How SEC Football Should Reorganize Its Divisions

[VFL-82-JP]

Ole Miss has really hot girls

Good point. Let's play them every year. Just gotta take away their money bags first.

 

[bamawriter]

Wrong. 2 of the 4 historically worst programs are in the West. Ole Miss, Miss State, Kentucky, and Vandy, in that order as you sink to the bottom.

Nope. Ole Miss has a better historical record than Missouri and South Carolina.

 

[jakez4ut]

Best setup: Eliminate divisions. Everyone gets 3 permanent opponents and rotates the other 10. With and eight game season, you play a home-and-home against everyone every 4 years. Go to nine games and it's more frequent than that.

Here's my take on each team's permanent opponents:

Alabama - Auburn, Mississippi St, Tennessee
Arkansas - Texas A&M, Missouri, LSU
Auburn - Alabama, Florida, Georgia
Florida - Georgia, Tennessee, Auburn
Georgia - Florida, Auburn, South Carolina
Kentucky - Mississippi St, South Carolina, Vanderbilt
LSU - Arkansas, Texas A&M, Ole Miss
Mississippi St - Ole Miss, Kentucky, Alabama
Missouri - South Carolina, Arkansas, Texas A&M
Ole Miss - LSU, Vanderbilt, Mississippi St
South Carolina - Kentucky, Georgia, Missouri
Tennessee - Vanderbilt, Alabama, Florida
Texas A&M - Missouri, LSU, Arkansas
Vanderbilt - Tennessee, Ole Miss, Kentucky

you must really hate Auburn.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

That's it, I'm suing you for copyright infringement!

Post 37:

So another thought. Do away with divisions, stay at 8 conference games, and fix 3 of the 8 games as permanent rivals. So using the Vols as the example, we could have Bama, Florida and one other (Auburn? Georgia? Vandy? Kentucky? Ole Miss? Miss St? ... all have been considered rivals in the past), and the other 5 games would rotate from year to year. Since there are 10 other teams in the conference, that means we'd play each of them once every two years. Home and home cycle every four years. That's not bad at all....


p.s. Looking at what I just wrote, I'd probably have Vandy as the third permanent rival for the Vols. Not because I like them or anything, but because our other two permanent rivals are among the two toughest teams in the conference. Just to balance out schedule difficulty, making the third Vandy would be about right. Plus, they are the in-state rival.

Post 75:

Best setup: Eliminate divisions. Everyone gets 3 permanent opponents and rotates the other 10. With and eight game season, you play a home-and-home against everyone every 4 years. Go to nine games and it's more frequent than that.

Here's my take on each team's permanent opponents:

Alabama - Auburn, Mississippi St, Tennessee
Arkansas - Texas A&M, Missouri, LSU
Auburn - Alabama, Florida, Georgia
Florida - Georgia, Tennessee, Auburn
Georgia - Florida, Auburn, South Carolina
Kentucky - Mississippi St, South Carolina, Vanderbilt
LSU - Arkansas, Texas A&M, Ole Miss
Mississippi St - Ole Miss, Kentucky, Alabama
Missouri - South Carolina, Arkansas, Texas A&M
Ole Miss - LSU, Vanderbilt, Mississippi St
South Carolina - Kentucky, Georgia, Missouri
Tennessee - Vanderbilt, Alabama, Florida
Texas A&M - Missouri, LSU, Arkansas
Vanderbilt - Tennessee, Ole Miss, Kentucky

You owe me all the royalties when this idea takes root. lol:

 

[bamawriter]

you must really hate Auburn.

I'm fairly confident that if you were to poll Auburn fans, those are the three they'd pick.

 

[bamawriter]

That's it, I'm suing you for copyright infringement!



You owe me all the royalties when this idea takes root. lol:

Sorry. A similar conversation occurred back in December. I posted this:

Assign each team 3 permanent rivalries and rotate the other ten. The important rivalries stay intact and each team plays a home-and-home with every other team within a 4 year cycle as opposed to the 12 year cycle we have now.

 

[drylo]

I just can't see dropping the TSIO. It's just too ingrained. I can't even imagine what a football season without Alabama on the schedule would be like.

 

[TUSKtimes]

Just how long do you anticipate it will take?

I'm thinking we beat you up and take your lunch money in the next year or two.

.

According to the Tennessee metric geeks, it has something to do with recruiting numbers x attrition x infinity.

Loose translation for Knoxville. No cigar.

 

[TrueOrange]

Nope. Ole Miss has a better historical record than Missouri and South Carolina.

And you know what's funny? Each has made the SEC Championship game more times than Ole Miss has.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Sorry. A similar conversation occurred back in December. I posted this:

There are truly very few new ideas under the sun.

According to the Tennessee metric geeks, it has something to do with recruiting numbers x attrition x infinity.

Loose translation for Knoxville. No cigar.

I would bet you, if I knew you enough to trust you. I'll bet my uncle instead, he's an elephant fan.

And you know what's funny? Each has made the SEC Championship game more times than Ole Miss has.

Yep, historically both are better than Ole Miss, people just have short memories around here. :good!:

 

[VolFreakJosh]

In all honestly, is Kentucky even considered a "rival" anymore? I'd rather switch them with someone like Texas A&M or LSU cause how often does Tennessee get to play those type of teams?

 

[jakez4ut]

history and consistency are two different things.

and the only thing Vandy and Ky have done consistently is be cellar dwellers.

relevant history also comes in to play...and i've said that both MSU and Ole Miss have had more success at sustaining even average performance more than either of the other two have had, even in just a single anomaly of a year...which neither vandy or ky have even had.

random bowl seasons, helped greatly by 6-6 qualifying seasons now with 12 game schedule.

spread the wealth.

split up the intra state schools and split up Vandy and KY.

everybody wins.

 

[BigOrangeLoyalist]

East:
Tennessee
Alabama
Florida
Georgia
South Carolina
Kentucky
Vanderbilt

West:
Auburn
Ole Miss
Miss State
Mizzou
Texas A&M
LSU
Arkansas

I like this.. solves the Auburn/Bama, Tenn/Bama issue and preserves UGA/Auburn.

 

[jakez4ut]

I like this.. solves the Auburn/Bama, Tenn/Bama issue and preserves UGA/Auburn.

UGA/aub not really...

 

[TrueOrange]

Yep, historically both are better than Ole Miss, people just have short memories around here. :good!:

I was actually just making fun of Ole Miss. He's right in that Ole Miss is a better program than South Carolina. Short-term would be to judge South Carolina by the recent Spurrier era. They're a program that's about .500 overall and has only been to 20 bowl games total. Here's how they did before Steve:

1892 No coach 0–1
1894 No coach 0–2
1895 No coach 2–1
1896 W. H. Whaley 1–3
1897 Frederick M. Murphy 0–3
1898 Bill Wertenbaker 1–2
1899 Irving O. Hunt 2–3
1900 Irving O. Hunt 4–3
1901 Byron W. Dickson 3–4
1902 C. R. Williams 6–1
1903 C. R. Williams 8–2
1904 Christie Benet 4–3–1
1905 Christie Benet 4–2–1
1907 Douglas McKay 3–0
1908 Christie Benet 3–5–1
1909 Christie Benet 2–6
1910 John Neff 4–4
1911 John Neff 1–4–2
1912 Norman B. Edgerton 5–2–1
1913 Norman B. Edgerton 4–3
1914 Norman B. Edgerton 5–5–1

Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association

1915 Norman B. Edgerton 5–3–1
1916 W. Rice Warren 2–7
1917 Dixon Foster 3–5
1918 Frank Dobson 2–1–1
1919 Dixon Foster 1–7–1
1920 Sol Metzger 5–4
1921 Sol Metzger 5–1–2

Southern Conference

1922 Sol Metzger 5–4
1923 Sol Metzger 4–6
1924 Sol Metzger 7–3
1925 Branch Bocock 7–3
1926 Branch Bocock 6–4
1927 Harry Lightsey 4–5
1928 Billy Laval 6–2–2
1929 Billy Laval 6–5
1930 Billy Laval 6–4
1931 Billy Laval 5–4–1
1932 Billy Laval 5–4–2
1933 Billy Laval 6–3–1
1934 Billy Laval 5–4
1935 Don McCallister 3–7
1936 Don McCallister 5–7
1937 Don McCallister 5–6–1
1938 Rex Enright 6–4–1
1939 Rex Enright 3–6–1
1940 Rex Enright 3–6
1941 Rex Enright 4–4–1
1942 Rex Enright 1–7–1
1943 James P. Moran 5–2
1944 Williams Newton 3–4–2
1945 John D. McMillan 2–4–3 Lost Gator Bowl
1946 Rex Enright 5–3
1947 Rex Enright 6–2–1
1948 Rex Enright 3–5
1949 Rex Enright 4–6
1950 Rex Enright 3–4–2
1951 Rex Enright 5–4
1952 Rex Enright 5–5

Atlantic Coast Conference

1953 Rex Enright 7–3
1954 Rex Enright 6–4
1955 Rex Enright 3–6
1956 Warren Giese 7–3
1957 Warren Giese 5–5
1958 Warren Giese 7–3
1959 Warren Giese 6–4
1960 Warren Giese 3–6–1
1961 Marvin Bass 4–6
1962 Marvin Bass 4–5–1
1963 Marvin Bass 1–8–1
1964 Marvin Bass 3–5–2
1965 Marvin Bass 5–5
1966 Paul Dietzel 1–9
1967 Paul Dietzel 5–5
1968 Paul Dietzel 4–6
1969 Paul Dietzel 7–4 ACC Champions Lost Peach Bowl
1970 Paul Dietzel 4–6–1

Independent

1971 Paul Dietzel 6–5
1972 Paul Dietzel 4–7
1973 Paul Dietzel 7–4
1974 Paul Dietzel 4–7
1975 Jim Carlen 7–5 Lost Tangerine Bowl
1976 Jim Carlen 6–5
1977 Jim Carlen 5–7
1978 Jim Carlen 5–5–1
1979 Jim Carlen 8–4 Lost Hall of Fame Classic
1980 Jim Carlen 8–4 Lost Gator Bowl
1981 Jim Carlen 6–6
1982 Richard Bell 4–7
1983 Joe Morrison 5–6
1984 Joe Morrison 10–2 Lost Gator Bowl
1985 Joe Morrison 5–6
1986 Joe Morrison 3–6–2
1987 Joe Morrison 8–4 Lost Gator Bowl
1988 Joe Morrison 8–4 Lost Liberty Bowl
1989 Sparky Woods 6–4–1
1990 Sparky Woods 6–5
1991 Sparky Woods 3–6–2

SEC East

1992 Sparky Woods 5–6
1993 Sparky Woods 4–7
1994 Brad Scott 7–5 3–5
1995 Brad Scott 4–6–1
1996 Brad Scott 6–5
1997 Brad Scott 5–6
1998 Brad Scott 1–10
1999 Lou Holtz 0–11
2000 Lou Holtz Won Outback Bowl
2001 Lou Holtz 9–3 Won Outback Bowl
2002 Lou Holtz 5–7
2003 Lou Holtz 5–7
2004 Lou Holtz 6–5

(Even as bad as Vanderbilt and Kentucky have been, I can't seem to recall an 0-11 season, at least from the 1980's onward.)

----------

If anything, Missouri and Ole Miss oddly are almost like mirror images of each other. (Yes, Missouri is about a .550 program compared to Ole Miss's .563.)

Both had much higher levels of successes up until around the 60s -- when each won their last conference championships (Missouri in 1960 and 1969, Ole Miss in 1962 and 1963)...Ole Miss had I think a non-consensus national title from a 10-win season when they ended #2, Missouri had an 10-1 season with a #4 ranking in 1960 where a forfeiture by rival Kansas following the game later made it an 11-0 season -- both saw their last top 10 finish for a while in 1969, and then both fell pretty hard through the 70s, 80s, and 90s.


And each has had this recurring tendency (especially since the turn of the millennium) of the program having seasons where it seems as though it might actually break through that barrier/ceiling above the program and reach the next level, only to fall just short of doing such:

Missouri in 2007 (when it went 12-2 and reached a #1 ranking before losing to Oklahoma in the Big 12 Championship Game) and in 2013 (when it went 12-2 and reached #5 before losing to Auburn) both of which would have resulted in their making the national championship game had they won either one
(you could even mention 2008 and more so 2010 as a chance to actually win their conference for the firs time since the 60s).

Ole Miss in 2003 (where at 10-3 with Eli Manning they came 4 points short of actually making their first SEC Championship Game...while somehow losing to Memphis and Texas Tech), 2014 (where they manage to beat Alabama, but miss out on the conference championship and possibly a playoff spot due to close losses and injuries against LSU and Auburn), and 2015 (where they beat Alabama again...and even though after a terrible loss to Memphis still controlled their own destiny, managed to find another way to not make the SEC Championship Game, losing 53-52 against Arkansas off of a 4th and 25 lateral/fumble, an early OT 2-point conversion, and a facemask on the two point conversion play that allowed Arkansas to try to score again).... there's also 2009 but that's more that they started in the top 10 and didn't live up to hype.






Mississippi State, meanwhile, is about .491 as far as wins and losses go.

 

[TrueOrange]

Yep, historically both are better than Ole Miss, people just have short memories around here. :good!:

If anything, Missouri and Ole Miss oddly are almost like mirror images of each other. (Yes, Missouri is about a .550 program compared to Ole Miss's .563.)

Both had much higher levels of successes up until around the 60s -- when each won their last conference championships (Missouri in 1960 and 1969, Ole Miss in 1962 and 1963)...Ole Miss had I think a non-consensus national title from a 10-win season when they ended #2, Missouri had an 10-1 season with a #4 ranking in 1960 where a forfeiture by rival Kansas following the game later made it an 11-0 season -- both saw their last top 10 finish for a while in 1969, and then both fell pretty hard through the 70s, 80s, and 90s.


And each has had this recurring tendency (especially since the turn of the millennium) of the program having seasons where it seems as though it might actually break through that barrier/ceiling above the program and reach the next level, only to fall just short of doing such:

Missouri in 2007 (when it went 12-2 and reached a #1 ranking before losing to Oklahoma in the Big 12 Championship Game) and in 2013 (when it went 12-2 and reached #5 before losing to Auburn) both of which would have resulted in their making the national championship game had they won either one
(you could even mention 2008 and more so 2010 as a chance to actually win their conference for the firs time since the 60s).

Ole Miss in 2003 (where at 10-3 with Eli Manning they came 4 points short of actually making their first SEC Championship Game...while somehow losing to Memphis and Texas Tech), 2014 (where they manage to beat Alabama, but miss out on the conference championship and possibly a playoff spot due to close losses and injuries against LSU and Auburn), and 2015 (where they beat Alabama again...and even though after a terrible loss to Memphis still controlled their own destiny, managed to find another way to not make the SEC Championship Game, losing 53-52 against Arkansas off of a 4th and 25 lateral/fumble, an early OT 2-point conversion, and a facemask on the two point conversion play that allowed Arkansas to try to score again)
.... there's also 2009 but that's more that they started in the top 10 and didn't live up to hype.






Mississippi State, meanwhile, is about .491 as far as wins and losses go.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

.482 for Miss St, according to this site: College Football Research: All-Time Winning Percentages . That's a full percentage point lower than Vandy's .496.

Okay, so if you go back to the dawn of time (which for American football is the late 1800s), I see your point. But Sewanee and Cumberland and Maryville and even Yale and Army are part of that mix. There is such thing as reaching back TOO far.

So 120 years is too far. 5 years isn't far enough. What's the right stretch to get a realistic feel for how teams might be expected to perform over the next 20-25 years?

I cut if off at the past 20. You might choose a different window of time, say 25, 30, even 40 years if you wish. Not 120, please. But there's plenty of room to have differences of opinion over the time period involved.

Using those more pertinent records, I think you're gonna find that Ole Miss and Miss St have been doormats most of their recent history. Not as weak as Vandy and Kentucky, true, but doormats nonetheless.

Remember, Ole Miss went 2-10 just five years ago. They were 4-8 the year before that. And a few years before that, they had 3-8, 4-8, and 3-9 seasons under Ed Orgeron.

If they continue their current success for another 5-10 years, I'll change my view of them, of course.

But so far, it's short enough to still be anomalous.

 

[99gator]

.482 for Miss St, according to this site: College Football Research: All-Time Winning Percentages

Okay, so if you go back to the dawn of time (which for American football is the late 1800s), I see your point. But Sewanee and Cumberland and Maryville and even Yale and Army are part of that mix. There is such thing as reaching back TOO far.

So 120 years is too far. 5 years isn't far enough. What's the right stretch to get a realistic feel for how teams might be expected to perform over the next 20-25 years?

I cut if off at the past 20. You might choose a different window of time, say 25, 30, even 40 years if you wish. Not 120, please. But there's plenty of room to have differences of opinion over the time period involved.

Using those more pertinent records, I think you're gonna find that Ole Miss and Miss St have been doormats most of their recent history. Not as weak as Vandy and Kentucky, true, but doormats nonetheless.

Remember, Ole Miss went 2-10 just five years ago. They were 4-8 the year before that. And a few years before that, they had 3-8, 4-8, and 3-9 seasons under Ed Orgeron.

If they continue their current success for another 5-10 years, I'll change my view of them, of course.

But so far, it's short enough to still be anomalous.

I, personnally, always use integration as a point of reference.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I, personnally, always use integration as a point of reference.

It's as good a reference point as any, and probably makes more sense than most. So, say, 1970.

If I get energetic enough in the next few hours, I might add up the wins by program for that time period.

 

[bamawriter]

Yep, historically both are better than Ole Miss, people just have short memories around here. :good!:

See, actually that's not how it works. To say that USCe and Mizzou are historically better than Ole Miss would require a short memory.

All-time winning percentages:

Ole Miss - .563
Mizzou - .550
USCe - .511

Even in terms of historic competitiveness within their respective conferences, all three won their most recent conference titles in the '60s.

 

[99gator]

Since 1970....wins (46 seasons)

South Carolina 281
Ole miss 278
Mizzou 268
Miss state 241
Kentucky 215
Vandy 171

Arkansas and Texas A&M are in the top 25 nationally in wins since 1970.....along with auburn, LSU, and Bama.

After the big 3 in the East....SC ranks at 51

 

[bamawriter]

It's as good a reference point as any, and probably makes more sense than most. So, say, 1970.

If I get energetic enough in the next few hours, I might add up the wins by program for that time period.

Since 1970:

USCe - .5288
Ole Miss - .5234
Mizzou- .5009

South Carolina's number is almost entirely a recent thing.

1970 until Spurrier - .5000
Spurrier Era - .6170

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Here's the whole SEC, by # Wins*, since 1970:

1. Bama - 430
2. Georgia - 390
3. Florida - 383
4. Vols - 371
5. Auburn - 370
6. LSU - 360
7. A&M - 345
8. Arky - 333
9. USCe - 280
10. Ole Miss - 278
11. Mizzou - 267
12. Miss St - 259
13. Kentucky - 215
14. Vandy - 171

Ole Miss and Miss State are two of the bottom five. Two of the bottom four if you don't include recent arrival, Mizzou (yes, you're right, Mizzou is down there, too).

They are doormats, just not quite as bad as Kentucky and Vandy.


* Straight Wins, not adding .5 W for a tie. Includes wins that are officially vacated for cheating; without those, Bama's # of wins would be significantly smaller, hehe. It's true.

 

[bamawriter]

Here's the whole SEC, by # Wins, since 1970:


Ole Miss and Miss State are two of the bottom five. Two of the bottom four if you don't include recent arrival, Mizzou.

They are doormats, just not quite as bad as Kentucky and Vandy.

Again, almost all of USCe's "success" came from '05 to the present. Unless Muschamp is another Spurrier (what say you, Florida fans?), then USCe is more likely to look like the team from '70-'05.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Again, almost all of USCe's "success" came from '05 to the present. Unless Muschamp is another Spurrier (what say you, Florida fans?), then USCe is more likely to look like the team from '70-'05.

Not true at all. I'm no gamecocks fan, but they had 9 wins in '01 ... 8 in '00 ... 8 wins in both '88 and '87 ... 10 wins in '84, another pair of 8-win seasons in '79 and '80. They go hot and cold, yes, but at least there's heat from time to time.

Just because they don't pull off a streak of five 10-win seasons in a row, that doesn't mean they aren't having success some years.

Ole Miss, on the other hand, you can go a decade and a half, from '72 to '85, and not find a single season with more than six wins. You won't find a long down period like that for USCe, hot-and-cold as they may be.