I think some of you seriously misunderstand Butch

#77
#77
One myth that really needs to be dispelled is that a coach can "idle"... that Jones can somehow maintain as a 7-8 win per season coach. He got to 8 wins plus bowl wins on the strength of some really good recruiting classes. Those guys bought into his explicit or implicit promise that they were going to be the group that restored UT to where it belonged. Four years later... it didn't happen and the promise simply doesn't work any more. So far, UT's class this year is a reflection of this. Jones isn't viewed as an up and comer in the SEC by the most important group there is.... elite recruits.

The level of talent he appears to be getting now is the kind that builds 7 or 8 win teams in the SEC.... IF they don't leave wins on the field... as Jones has consistently done.

Bottom line. Jones cannot tread water because talent won't allow it. Jones hasn't shown what recruits want to see.... and this is before you factor in Hurd and PWms walking away from the program or the numbers of UT players that have suffered serious injuries or had their careers ended by injury.
 
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#78
#78
macrovol said:
You must be part of the instant gratification generation. Sorry, but you will never be happy. I pity you.
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4 years and nothing to show for it. When the biggest argument is that he's better than Dooley, that means expectations are nothing.
We expected 1 division title in 4 years. Lyle has failed. If you can't see the massive problems with the program, then idk what to tell you.
 
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#79
#79
sjt18 said:
One myth that really needs to be dispelled is that a coach can "idle"... that Jones can somehow maintain as a 7-8 win per season coach. He got to 8 wins plus bowl wins on the strength of some really good recruiting classes. Those guys bought into his explicit or implicit promise that they were going to be the group that restored UT to where it belonged. Four years later... it didn't happen and the promise simply doesn't work any more. So far, UT's class this year is a reflection of this. Jones isn't viewed as an up and comer in the SEC by the most important group there is.... elite recruits.

The level of talent he appears to be getting now is the kind that builds 7 or 8 win teams in the SEC.... IF they don't leave wins on the field... as Jones has consistently done.

Bottom line. Jones cannot tread water because talent won't allow it. Jones hasn't shown what recruits want to see.... and this is before you factor in Hurd and PWms walking away from the program or the numbers of UT players that have suffered serious injuries or had their careers ended by injury.
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You're either getting better, or you're getting worse. I hope we fire Lyle before were back in Dooley land.
 
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#80
#80
Sandman 423 said:
Hey Count!!! Lets look at a fair comparison....


2013-2016+------------------------2008-2012
1-3 vs Florida---------------------- 0-4 vs Florida

2-2 vs Georgia----------------------1-3 vs Georgia

0-4 vs Bama------------------------0-4 vs Bama

0-4 vs rest of West division--------1-6 vs rest of West

14-18 SEC record------------------ 8-22 SEC record

3-0 in bowls------------------------0-2 in bowls


The writing is on the wall. Tennessee is moving in the right direction.
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Your goal is just being better than the worst coach ever at Tennessee? Way to set the bar high.
 
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#81
#81
Wylo said:
Your goal is just being better than the worst coach ever at Tennessee? Way to set the bar high.
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Looking back.... UT was worse during a couple of periods. The last one was the late 70's. But your point is well made.
 
#82
#82
macrovol said:
You must be part of the instant gratification generation. Sorry, but you will never be happy. I pity you.
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Good God, wanting to see results in the 4th year of a coaches tenure, with the most talented and experienced team he has ever coached, is wanting instant gratification?

In your opinion how many seasons should CBJ get before he is held to higher expectations? Six, eight, ten?
 
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#83
#83
volfannbama said:
The main issue here is that there is no middle ground, either you are a sunshine punter telling everyone to shut up and color or your are negavol that wants Butch fired.
Just because you are always thinking positive doesn't mean you are always right. Most reasonable people can be happy about the wins and things CBJ has done with the program and can also express the opinion of doubt that he will take the vols any further, while providing logical thinking to back it up. And they should be able to do so without begin called silly, stupid, and having their character and fanhood questioned.
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Sunshine punter, beautiful! That needs to go in the VN archives right next to valid victorian. Well done!
 
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#84
#84
Wylo said:
Your goal is just being better than the worst coach ever at Tennessee? Way to set the bar high.
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:finger3:where did I say that was my goal? I simply showed what UT has done in the 4 years Count posted vs the previous 4 years.


When Dooley was fired it was common thought here that it would take 10 years to get back to Relevance. We are getting there faster than that. Why fire the head coach and start over now?
 
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#85
#85
Sandman 423 said:
:finger3:where did I say that was my goal? I simply showed what UT has done in the 4 years Count posted vs the previous 4 years.


When Dooley was fired it was common thought here that it would take 10 years to get back to Relevance. We are getting there faster than that. Why fire the head coach and start over now?
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I don't know anyone that thought it would take 10 years. With the right hire it shouldn't take 4. Butch has done an admirable job at the rebuild, which is why this season is so disappointing. We saw the potential last year, and it was confirmed this year. But his inability on gameday to get over the hump is telling. It's who he is...and I had people in Cincinnati warn me it would be like this. They couldn't believe we hired him.
 
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#86
#86
sjt18 said:
And THIS is the MOST illegitimate rationale for excusing Jones of all. If your standard is "better than Dooley" then we simply don't have the same standard. I believe UT's standard should be championships.... not "better than" a historically bad coach.

He's beaten 3 Big 10 West teams in bowls... in each of those games because a win was left on the field during the regular season UT faced an overmatched opponent.

There have been a lot of "hot messes" that coaches have taken over. Ole Miss was. USCe was and still is. Vandy when Franklin arrived? There's a pretty long list of coaches who overachieved after taking over "messes".

Michigan was a mess which is instructive. They hired, and fired, a couple of coaches before finding one who met their standard. They apparently felt winning provided more stability than keeping the same coach.

There are no excuses for either of those games... and looking at TAM now... UT shouldn't have lost that one either.



And there's another big problem. UT being "decimated" by injuries is not a new problem under Jones. Whether it is recruiting injury prone players, poor development, poor player rotation, practice methods, or something else... Jones has failed to fix a major and persistent problem. In the previous two years, a disproportionate number of injuries occurred during August. This year, there were even more injuries with most coming during the season.

This is not "luck". It is something different that UT is doing compared to other programs.
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Not hiring a S/C coach immediately after having to replace Lawson for whatever reason. How many times did you hear it mentioned on VN this year how bad our OL was performing? It started at Appy St game. We lost Kerbyson and Crowder from team 119 and had developed Jones and Hall and with Richmond coming in there should not have been much of a drop-off in performance. Then consider a star DT who missed his senior year in HS and still waited until june to enroll and came in at least 40 lbs. overweight and way out of playing shape.
This is all very telling and the root of UT's problem. The players are not in shape, they are not motivated enough for whatever reason and they get blown off the ball on both sides at the line of scrimmage. We pay a HC a good salary IMO to notice these things or at least he and some assistants to take note and make changes. This lack of conditioning up front is what started the whole Hurd debacle and I'm certain it was a major contributor to the many injuries UT sustained. I hope I answered your question but realize this is just my opinion.
 
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#89
#89
'Boro-vol said:
I don't know anyone that thought it would take 10 years. With the right hire it shouldn't take 4. Butch has done an admirable job at the rebuild, which is why this season is so disappointing. We saw the potential last year, and it was confirmed this year. But his inability on gameday to get over the hump is telling. It's who he is...and I had people in Cincinnati warn me it would be like this. They couldn't believe we hired him.
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All of this.
 
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#90
#90
Sandman 423 said:
:finger3:where did I say that was my goal? I simply showed what UT has done in the 4 years Count posted vs the previous 4 years.


When Dooley was fired it was common thought here that it would take 10 years to get back to Relevance. We are getting there faster than that. Why fire the head coach and start over now?
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If we keep Jones, we will slide back into the Dooley days.
 
#91
#91
'Boro-vol said:
I don't expect National Championships...They are exceedingly tough to come by. I expect to compete for the East more often than not. I really expect for 8-9 wins to be the baseline. I mostly expect to beat teams we're supposed to beat, and put a scare in those we're not. I expect to occasionally win one when we are an underdog. And I really expect to compete, hard, with teams we identify as traditional rivals.

I don't expect miracles...I expect to be who we have traditionally been. I want to be respected and in the conversation as a traditional power again.
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I'd like to be where we were when our defense went unscored on. FEARED!

And I do believe we can get there. We just have to get rid of the hoodoo coaches, hire the right coaches, stir in good alchemy between the new coaches and players, and conjure up a few lines of voodoo.

But yeah, we can win another natty.
 
#92
#92
Orangedogsrule said:
I'd like to be where we were when our defense went unscored on. FEARED!

And I do believe we can get there. We just have to get rid of the hoodoo coaches, hire the right coaches, stir in good alchemy between the new coaches and players, and conjure up a few lines of voodoo.

But yeah, we can win another natty.
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I don't doubt we can...And should. My answer was to those that think wanting more is unreasonable. My legitimate expectations are not unrealistic.
 
#94
#94
onevol74 said:
I think this is the report card on Butch. It is about the results. You can not say this program is competitive in the SEC when you are 0-8 against the West. In 2017 UGA, Florida, LSU, and Bama will be much better teams than this year. Do not see is being better. And if you add in one game where he always slips up in game day coaching we may be looking at 7-5, or 6-6.
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1-3 vs is florida is really bad considering how bad they have been. florida is only going to get better as will georgia. the recruiting is too good there for them not to improve.
 
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#97
#97
'Boro-vol said:
I don't know anyone that thought it would take 10 years. With the right hire it shouldn't take 4. Butch has done an admirable job at the rebuild, which is why this season is so disappointing. We saw the potential last year, and it was confirmed this year. But his inability on gameday to get over the hump is telling. It's who he is...and I had people in Cincinnati warn me it would be like this. They couldn't believe we hired him.
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Got to be kidding.Go back and check if you don't think people were saying ten years. When Strong changed his mind and Jone's name surfaced I posted " Great, we are going to hire the one coach Dooley actually beat". That being said, Ut is moving in the right direction. A little Slower than I would like, but it is moving none the less. That is why I do not believe it is the right time to make a change at the top.
 
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#99
#99
It's so much easier to tear down Coach Jones when he keeps putting his foot in his mouth but the man has IMPROVED the program since he's been here. People delight in tearing him down and while I admit we let 2 SEC east championships slip through our hand, where would we be with Dooley?

I'm just as upset as everyone else, but I will not buy into the fire Butch rhetoric, and pretend the sky is falling because each year we have progressed (except for this year with 2 bad losses) We don't have Saban, we don't have Urban, nor the idiot at Michigan, but what we do have is a man who gives his all for the orange and unlike most of the posters here, I donate 6-7k a year for my seats and tickets and he has my support.

Burn him down and make yourself feel better but let's see what your record would be as the head coach at UT given you're at the helm. EXACTLY.... F'n arm chairs. I played ball at a Div 1 AA school but my 1st love was always UT and will always be UT. As they said in the movie " born on the fourth of july" (also served in dessert storm, panama, and operation freedom) love it or leave it! Rebuttal?
 
#100
#100
Sandman 423 said:
Got to be kidding.Go back and check if you don't think people were saying ten years. When Strong changed his mind and Jone's name surfaced I posted " Great, we are going to hire the one coach Dooley actually beat". That being said, Ut is moving in the right direction. A little Slower than I would like, but it is moving none the less. That is why I do not believe it is the right time to make a change at the top.
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We disagree, but that's OK. I like you anyway
 
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