trump and the popular vote.

#126
#126
Persian Vol said:
You guys are acting as if experience is everything. There takes a bit of background knowledge to be able to do a job correctly. And you can only get this knowledge through college. Are you guys telling me you would rather trust a doctor with no degree who has been practicing for 20 years over a doctor with a degree who just started practicing?
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Poor example, but what's this doctors record? In many, many cases great experience beats basic theory. Of course you went straight to the end.

Do you want someone who has already demonstrated great work in a field for years or someone who has just heard about it?
 
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#127
#127
Persian Vol said:
You guys are acting as if experience is everything. There takes a bit of background knowledge to be able to do a job correctly. And you can only get this knowledge through college. Are you guys telling me you would rather trust a doctor with no degree who has been practicing for 20 years over a doctor with a degree who just started practicing?
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Of course you pick the extreme. But have you ever heard the medical addage "See one, do one, teach one"? Higher education has it's place, no argument. But it is not the be all end all and it shouldn't be required for every professional level job. It is as much about money as it is quality.

So let's take a different path then. Do you think Econ 101 at Harvard is any better than it is at UT? Why?
 
#129
#129
hog88 said:
I had a great uncle who was head of engineering for White Trucks (yep long time ago), kept the position when GM purchased them but was fired when Volvo brought the plant because he didn't have a degree. 30+ years of engineering experience didn't count.
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I have a good friend that had basically the same issue. The company that he worked for got gobbeled up by a much bigger one and they wanted the college "educated" workers only. Stupid on their part, but then again I am sure the managers were all college "educated". The idiocy of it all is that this guy knew things about systems that they didn't and they could have paid him a lot less for his knowledge. Their loss.
 
#130
#130
Persian Vol said:
You guys are acting as if experience is everything. There takes a bit of background knowledge to be able to do a job correctly. And you can only get this knowledge through college. Are you guys telling me you would rather trust a doctor with no degree who has been practicing for 20 years over a doctor with a degree who just started practicing?
Click to expand...

In unicorn land yes.

In my case, I have been running and growing a business for over 20 years without a degree (about 16-20 hours short). I don't think a person with 10 years experience and a business degree would be more qualified.

As I stated in another post, there are professions where I think a college degree in that field is a must but there are many positions that require a degree but aptitude and training would suffice. Many middle management positions didn't require degrees until the Griggs vs Duke Power ruling.
 
#132
#132
Persian Vol said:
It's as if you are assuming that studying engineering is not important to be an engineer.
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No, not at all. He had the aptitude to land a job in that department then the smarts and work ethic to rise to the top of it. He knew more about designing the work flow to build the trucks than a kid out of college or even someone with a few years experience. He learned on the job.
 
#133
#133
tumscalcium said:
Poor example, but what's this doctors record? In many, many cases great experience beats basic theory. Of course you went straight to the end.

Do you want someone who has already demonstrated great work in a field for years or someone who has just heard about it?
Click to expand...

No it's a perfect example. It's an example that absolutely requires an incredible amount of information that can only be taught in school. The fact that you asked what that doctors record was is concerning. Clearly if you have no medical degree and are not licensed to be a doctor, you are not qualified to be a doctor because you simply have not received the education to become a doctor. He can be a doctor for as long as he wants, but he will continue to misdiagnose patients because he simply does not have the proper education.
 
#134
#134
SpaceCoastVol said:
Of course you pick the extreme. But have you ever heard the medical addage "See one, do one, teach one"? Higher education has it's place, no argument. But it is not the be all end all and it shouldn't be required for every professional level job. It is as much about money as it is quality.

So let's take a different path then. Do you think Econ 101 at Harvard is any better than it is at UT? Why?
Click to expand...

What do you mean by better?
 
#135
#135
Persian Vol said:
No it's a perfect example. It's an example that absolutely requires an incredible amount of information that can only be taught in school. The fact that you asked what that doctors record was is concerning. Clearly if you have no medical degree and are not licensed to be a doctor, you are not qualified to be a doctor because you simply have not received the education to become a doctor. He can be a doctor for as long as he wants, but he will continue to misdiagnose patients because he simply does not have the proper education.
Click to expand...

With many of these fields you can't even put your foot in the door without a degree. Your example is poor because you can't be practicing medicine without licensing so yes, it's irrelevant.

Try again with relevant fields.
 
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#136
#136
SpaceCoastVol said:
I have a good friend that had basically the same issue. The company that he worked for got gobbeled up by a much bigger one and they wanted the college "educated" workers only. Stupid on their part, but then again I am sure the managers were all college "educated". The idiocy of it all is that this guy knew things about systems that they didn't and they could have paid him a lot less for his knowledge. Their loss.
Click to expand...

My brother works for PepsiCo as a ____ manager (don't exactly know what his title is, #2 man at the plant) and he is as high as he can go without his degree. He has had to train his last 3 bosses, so why put an arbitrary obstacle in front of people who have proven they can do the job?
 
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#137
#137
tumscalcium said:
With many of these fields you can't even put your foot in the door without a degree. Your example is stupid because you can't be practicing medicine without licensing so yes, it's stupid.

Try again with relevant fields.
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In some states a person could (maybe still can) become a lawyer without attending law school.
 
#138
#138
Persian Vol said:
No it's a perfect example. It's an example that absolutely requires an incredible amount of information that can only be taught in school. The fact that you asked what that doctors record was is concerning. Clearly if you have no medical degree and are not licensed to be a doctor, you are not qualified to be a doctor because you simply have not received the education to become a doctor. He can be a doctor for as long as he wants, but he will continue to misdiagnose patients because he simply does not have the proper education.
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What if he doesn't misdiagnose patients? You are making an assumption that since he doesn't have the blessing of the AMA via college that he is a hack. What if he is an Asperger "sufferer"? (I refer you to "The Big Short".)
 
#139
#139
hog88 said:
My brother works for PepsiCo as a ____ manager (don't exactly know what his title is, #2 man at the plant) and he is as high as he can go without his degree. He has had to train his last 3 bosses, so why put an arbitrary obstacle in front of people who have proven they can do the job?
Click to expand...
Yeah, why indeed.
 
#140
#140
hog88 said:
In unicorn land yes.

In my case, I have been running and growing a business for over 20 years without a degree (about 16-20 hours short). I don't think a person with 10 years experience and a business degree would be more qualified.

As I stated in another post, there are professions where I think a college degree in that field is a must but there are many positions that require a degree but aptitude and training would suffice. Many middle management positions didn't require degrees until the Griggs vs Duke Power ruling.
Click to expand...

I am not arguing against jobs that don't need a lot of background information to accomplish. I am arguing about jobs that need extensive education to be able to do. I simply think it is ridiculous to say college is overrated because there blue collar job or manager positions in the field that don't require a degree. I am not here to tell you guys you are not qualified, I'm simply saying a degree is more valuable than you think. Assuming the person who got the degree actually learned something.
 
#142
#142
SpaceCoastVol said:
The builders of the Parthenon and numerous Roman buildings say :hi:

(and Da Vinci)
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I was unaware we still engineer buildings the same way they do.

Because XYZ who happened to be one of the smartest people on this plant built an out of date building a 1000 years ago, that means that you don't need to go to school to be an engineer in today's world?
 
#143
#143
Persian Vol said:
What do you mean by better?
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Does Econ 101 at Harvard unlock some secret that Econ 101 at UT does not? Is there something magic about that place? Do those students get some super understanding of Economics because it is Harvard? It is the same material is it not? Supply and demand is supply and demand whether it is in Boston or Chattanooga.
 
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#144
#144
SpaceCoastVol said:
What if he doesn't misdiagnose patients? You are making an assumption that since he doesn't have the blessing of the AMA via college that he is a hack. What if he is an Asperger "sufferer"? (I refer you to "The Big Short".)
Click to expand...

If you are going to assume, why would you assume something that is unlikely rather than just using logic? Clearly in most cases the man is probably misinformed.
 
#146
#146
Persian Vol said:
I was unaware we still engineer buildings the same way they do.

Because XYZ who happened to be one of the smartest people on this plant built an out of date building a 1000 years ago, that means that you don't need to go to school to be an engineer in today's world?
Click to expand...
The only real difference is materials. Gravity still works the same. The basic concepts are the same. There are more choices today that is for sure. But I guarantee you that no fresh out of college engineer is given the keys to the biggest skyscraper design in the firm, because the reality is that he don't know ****. He is trainable, and that is all. He is not going to show up and wow the staff with the latest and greatest discovery from Georgia Tech. Doesn't work that way.
 
#148
#148
SpaceCoastVol said:
Does Econ 101 at Harvard unlock some secret that Econ 101 at UT does not? Is there something magic about that place? Do those students get some super understanding of Economics because it is Harvard? It is the same material is it not? Supply and demand is supply and demand whether it is in Boston or Chattanooga.
Click to expand...

Truthfully, I'm not certain that the school itself teaches he students that much more than any other legitimate university. But the students are definitely more gifted, and that's where the prestige factor really comes in. The schools prestige is built through the staff and students that come to it. In theory your Harvard Professor is much more renowned than the Tennessee Professor, but I don't think that really means that he makes for a better professor.

I don't think where this is going, but in a world with so many candidates, the person who went to Harvard will stand out because of the sheer difficulty that it takes to get into a school like Harvard. By graduating from Harvard, people assume you are more intellectual and gifted simply because you were one of few to be accepted into that institution.
 
#149
#149
SpaceCoastVol said:
The only real difference is materials. Gravity still works the same. The basic concepts are the same. There are more choices today that is for sure. But I guarantee you that no fresh out of college engineer is given the keys to the biggest skyscraper design in the firm, because the reality is that he don't know ****. He is trainable, and that is all. He is not going to show up and wow the staff with the latest and greatest discovery from Georgia Tech. Doesn't work that way.
Click to expand...

Obviously experience is important. But you simply need to acquire a level of knowledge to work in a specific field such as engineering.
 
#150
#150
Persian Vol said:
I am not arguing against jobs that don't need a lot of background information to accomplish. I am arguing about jobs that need extensive education to be able to do. I simply think it is ridiculous to say college is overrated because there blue collar job or manager positions in the field that don't require a degree. I am not here to tell you guys you are not qualified, I'm simply saying a degree is more valuable than you think. Assuming the person who got the degree actually learned something.
Click to expand...

I agree that today a degree is extremely valuable, it is artificially valuable in most cases.

IMO we have downgraded our secondary education to nothing more than babysitting or college preparation. I would like to see a culture change to where a kid leaving HS has the tools necessary to enter the workforce and advance through merit and ability without having to spend thousands of $$ on higher education.
 
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