Florida streak (split)

#476
#476
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Goodness gracious some of you just don't even want to listen.

When have I ever said elite recruiting is SUFFICIENT to winning championships?

All I've ever said is it's NECESSARY.

Sufficient vs Necessary. Read up on what they mean.

Having top recruiting classes doesn't guarantee you'll win championships. However, if you wanna win championships you better recruit at an elite level cause only teams with elite talent win big.
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No, but you come across on this board that it's THE ONLY thing that matters between the Florida-Tennessee rivalry, but completely discount all the other intangibles that come along with the history of it. You cannot have it both ways. I'm simply trying to highlight a fallacy in your argument.
 
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#477
#477
VOL 4 Life 83 said:
That team was historically bad. If I remember correctly we were a horrible spot away from going bowling. we should have beaten Florida that year, just like the last two years.
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The UF you faced was completely different team vs the one which finished the season going 1-7. UF lost 13 players in 2 deep to season ending injuries (6 starters including 2 OL, star DT and Driskel; who was coming off a 11 win season).


The next year that team had the most players drafted in SEC and another 4 signed as UDFA.


Perspective... UF was still more talented at just about every position.
 
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#478
#478
HialeahGator said:
That UF you faced was completely different than the one who finished the season going 1-7 to finish season. UF lost 13 players in 2 deep to season ending injuries (6 starters including 2 OL, star DO and Driskel; who was coming off a 11 win season).


The next year that team had the most players drafted and another 4 signed as UDFA.


Perspective.
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Yeah I tried explaining that. But we have folks here who don't care about facts. They would prefer to believe supernatural forces are at work when Florida and Tennessee play.
 
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#481
#481
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
???

No. I said he didn't count toward Florida's 7 players drafted in 2016. Even if he sucked at Florida, he was still surrounded by 15 players who got drafted in 2015 and 2016.

You can point to any single player on Florida's roster and say he sucked. Treon Harris this year was terrible. But that still doesn't change the fact he was surrounded by alot of really good defensive players. Alot like Driskel. And it's those future NFL studs littering Florida's roster that have beaten us.
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I'm addressing your larger point that we can't beat Florida because they have "NFL draft picks" and we don't. In other words, because those players have been drafted, they're better than the players that we run out there to oppose them.....yet, Jeff Driskel was just drafted and he was the worst player on either team during our 2014 10-9 loss to the Gators in 2014. You see the dilemma/hypocrisy there?

And no, the last 11 losses to Florida cannot be explained solely by recruiting classes....over the course of that time, the overall totality of the rankings between our two programs were too close, that's already been researched and demonstrated. Even our resident recruiting/talent statistician Daj says talent only accounts for wins 70% of the time according to his model. So, even if they did have the more talented team every single year, shouldn't we have won say just 3 of those games? Just a bad 3-8 vs Florida rather than the historically putrid 0-11?

And if it's only about talent like you constantly assert, then how the hell did we lose to Vanderbilt twice on the last 10 years? At no point can you look at the collective classes over a 3-4-5 year period and make any case whatsoever that Vandy, at any point in time, had AS MUCH talent as Tennessee, much less more, yet we surely lost twice to those scrubs.
 
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#482
#482
jakez4ut said:
that's kind of hte point. this futility against the Gators goes back 25 years (since 1990 when they've been on the schedule annually). going further back than that is kind of point less cause we didn't play them very often prior to the SPurrier years.

5-20 over that time span, and i can tell you that for the better part of the 90's we did out recruit them, we definitely put more players in the NFL, and we still managed to go on a 6 game losing streak to them.

and i can say with 100% certainty that the reason was our program's "play not to lose" mentality vs. their program's "we're gonna kick your azz, and then tell you about it" mentality.

and it's carried over for the entirety of the Fulmer years, in to what is now knows as the dark days of Kiffin/Dooley, where mentality was trumped by coaching turmoil and lack of talent.

well, now we're back to (the last 2-3 years anyway) to what seems to be a close gap in talent, and yet we've still managed to continue the streak AT LEAST 2 years too many.

i've said it before, and as someone that's seen each of those 25 games, our program has to get over the hump mentally. that's not a reflection of the current players or coaches, every coach that's been here in the last 25 years has been a part of this "streak", and the current 11 game streak. so for it to change, there has to be a group led by people that can get over it. i do think this group is the group that can lay that foundation and have it carry over to the next group and so on.

that's a culture issue, and i think the culture, is and has been heading in the right direction from a 'winning program' standpoint.

and it's set up for this year to be the year that we hit the reset button and start over.
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I've never been convinced that it is all luck, fate, karma, magic, unequal talent, or some mental hump. The game is played in September - not long into the season, and I still think that conditioning plays a bigger part than gets credit. Both teams practice in hot humid conditions, but those conditions in FL are worse than in Knoxville. You may have equal talent and train and condition with the same rigor, but when you factor in the extra heat and humidity, there is a difference. That difference can show itself especially before it begins turning colder when players have been going full bore for three quarters or so.

You may think you are conditioned by working outside, but there is a difference when it really gets hot. Work in those really hot conditions and you can acclimate. There are plenty of stories about the old NASCAR days when drivers would drive around in the summer with the heat on, so they had the heat endurance to last a 500 mile race.
 
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#483
#483
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Goodness gracious some of you just don't even want to listen.

When have I ever said elite recruiting is SUFFICIENT to winning championships?

All I've ever said is it's NECESSARY.

Sufficient vs Necessary. Read up on what they mean.

Having top recruiting classes doesn't guarantee you'll win championships. However, if you wanna win championships you better recruit at an elite level cause only teams with elite talent win big.
Click to expand...

hi, Pot, have you met kettle?
 
#484
#484
AM64 said:
I've never been convinced that it is all luck, fate, karma, magic, unequal talent, or some mental hump. The game is played in September - not long into the season, and I still think that conditioning plays a bigger part than gets credit. Both teams practice in hot humid conditions, but those conditions in FL are worse than in Knoxville. You may have equal talent and train and condition with the same rigor, but when you factor in the extra heat and humidity, there is a difference. That difference can show itself especially before it begins turning colder when players have been going full bore for three quarters or so.

You may think you are conditioned by working outside, but there is a difference when it really gets hot. Work in those really hot conditions and you can acclimate. There are plenty of stories about the old NASCAR days when drivers would drive around in the summer with the heat on, so they had the heat endurance to last a 500 mile race.
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i've always hated playing FL as the 1st SEC game. w/out trying to get in to some sort of dissertation on our schedule....i think our front loaded schedule has always been an obstacle...for having good seasons, heisman campaigns etc....after mid october, our season, for all intents and purposes is basically over...after the Bama game there just aren't that many big games left. no big rivalry games, except the occasional USCe team that's ranked in the top 15, there's not much meat on that bone.

1997, the day Charles Woodson lit up Ohio St on national TV and essentially won the Heisman, Peyton Manning lit up Kentucky for like 530 yards, 5 TDs or something stupid. and it was the Jefferson Piolot regional game of the week.

what if we played Florida in November?

our 5-20 record against htem speaks for itself, which also means that 20 of hte last 25 years, we're in 2nd place before the SEC season even started. relegated to playing catch up and hoping FL loses from week 2 or 3 on........

anyway....i really wish our schedule would get some more tweaking...and not just b/c of the Florida game, but it does play a large part in it.
 
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#485
#485
jakez4ut said:
i've always hated playing FL as the 1st SEC game. w/out trying to get in to some sort of dissertation on our schedule....i think our front loaded schedule has always been an obstacle...for having good seasons, heisman campaigns etc....after mid october, our season, for all intents and purposes is basically over...after the Bama game there just aren't that many big games left. no big rivalry games, except the occasional USCe team that's ranked in the top 15, there's not much meat on that bone.

1997, the day Charles Woodson lit up Ohio St on national TV and essentially won the Heisman, Peyton Manning lit up Kentucky for like 530 yards, 5 TDs or something stupid. and it was the Jefferson Piolot regional game of the week.

what if we played Florida in November?

our 5-20 record against htem speaks for itself, which also means that 20 of hte last 25 years, we're in 2nd place before the SEC season even started. relegated to playing catch up and hoping FL loses from week 2 or 3 on........

anyway....i really wish our schedule would get some more tweaking...and not just b/c of the Florida game, but it does play a large part in it.
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In 2001 the game was moved to December (9/11 attacks) we were #5 and FL was #2 when we played. We won 34-32 at FL and then played in the SEC championship game the next week. Maybe not much as far as statistical meaning goes, but I'll use it as an argument for moving FL to later anyway. I'm with you on balancing the schedule.
 
#486
#486
AM64 said:
In 2001 the game was moved to December (9/11 attacks) we were #5 and FL was #2 when we played. We won 34-32 at FL and then played in the SEC championship game the next week. Maybe not much as far as statistical meaning goes, but I'll use it as an argument for moving FL to later anyway. I'm with you on balancing the schedule.
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that was an epic game
 
#487
#487
jakez4ut said:
i've always hated playing FL as the 1st SEC game. w/out trying to get in to some sort of dissertation on our schedule....i think our front loaded schedule has always been an obstacle...for having good seasons, heisman campaigns etc....after mid october, our season, for all intents and purposes is basically over...after the Bama game there just aren't that many big games left. no big rivalry games, except the occasional USCe team that's ranked in the top 15, there's not much meat on that bone.

1997, the day Charles Woodson lit up Ohio St on national TV and essentially won the Heisman, Peyton Manning lit up Kentucky for like 530 yards, 5 TDs or something stupid. and it was the Jefferson Piolot regional game of the week.

what if we played Florida in November?

our 5-20 record against htem speaks for itself, which also means that 20 of hte last 25 years, we're in 2nd place before the SEC season even started. relegated to playing catch up and hoping FL loses from week 2 or 3 on........

anyway....i really wish our schedule would get some more tweaking...and not just b/c of the Florida game, but it does play a large part in it.
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Good luck getting UF to tweak our schedule, it's about as perfectly balanced as it can be.

UT in September
LSU/UGA in October
FSU in November

Every 5-6 years we play Miami in September.

No need to change a thing on our end.
 
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#490
#490
Lawrence Wright said:
Good luck getting UF to tweak our schedule, it's about as perfectly balanced as it can be.

UT in September
LSU/UGA in October
FSU in November

Every 5-6 years we play Miami in September.

No need to change a thing on our end.
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Heard Fulmer discuss on the radio last year. Said he approached UF several times about moving the game toward the backend of UTs schedule. Said just what you said, specifically that the annual rivalry FSU game stood in the way of UF being willing to make a change. I personally don't buy the whole "we're at a disadvantage playing Florida so early every year" argument but I know the topic pops up on VN pretty regularly.
 
#491
#491
KBVol said:
Heard Fulmer discuss on the radio last year. Said he approached UF several times about moving the game toward the backend of UTs schedule. Said just what you said, specifically that the annual rivalry FSU game stood in the way of UF being willing to make a change. I personally don't buy the whole "we're at a disadvantage playing Florida so early every year" argument but I know the topic pops up on VN pretty regularly.
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Outside of Michigan-Michigan State, just about every in-state rivalry game worth a damn is played at the end of the season (UF-FSU, Bama-AU, Clemson-SCarolina, UGA-GTech, USC-UCLA etc).

Your in-state rival is Vandy, ours is FSU.

Them's the breaks I guess.
 
#492
#492
Lawrence Wright said:
Outside of Michigan-Michigan State, just about every in-state rivalry game worth a damn is played at the end of the season (UF-FSU, Bama-AU, Clemson-SCarolina, UGA-GTech, USC-UCLA etc).

Your in-state rival is Vandy, ours is FSU.

Them's the breaks I guess.
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So in other words, Tennessee doesn't have an in-state rival.
 
#494
#494
How can the 15 players drafted vs 0 drafted argument be credible?

Last I checked, NFL GMs are dumb for not being able to see eye to eye with D4H's talent observation skills.
 
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#495
#495
Lawrence Wright said:
Good luck getting UF to tweak our schedule, it's about as perfectly balanced as it can be.

UT in September
LSU/UGA in October
FSU in November

Every 5-6 years we play Miami in September.

No need to change a thing on our end.
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yeah, i know. UGA wouldn't switch either with it's tilts against you guys, Tech and and Auburn late in the season.

there's little doubt in my mind that it won't change.

but on our end, i'd be lying if i didn't say i think it needs tweaked.
 
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#496
#496
jakez4ut said:
yeah, i know. UGA wouldn't switch either with it's tilts against you guys, Tech and and Auburn late in the season.

there's little doubt in my mind that it won't change.

but on our end, i'd be lying if i didn't say i think it needs tweaked.
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The one bright side about a frontloaded schedule - you can better recover from an early season loss. Just ask OH St.
 
#498
#498
KBVol said:
I'm addressing your larger point that we can't beat Florida because they have "NFL draft picks" and we don't. In other words, because those players have been drafted, they're better than the players that we run out there to oppose them.....yet, Jeff Driskel was just drafted and he was the worst player on either team during our 2014 10-9 loss to the Gators in 2014. You see the dilemma/hypocrisy there?

And no, the last 11 losses to Florida cannot be explained solely by recruiting classes....over the course of that time, the overall totality of the rankings between our two programs were too close, that's already been researched and demonstrated. Even our resident recruiting/talent statistician Daj says talent only accounts for wins 70% of the time according to his model. So, even if they did have the more talented team every single year, shouldn't we have won say just 3 of those games? Just a bad 3-8 vs Florida rather than the historically putrid 0-11?

And if it's only about talent like you constantly assert, then how the hell did we lose to Vanderbilt twice on the last 10 years? At no point can you look at the collective classes over a 3-4-5 year period and make any case whatsoever that Vandy, at any point in time, had AS MUCH talent as Tennessee, much less more, yet we surely lost twice to those scrubs.
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That's not what that statistic means. It can be used this way. Say I gave you a list of every game for a given week and gave you their avg recruiting ranking over the past 4 years. Using that and picking all games based off the higher recruiting ranking you would pick around 70% correct. You can start increasing that % if you know the correct factors to also include, but Vegas bookies keep that info pretty guarded.
 
#499
#499
08Vol said:
That's not what that statistic means. It can be used this way. Say I gave you a list of every game for a given week and gave you their avg recruiting ranking over the past 4 years. Using that and picking all games based off the higher recruiting ranking you would pick around 70% correct. You can start increasing that % if you know the correct factors to also include, but Vegas bookies keep that info pretty guarded.
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Daj has said that superior talent predicts who wins any given game 70% of the time. That's all I was trying to convey.
 
#500
#500
KBVol said:
Daj has said that superior talent predicts who wins any given game 70% of the time. That's all I was trying to convey.
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Ok that's true. Honestly I think the sad truth is the few times we've had the better talent we fell in that 30%. Things will change this year, I can feel it
 
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