Recruiting Forum Off-Topic Thread II

[Ulysees E. McGill]

For the record, the only reason I'm against the death penaltyis because it's more expensive than life imprisonment. If the opposite were true, I'd have no problem with it.





I have no problem with trying to teach people to smartly avoid pregnancy one way or another. I think we should do that as well.

But crafting the rules of society assuming that everybody is going to take the high road and that no one will ever do something stupid isn't a good idea either.

It's human nature to give into base instincts. Some people can avoid that. That's great. But not everybody can. People are stupid (even the smart ones sometimes).

AND on top of that contraceptives can fail. It's rare, but it can happen. Why punish someone who was taking steps to avoid pregnancy and just happened to be part of that 0.01 percent?

For the record I am against the death penalty by the state.."Vengeance is mine, and I will repay, saith the Lord".. But if someone molested, raped or murdered my wife, children or family, I hope God would be merciful to me, for what I would do to them if able. I'm not saying that I think it's right to be that way either, just that I'm not to that place yet. I hope I'm never tried with anything like that.

 

[Glitch]

2 things:

1. It's logically inconsistent to count abortions as murder and not include other state endorsed killings such as the death sentence, lethal force used by police, etc.
2. If you're against using abortion to limit the number of leeches on society, then you can't complain when those should-have-been abortions become leeches on society. Be consistent.

This argument works both ways though. It could have been the next hitler, BTK killer, Lee Harvery Oswalt, or Nick Saban.

• You can't sentence something to death or kill something that hasn't yet lived
• You're trumping up my whole argument to being about criminality here. It's about the positive fiscal (and sometimes other) effects on our society that come from abortion being an option for people.

My point is the murder of millions of innocents should not be justified by cost savings and reduced crime stats. The death penalty is used sparingly and on adults that chose to commit particularly heinous crimes. I am neither for or against it because I know that they will be judged by the ultimate judge. People can certainly be opposed to abortion and in favor of the death penalty though. They are two separate issues.

To me, there is no reason strong enough to justify abortion.

 

[unioncityvol]

these protests are not people standing up against any type of wrongdoing, its very simply discontents crying because they didnt get their way.

 

[SmokinBob]

It's a product of the loud, vocal minority that causes generalizations about both sounds.

Just like the left gets stereotyped as all cry-babies, socialists, communists, lazy, wants hand-outs etc.

And then with the right you add in the fact that there's always been some stereotype as maybe not outright racism, but not caring about black peoples and other minorities since a lot of programs Republicans would like to either cut completely or reduce funding to would effect minorities the most.

And then the whole circus around Trump with the KKK endorsement, his "locker room talk", and then Pence as VP who is arguably one of the most outspoken "anti-gay" leaders, basically pours gasoline over that whole stereotype and the caricature is born that all Trump supporters don't care about women, minoroties, or gays.


One of the worst things about the Internet when it comes to politics is the ability to completely immerse yourself with people with the exact same viewpoints and creating an echochamber where eventually anyone who disagrees has some fundamental character flaw and gets vilified.

This is a well-reasoned post

 

[JacketVol]

Also not apples to apples since one can't feel pain or fear.[/QUOTE

Unless you were aborted not sure about the pain part. With nerves ect and being crushed in some procedures.

 

[JacketVol]

Maybe... if you're guilty. If you can prove to me that everyone sitting on death row is undoubtedly guilty then we can start the discussion. There are studies that have been performed that suggest that based on the rate of death penalty convictions that have been overturned that as many as 4% of the inmates that are sitting on death row are innocent.

People sitting on death row have a significantly higher cost of incarceration than most who are spending their lives in prison. Also, the cost of all the various appeals is significantly greater to the state than the cost of caring for a prisoner for the span of their natural life.

Finally, I've not seen any really reputable peer-reviewed study stating that the death penalty deters people from committing heinous acts. I've seen a bunch of empirical data that proves the opposite. I personally am from the school of thought that death penalty or the absolution of the death penalty has no effect on violent crime. The human mind doesn't have the ability to weigh the risk of being caught, charged, convicted, sentenced, facing multiple appeals, and then being put to death some decades later much the same way that my 3 year old daughter can't calculate risk and reward when I tell her that if she eats her vegetables I'll buy her a car when she turns 16.

The only reason to keep the death penalty around is vengeance. Admittedly, I'm not the Bible scholar that I should be. However, I think the quote below from the movie Kingpin works well in this context:

Roy Munson: Brother Thomas, you know what it says in the bible about not forgiving people, right?

Brother Thomas: Why don't you tell us all what it says Brother Hezekiah?

Roy Munson: It's against it.

Just making a certain statement about comparing it with abortion. What you are talking about is not what was being addressed at the time. Also, I think you have to have 100 percent no doubt convictions to be able to consider it.

 

[BigOrangeVols]

My 2 issues with abortion are that everyone that is pro-choice was not aborted, and the fact that the male has no say. Yet males have to pay child support if they want their child aborted, and the mother chooses to keep the baby. Can't pick and choose on issues, have to be consistent.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

My point is the murder of millions of innocents should not be justified by cost savings and reduced crime stats.

Who's talking about murder? We're talking about halting development of a fetus before it has become viable. 98% of the abortions that take place in the US are prior to the 20-24 week period.

The death penalty is used sparingly and on adults that chose to commit particularly heinous crimes. I am neither for or against it because I know that they will be judged by the ultimate judge. People can certainly be opposed to abortion and in favor of the death penalty though. They are two separate issues.

Sure people can be in favor of whatever they want. But it is logically inconsistent to oppose one and not the other. To oppose one and not the other requires either cognitive dissonance or an answer of "I don't oppose murder in some cases" or "Not all life is sacred."

To me, there is no reason strong enough to justify abortion.

That's fine. It's a free country.

But if you prohibit others from having the option and they end up needing government assistance to support the kid, complaining about the cost is hypocritical.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Unless you were aborted not sure about the pain part. With nerves ect and being crushed in some procedures.

The large majority happen before the nervous system has developed enough to feel pain.

I do think that late term abortions in almost all cases (unless there is a high chance that both the mother and baby will be lost) should not be allowed.

 

[BaldBiker]

I'm just against the death penalty. That's my view as a Christian against it & I don't care what the person has done either. God will deal with them & he will also determine when they leave this Earth.

Have you ever considered that maybe it's God that's behind the death penalty for those individuals? Maybe that was his chosen way to deal with them.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

My 2 issues with abortion are that everyone that is pro-choice was not aborted, and the fact that the male has no say. Yet males have to pay child support if they want their child aborted, and the mother chooses to keep the baby. Can't pick and choose on issues, have to be consistent.

I'm not sure what the fact that pro-choice people were born has to do with the issues. It makes just as little sense as flipping the logic and saying pro life people can't be pro life because they weren't aborted. The fact that someone is alive has no bearing on whether it's ok society to allow abortions.

As for the difference in rights between mother and father, I agree that is a bit of an issue. But most alternatives include something along the lines of allowing a father to exercise the right of some sort of legal written abortion where he doesn't want the baby would likely be abused by anyone who knocks a chick up and doesn't want to pay for the kid.

It is an issue that the woman has more power than the man in this instance. But they are the ones who have to carry it to term and risk their health as well. The current system for that is imperfect, for sure. But I've yet to see a less-imperfect alternative proposed.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Have you ever considered that maybe it's God that's behind the death penalty for those individuals? Maybe that was his chosen way to deal with them.

That argument also works for abortion, though.

 

[JacketVol]

Read some of your posts on this and just do not have the time or strength to respond to all. Most I don't agree with but can see your point of view and some of what you are saying. Just think abortion is murder pure and simple. Do not think it will ever change in this country. Knowing a heart is beating and what will be the most likely outcome without outside influence makes it disgusting to me. I almost lost my wife and daughter at child birth. I believe in God and from what you have posted before, I think you have said you don't. In that position, it is easier to reason a pro abortion stance. Death penalty is something hard to say you are for and be pro life. I do think Jesue in Matthew discusses judgement and the Greek word is Krinos and means to judge to death. Jesus said only God could do that. I do think it meant eternal spiritual death in this instance but a lot of credibility in saying physical death as well. I believe abortion is wrong and you don't and we are not changing each other's mind but your post have been reasonable but leave out Wilk as reference. Some stuff in it is accurate but not a true reliable reference source. Have a good day.

 

[BaldBiker]

That argument also works for abortion, though.

It does. It's not an argument though. Just another way of looking at it.

Trust me, us old military guys think about the ramifications of killing and the whys and... who...in the end...is going to be ultimately responsible for what we've done.

I've looked at these questions from every point of view and at every point of view from multiple angles. What it has gotten me is a quick come back for any argument, but no answer.

 

[BigOrangeVols]

I'm not sure what the fact that pro-choice people were born has to do with the issues. It makes just as little sense as flipping the logic and saying pro life people can't be pro life because they weren't aborted. The fact that someone is alive has no bearing on whether it's ok society to allow abortions.

As for the difference in rights between mother and father, I agree that is a bit of an issue. But most alternatives include something along the lines of allowing a father to exercise the right of some sort of legal written abortion where he doesn't want the baby would likely be abused by anyone who knocks a chick up and doesn't want to pay for the kid.

It is an issue that the woman has more power than the man in this instance. But they are the ones who have to carry it to term and risk their health as well. The current system for that is imperfect, for sure. But I've yet to see a less-imperfect alternative proposed.

Pro-choice individuals being born is just satirical. Nothing too serious, but a serious point and food for thought. Though I accept we disagree.

If a woman has an abortion, she is a dirt bag in the opinion of some if not most even though the abortion was legal. If a man does not support his child, he is a dirt bag in the same way that a woman is a dirt bag if she doesn't support her child. It just happens to be legal for a woman to not support a child she doesn't want, whereas it is illegal for a man to do the same.

I realize it's a somewhat complex situation, but I'd rather see consistency instead of one side being legal while the other is not. "My body, my choice" should equal "My money, my choice".

 

[Catbone]

Lol

 

[beachbums624]

The election is over tRumpers. We are not talking about Obama or deflecting to Clinton . IT IS ALL ABOUT tRUMP now . One party is in charge , cannot blame anything on someone else . Not in a depression , Not losing 800,000 jobs per month . It's ALL on you folks now good or bad . You need to understand that . You no longer get to DELECT . As a Proud American I hope the next 4 years is all unicorns and rainbows . BUT , It's all on the Repubs starting Jan 20. No more blame the other guy .

 

[Catbone]

The election is over tRumpers. We are not talking about Obama or deflecting to Clinton . IT IS ALL ABOUT tRUMP now . One party is in charge , cannot blame anything on someone else . Not in a depression , Not losing 800,000 jobs per month . It's ALL on you folks now good or bad . You need to understand that . You no longer get to DELECT . As a Proud American I hope the next 4 years is all unicorns and rainbows . BUT , It's all on the Repubs starting Jan 20. No more blame the other guy .

Regardless, I'm just glad we don't have a criminal wall street owned pathological liar with links to terrorism in the white house

 

[Appalachiamuck]

The election is over tRumpers. We are not talking about Obama or deflecting to Clinton . IT IS ALL ABOUT tRUMP now . One party is in charge , cannot blame anything on someone else . Not in a depression , Not losing 800,000 jobs per month . It's ALL on you folks now good or bad . You need to understand that . You no longer get to DELECT . As a Proud American I hope the next 4 years is all unicorns and rainbows . BUT , It's all on the Repubs starting Jan 20. No more blame the other guy .

Except the next few years can certainly be affected by what has happened the last few. Things won't get straightened out in just four years.

All this division needs to stop. We're our own worst enemy.

 

[Orange Studs]

So the liberals who have always call themselves the tolerant party, are rioting, damaging property, dragging people out of their car and beating them because they voted for Trump. AHHHH sore loser maybe? Where is Jess Jackson and Al Sharpton at now? They ought to be doing all they can to stop this crap.

 

[Mick]

Who's talking about murder? We're talking about halting development of a fetus before it has become viable. 98% of the abortions that take place in the US are prior to the 20-24 week period.






Sure people can be in favor of whatever they want. But it is logically inconsistent to oppose one and not the other. To oppose one and not the other requires either cognitive dissonance or an answer of "I don't oppose murder in some cases" or "Not all life is sacred."



That's fine. It's a free country.

But if you prohibit others from having the option and they end up needing government assistance to support the kid, complaining about the cost is hypocritical.

If society passes a law prohibiting abortion then it is society's responsibility to care for the child until it can care for itself. In the US that is 18 years old. In a religious such group, such as a Christian church, it would become the churches responsibility. How about we just pass a law to make it legal to drop unwanted newborns and children off at any Christian Mega-church location. Money and resources do not seem to be a problem for them. Problem solved. No aborted fetuses and taxpayers don't have to foot the bill.

 

[volssam]

The election is over tRumpers. We are not talking about Obama or deflecting to Clinton . IT IS ALL ABOUT tRUMP now . One party is in charge , cannot blame anything on someone else . Not in a depression , Not losing 800,000 jobs per month . It's ALL on you folks now good or bad . You need to understand that . You no longer get to DELECT . As a Proud American I hope the next 4 years is all unicorns and rainbows . BUT , It's all on the Repubs starting Jan 20. No more blame the other guy .

Ummmmm, has the mantra the last 8 years not been "it's Bush's fault?"

Again I didn't vote for Trump or Hillary. But the policies the last 8 years (and some before that) have put us on the brink of a major depression. Can Trump reverse course and pull us out of the danger zone? I don't know. I hope so. But if not, to fully blame him is just wrong.

But I will say that's what I told my wife (who also wrote in her vote but was hoping Trump.beat Hillary) before the election. That as bad as I think a Hillary presidency would be, it might be better in.the long run if she wins, because I think the economy is gonna tank big time in.the next 4 years no matter who is elected. But whoever is in there will get blamed and the other party will win big in 2020. Scary stuff.

But I do hope and pray Trump can do well. If nothing else, please.get.a conservative justice through and repeal this healthcare law. Please.

 

[volssam]

Speaking of the healthcare law....

.

 

[Glitch]

Who's talking about murder? We're talking about halting development of a fetus before it has become viable. 98% of the abortions that take place in the US are prior to the 20-24 week period.






Sure people can be in favor of whatever they want. But it is logically inconsistent to oppose one and not the other. To oppose one and not the other requires either cognitive dissonance or an answer of "I don't oppose murder in some cases" or "Not all life is sacred."



That's fine. It's a free country.

But if you prohibit others from having the option and they end up needing government assistance to support the kid, complaining about the cost is hypocritical.

And baby'shower heart is developed and beating as early as five or six weeks into a pregnancy. It is true that the baby could not survive outside of the mother at that point, however, a baby wouldn't survive without care outside of the mother for years after birth either.

New Health Guide - New Health Guide for Your Everyday Health.

When you check to see if a person is alive or dead you check for a pulse or heartbeat. A person isn't officially declared dead until their heart stops beating. So why is a baby not considered alive when it has a heartbeat. Then if you consider the baby alive and choose to abortion it, that is pre-meditated murder.

Also, your argument about the death penalty compared to abortion is laughable. If an adult chooses to go out, drill a hole in someone's skull, and vacuum their brain out it would be considered murder and a heinous one at that. They would be tried by a jury of their peers and could receive the death penalty. The point ispread they would be charged with murder. However, a mother can go to a clinic and request the same procedure be done on their unborn child, with a heartbeat, and others is perfectly legal.

Get rid of the death penalty for all I care. However, abortion deprives millions of children of their basic right to life that they are guaranteed by the Constitution.

As far as the financial burden. Stop giving government assistance to people who aren't responsible. There. I solved it.

 

[Vols4us]

It's my right not not believe in the death penalty just as it's your right to believe in it. I'm the type of person that believes God is in control of EVERYTHING & he will deal with these murderers/killers & sexual molesters.

He will punish them enough & then take them out on his own terms & not ours. That's all I'm discussing about this because obviously all it will cause is bickering back & forth. Thanks!

It was not addressed to you. Thanks!