Loyal Fans u are

[PEPPERJAX]

Was Spurrier a better coach than Fulmer? Yes, no question but Fulmer did not quit on his team when things went bad.

 

[VolinMC]

It was hard losing to the Gators like we did back then. The way way we lost some of those games is the reason some say we are jinxed,cursed or whatever you wanna call it. Things would happen that never happened in other games at that time. Yes, Fla was the best team in the SEC back then but it was a crazy time.

 

[VolinMC]

Really, SJT? Not while he was at Florida (which is when Fulmer played him).

Spurrier had at least as good a win rate against everyone else* as he did against Fulmer, with one exception: Bobby Bowden at FSU.

Spurrier @ Florida was 12-0 against Kentucky, 10-0 vs USCe, and 10-0 against Vandy, of course. But he was also perfect against Arkansas (3-0), and here's how the rest of Spurrier's regular opponents stack up in W/L %:

Georgia - 11-1 (92%)
LSU - 11-1 (92%)
Auburn - 10-3 (84%)
Miss St - 4-2 (67%)
Alabama - 6-3 (67%)
Tennessee - 8-4 (67%)
FSU - 5-8-1 (39%)

Bottom line is, Spurrier wasn't so much inside Fulmer's head (though he sure tried to be, and constantly) as he was just a very, very good coach who won a heck of a lot of games.

Fulmer actually did pretty well against him, compared to most everyone else.

Go Vols!


*Among teams he played two or more times. Notre Dame (Lou Holtz), Nebraska (Tom Osborne), Miami (Butch Davis), and a Nick Saban-led Michigan State squad were all able to beat Spurrier once. Then again, if the Fulmer-Spurrier series ended after just one game, Fulmer would've been 1-0 against the man, too.

Great post as usual JP.

 

[gunner]

If you've been a Vol Football fan before 1992.

I... actually watched highlights of the UT - Florida games from 1993- 1997.

My God in Heaven...

I swear, it was the same game every year. Not the final scores but the feel and tone of the games were a the same.

I was like... "this was our glory years?"

Seriously, even these past 11 years didnt seem as bad as what a I was watching. How can we play so badly against the same team every year.

That was agony watching that. Graham fumbling, Peyton getting sacked, throwing picks right and left. DBs getting toasted!!

I know Fulmer is a legend, but I swear ive never seen Butch's Vols quit and play terrified like that.

I applaud all of you who endured that.

I hope we can beat them this year. They have some nice weapons in their 2017 class so far.

One year at a time. I'll go ahead and say it... some of you all are better fans than I ever will be. I hope to never see Tennessee take that type of abuse again.

Go watch the UT - Alabama starting in 1995 and you will see a completely different team than what played UF those same seasons.

 

[dduncan4163]

If you've been a Vol Football fan before 1992.

I... actually watched highlights of the UT - Florida games from 1993- 1997.

My God in Heaven...

I swear, it was the same game every year. Not the final scores but the feel and tone of the games were a the same.

I was like... "this was our glory years?"

Seriously, even these past 11 years didnt seem as bad as what a I was watching. How can we play so badly against the same team every year.

That was agony watching that. Graham fumbling, Peyton getting sacked, throwing picks right and left. DBs getting toasted!!

I know Fulmer is a legend, but I swear ive never seen Butch's Vols quit and play terrified like that.

I applaud all of you who endured that.

I hope we can beat them this year. They have some nice weapons in their 2017 class so far.

One year at a time. I'll go ahead and say it... some of you all are better fans than I ever will be. I hope to never see Tennessee take that type of abuse again.

Those 90s games are the reason my hatred for Florida runs deeper than my hatred for Bama ever will.

 

[jackaro]

You don't win a national championship without being able to do all parts of your job well.

Fulmer was a very good coach...a very good trainer...a very good recruiter...and a very good leader and manager. He did all parts of his job well, some a bit better than others.

By this logic Chizik is a great coach who did all parts of his job well.

The 1998 national championship team was loaded with talent, and had several lucky breaks. Fulmer was a great recruiter, and had good coordinators. As far as I am concerned he was a mediocre coach that was handed a team on the rise.

 

[dduncan4163]

We could go on a Ky like 25 plus against Florida and they will still remain my most hated team.

Can't spell Citrus without UT still causing the gnashing of my teeth.

 

[PEPPERJAX]

By this logic Chizik is a great coach who did all parts of his job well.

The 1998 national championship team was loaded with talent, and had several lucky breaks. Fulmer was a great recruiter, and had good coordinators. As far as I am concerned he was a mediocre coach that was handed a team on the rise.

You do not just roll out of bed and win over 150 games in the SEC. Fulmer was not elite but at least a good coach, mediocre is just insulting.

 

[Remy]

Go watch the UT - Alabama starting in 1995 and you will see a completely different team than what played UF those same seasons.

Being a Vol fan starting in the 60s yes I recall the gator years of Spurrier. Most folks today as then tried to make it about getting into Fulmer's head. Fulmer spent most of his years on the offensive side of the ball as did Spurrier. The head the HBC got into mostly was The Chief/Chavis. During the fun & gun years for UF it was routine for gator receivers to be romping around our secondary running to spots which gator QBs would toss high floaters and just get there. During this period few of the gator QBs could break a pane of glass with a brick, see Heisman winner ragarm Werffuel, Kerfluffel whatever his name as my example. Chavis was totally outmatchdd by Spurrier whose receivers were wide open frequently, by wide no one within 5 yards or more of them.

 

[BowlBrother85]

You do not just roll out of bed and win over 150 games in the SEC. Fulmer was not elite but at least a good coach, mediocre is just insulting.

The last 4 seasons definitely taint him but from 1993-2004, he WAS elite.

 

[BaldBiker]

The 90's were another decade of TN football for some of us. My third decade to be exact. The 1970's being my first full decade.

Good years come and go. Winning streaks come and go. Losing streaks come and go. Stars come and go. The two constants are the Orange and White and the fans.

Loyal fans watch and root for their team, even when it's painful. The bad games and the bad years make the good ones that much sweeter when they happen.

Wow.....I'm in my 5th decade of UT football. It's been a hell of a ride so far.

:hi:

 

[chuckb1448]

I've been onboard since Majors, I knew it was a roller coaster when I boarded, I'm willing to take the risk.

 

[TN Outlaw]

I was a teenager through the 90's but what it appeared to me was Fulmer/Chavis had a defense built to stop most offenses of that time which was the 5yds and a cloud of dust type offenses and throwing the ball off play action stuff. Bigger defensive players to stuff gaps and bring heat on play action.

Spurrier would spread the field and tossed it sideline to sideline and wore our LB's out and then would toss it downfield to a spot with very fast WR's. Our big LB's were gassed and Fla always had a good Oline so bringing a blitz rarely ever got to the QB. Their WR just had to outrun our DB and usually did.

It just seemed we weren't really ever built to stop a spread style air raid offense like Spurrier ran or at least not consistently and they had some great defenses during that time too.

I still would take the success I got spoiled on during the 90's except for Florida over what the last 7 years have been.

 

[KBVol]

Spurrier lived inside Fulmer's head. It was both incredible to watch and frustrating in the extreme. It was a pretty classic clash of leaderships styles.

Fulmer wanted to be the "game manager". He was cautious.... predictable... deliberate.

Spurrier was aggressive and the more conservative an opponent was.... the more aggressive he instinctively became. Fulmer's tendency of course was to become even more conservative when he sensed things getting out of hand.

Recipe for exactly what we saw.

Other coaches with no more talent than UT did better against Spurrier.

Fulmer's only one of several Tennessee coaches who have been "owned" by a Gators head coach.

Majors was 1-4 vs Florida....Dickey, Charley Pell and Galen Hall all beat him. And of course, since Fulmer left, Kiffin, Dooley and now Butch are 0-7 vs any coach Florida can come up with. There's no doubt that Spurrier owned Fulmer....but that's no different than any other Tennessee coach has been owned since Bill Battle was our coach in the early 70s.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

By this logic Chizik is a great coach who did all parts of his job well.

The 1998 national championship team was loaded with talent, and had several lucky breaks. Fulmer was a great recruiter, and had good coordinators. As far as I am concerned he was a mediocre coach that was handed a team on the rise.

Ah, see, yes, that's the Larry Coker / Gene Chizik argument.

The problem with it is, it works best with coaches who can call a good game but are (1) terrible recruiters, or (2) terrible leader/managers.

Yes, the guy who inherits a team loaded with talent, and then immediately wins a NC, that guy didn't have to prove he can recruit, or even lead/manage well over time. He only had to get the talent already on hand ready (good training/development), and call good games (good "coaching", though all of this is really part of coaching).

So that counter-argument doesn't work well when you're trying to say a guy isn't a good gameday coach. It works best when you're saying a guy can't recruit, or can't lead.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Fulmer's only one of several Tennessee coaches who have been "owned" by a Gators head coach.

Majors was 1-4 vs Florida....Dickey, Charley Pell and Galen Hall all beat him. And of course, since Fulmer left, Kiffin, Dooley and now Butch are 0-7 vs any coach Florida can come up with. There's no doubt that Spurrier owned Fulmer....but that's no different than any other Tennessee coach has been owned since Bill Battle was our coach in the early 70s.

Definitely not talking about Neyland... To a certain extent the overall series record is to Florida's advantage only because it was not an annual series until 1990. Tennessee would (as one example) have easily won in 1989. It was also to Tennessee's disadvantage that we played them at the height of their cheating under Pell/Hall. Their teams in '84 and '85 were the best teams money could buy.

 

[jackaro]

Ah, see, yes, that's the Larry Coker / Gene Chizik argument.

The problem with it is, it works best with coaches who can call a good game but are (1) terrible recruiters, or (2) terrible leader/managers.

Yes, the guy who inherits a team loaded with talent, and then immediately wins a NC, that guy didn't have to prove he can recruit, or even lead/manage well over time. He only had to get the talent already on hand ready (good training/development), and call good games (good "coaching", though all of this is really part of coaching).

So that counter-argument doesn't work well when you're trying to say a guy isn't a good gameday coach. It works best when you're saying a guy can't recruit, or can't lead.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was not compairing Fulmer to Chizik, I only brought up Chizik to show the false logic that any coach who wins a national championship is a good all around coach.

My main point (from an earlier post) was that Fulmer often lost (badly) to teams of equal talent. That is just plain getting out coached.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was not compairing Fulmer to Chizik, I only brought up Chizik to show the false logic that any coach who wins a national championship is a good all around coach.

My main point (from an earlier post) was that Fulmer often lost (badly) to teams of equal talent. That is just plain getting out coached.

I understood what you were saying, but maybe I wasn't clear enough in my response.

The Chizik/Coker examples show that you don't have to be good at ALL aspects of coaching (esp. recruiting and perhaps leadership/management) to win a NC in your very first year, if you inherit great talent and can drive it in the short term. You do still have to be good at calling games and developing/training the talent you inherited. Those two skill sets are never short in a coach who wins NCs, even those who win one in their first (inherited) year.

And it's game day coaching you seem most interested in with Fulmer. So that's pertinent, no?

So your argument (the Chizik/Coker example) fails to make the case for a coach like Fulmer, who has success over a long period of time, including a national championship NOT in his first year. To do all that, Fulmer had to have it all. Stronger with some elements than others, sure, but he couldn't be weak anywhere and still win like he did.

Perhaps Fulmer did get outcoached from time to time (but he outcoached others a HECK of a lot more often)...but that's not saying that he's a bad coach. Heck, Spurrier got out-coached from time to time, too...so do Saban and Meyer, today.

No coach is perfect. But Fulmer was hella good.

 

[Other_Guy]

I can only remember watching/listening to games from 2002. So my fandom consists of 2 SECCG appearances... My best memory is 04 Florida game... But I love my Vols!

 

[Pacer92]

Oh, it was also an early indication of what would eventually sink Fulmer IMO.

He was VERY resistant to change. He didn't change playbooks. He didn't change methods. He allowed personal loyalties to trump loyalty to the team by having a steady standard for discipline. Even Kiffin recognized how big this problem was when he arrived.

Agree. Fulmer didn't change with the times...

Football is ever evolving and cyclical. Things that are en vogue during a certain era usually come full circle eventually. The mobile QB was hot during the 70's and made a reentrance during the 2000s...for example..

QB talent or style was really not a problem during the Fulmer years, but the whole system or scheme lacked imagination or adapted to change very well..

 

[Neyland Law Vol]

Really, SJT? Not while he was at Florida (which is when Fulmer played him).

Spurrier had at least as good a win rate against everyone else* as he did against Fulmer, with one exception: Bobby Bowden at FSU.

Spurrier @ Florida was 12-0 against Kentucky, 10-0 vs USCe, and 10-0 against Vandy, of course. But he was also perfect against Arkansas (3-0), and here's how the rest of Spurrier's regular opponents stack up in W/L %:

Georgia - 11-1 (92%)
LSU - 11-1 (92%)
Auburn - 10-3 (84%)
Miss St - 4-2 (67%)
Alabama - 6-3 (67%)
Tennessee - 8-4 (67%)
FSU - 5-8-1 (39%)

Bottom line is, Spurrier wasn't so much inside Fulmer's head (though he sure tried to be, and constantly) as he was just a very, very good coach who won a heck of a lot of games.

Fulmer actually did pretty well against him, compared to most everyone else.

Go Vols!


*Among teams he played two or more times. Notre Dame (Lou Holtz), Nebraska (Tom Osborne), Miami (Butch Davis), and a Nick Saban-led Michigan State squad were all able to beat Spurrier once. Then again, if the Fulmer-Spurrier series ended after just one game, Fulmer would've been 1-0 against the man, too.

:clapping::good!::thumbsup:

 

[Other_Guy]

By this logic Chizik is a great coach who did all parts of his job well.

The 1998 national championship team was loaded with talent, and had several lucky breaks. Fulmer was a great recruiter, and had good coordinators. As far as I am concerned he was a mediocre coach that was handed a team on the rise.

Mediocre... Your good post turned into hot garbage with that last statement.

Also, I saw really wanted to use the term hot garbage.

 

[sjt18]

Really, SJT? Not while he was at Florida (which is when Fulmer played him).

Spurrier had at least as good a win rate against everyone else* as he did against Fulmer, with one exception: Bobby Bowden at FSU.

Spurrier @ Florida was 12-0 against Kentucky, 10-0 vs USCe, and 10-0 against Vandy, of course. But he was also perfect against Arkansas (3-0), and here's how the rest of Spurrier's regular opponents stack up in W/L %:

Georgia - 11-1 (92%)
LSU - 11-1 (92%)
Auburn - 10-3 (84%)
Miss St - 4-2 (67%)
Alabama - 6-3 (67%)
Tennessee - 8-4 (67%)
FSU - 5-8-1 (39%)

Bottom line is, Spurrier wasn't so much inside Fulmer's head (though he sure tried to be, and constantly) as he was just a very, very good coach who won a heck of a lot of games.

Fulmer actually did pretty well against him, compared to most everyone else.

Go Vols!


*Among teams he played two or more times. Notre Dame (Lou Holtz), Nebraska (Tom Osborne), Miami (Butch Davis), and a Nick Saban-led Michigan State squad were all able to beat Spurrier once. Then again, if the Fulmer-Spurrier series ended after just one game, Fulmer would've been 1-0 against the man, too.

Your statistics have to be deeper than that. You'd have to break it down by coach and year.

It is also meaningful that Fulmer went 0-5 before beating Spurrier. Few of the teams you listed above had a coach that made it more than 3 or 4 years.

 

[Pacer92]

Say what you want about Fulmer. He was a really good coach that won many games and a NC...

On the flip side....most of the games he lost was not for a lack of talent...

Our talent rivaled anyone during the majority of Fulmer's run.

 

[YankeeVol]

Anyone who is still around after the last decade is a true fan