line up perspective but not from a depth prespective. That showed on the field and can't be argued. It is fact!!!
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And after 4 full recruiting classes, who's responsible for that? Let me guess......Quinten Dormady?
 
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#163
#163
sjt18 said:
Still a parallel. By definition, a parallel isn't the same in degree but similar in pattern.

Jones and Zook both built championship rosters. Both failed to win Championships. Neither had a good SEC record. It is possibly relevant that UF fired Zook rather than tolerate mediocrity even though everyone acknowledged the recruiting job he'd done. Jones is still employed... and many bristle even at the notion that he should be on a hot seat headed into 2017.

That's the difference between wishing for a championship program and demanding one.

If the UF contributors here are right, there's even some loud voices against McElwain right now simply because they don't think he's recruiting well enough to take UF from winning the East in his first two years to winning the SEC and beating Bama.

I simply don't believe UT fans should have lower expectations of the Vols than UF fans have of the Gators. Do you?
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Solid post, and you're absolutely correct.

Unless McElwain salvages a decent class and wins the East again, expect the heat to get turned up big time. He's barely an average recruiter, and the gap between UF and FSU is growing.

Zook was as good as fired the day UF hired him...not his fault, but he took the job under more scrutiny and opposition than Jones faced simply because Zook was following a legend. Jones, not so much.
 
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#164
#164
johnrlansford said:
So Freeze beat Alabama 2 years in a row and still lost the SECW that is just as bad as UT. To beat Bama and still not win the SECw that is pathetic.
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Yeah... that seems "reasonable". Jones has lost to Bama 4 straight years by an average score of 37-14 but Freeze is "pathetic" having inherited a similar situation at Ole Miss (minus the facilities and winning tradition) as the one Jones inherited at UT... and posting two wins over Bama.

Add to that... Jones lost to Vandy and USCe to blow the East this year.

And you really want to call someone else "stupid"?
 
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#165
#165
sjt18 said:
Good points. Thanks for the correction and tone.

I still believe Freeze has done more with less but if there's a lesson to be learned from his 71st ranked recruiting class and recent fall off... would it not be that you can't wait for patterns and trends to hurt the program before doing something? If he's in a position that he cannot recover from (and he may be) then wouldn't that be instructive for UT's situation?
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The lesson to be learned is "If you beat Alabama and everyone thinks you are cheating, you better have all your ducks in a row." If not, the NCAA will make your life a living hell. I think the NCAA would also love to get him back from his role in the inspirational story of how to legally screw the NCAA (The Blind Side).

Regarding patterns, you should obviously learn from patterns. The question is "What's the appropriate time to do something". From Dooley's tenure, it was obvious pretty early on, that there was very little positive to counter against all of the negative patterns that were arising throughout the program. With Butch, there's some positives to counter against the last 5 games of the 2016 regular season plus a decrease in the amount of high end talent this recruiting cycle. With the instability at top of the administration, I don't think it was quite time to pull the plug after 2016, especially since the pattern wasn't as extensive as it was with Dooley. Elite coaching talent won't go to a place where they don't know who their boss is.
 
#166
#166
johnrlansford said:
They were picked in the Top 15 preseason, this wasn't a down year for Ole Miss,

Yes they had 2 bad losses, They also lost to Mississippi State 55-20 and Vandy 38-17 both finished 6-7 so did USCe? So how is that any different?

.
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Interesting that you cannot see Jones' patterns and fault lines... but see Freeze's so clearly... in spite of Freeze having more success.
 
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#168
#168
sjt18 said:
Interesting that you cannot see Jones' patterns and fault lines... but see Freeze's so clearly... in spite of Freeze having more success.
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It's interesting to me that you asked him for that information and now you're using it against him.
 
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#169
#169
sjt18 said:
:lolabove: Wow.



Maybe. But what would that prove if Ole Miss fired a coach that HAD beaten Saban AND had more success than a coach that UT kept?
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You believe that Freeze not winning the SECw after beating Alabama is less of a knock than Butch losing the SECe. And yes Ole Miss had more talent than Tennessee did those years.
 
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#170
#170
sjt18 said:
Interesting that you cannot see Jones' patterns and fault lines... but see Freeze's so clearly... in spite of Freeze having more success.
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I am not failing to see any of Butch's flaws but I am also not going to put Freeze on a mountain that he doesn't belong on!!!
 
#171
#171
Anyone bother to note that CBJ's B+ rating is for his entire tenure as a head coach?
Nine years. He's been at Tennessee since 2013 (4 seasons for the arithmetically challenged).
 
#172
#172
Anyone figure out that Lucifer only needs/has one vessel? Nicky's success at Bama has been/is influenced by the Indwelling?
 
#173
#173
Tin Man said:
Anyone bother to note that CBJ's B+ rating is for his entire tenure as a head coach?
Nine years. He's been at Tennessee since 2013 (4 seasons for the arithmetically challenged).
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I think the grade was for the 2016 season only, people are getting too worked up over the B+
 
#174
#174
ice said:
Because of my limited knowledge of the game. All I know is BJ has taken us from a dumpster fire to winning some big games against quality opponents.
We beat Fla. and Georgia, and year before last we played Alabama to a five point game. Injuries can be devastating to a team that does not have a lot of depth. In 2016 our defense was decimated. plus one player causing problems for our team.
I will always wonder how good we would have been without all those injuries.
Jones has been recruiting some good players. When we build depth, I think Jones can take us near the top.
I have not given up on Butch Jones yet.
He is energetic, loves Tennessee, and wants to win. I wish him and our program much success in the years ahead.
My gut feeling right now C+. Hoping for a B or B+ in 2017.
Why only a C+?. Because the Vandy and SCe losses really hurt my ass.
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