Florida streak (split)

[jakez4ut]

But that's the point.

Even if Florida hasn't been good, we haven't either. We've lost to Kentucky and Vanderbilt in the last 5 seasons. That never happened before.

Even if Florida is no longer Florida, we're in no position to expect to beat ANYONE.

like i said, both can be true. it's not JUST that TN was terrible, it's also that TN was terrible at the same time FL was awful as well. but that's not been the case for the whole 25 year span. 2008-2012. RIP.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

that's kind of hte point. this futility against the Gators goes back 25 years (since 1990 when they've been on the schedule annually). going further back than that is kind of point less cause we didn't play them very often prior to the SPurrier years.

5-20 over that time span, and i can tell you that for the better part of the 90's we did out recruit them, we definitely put more players in the NFL, and we still managed to go on a 6 game losing streak to them.

and i can say with 100% certainty that the reason was our program's "play not to lose" mentality vs. their program's "we're gonna kick your azz, and then tell you about it" mentality.

and it's carried over for the entirety of the Fulmer years, in to what is now knows as the dark days of Kiffin/Dooley, where mentality was trumped by coaching turmoil and lack of talent.

well, now we're back to (the last 2-3 years anyway) to what seems to be a close gap in talent, and yet we've still managed to continue the streak AT LEAST 2 years too many.

i've said it before, and as someone that's seen each of those 25 games, our program has to get over the hump mentally. that's not a reflection of the current players or coaches, every coach that's been here in the last 25 years has been a part of this "streak", and the current 11 game streak. so for it to change, there has to be a group led by people that can get over it. i do think this group is the group that can lay that foundation and have it carry over to the next group and so on.

that's a culture issue, and i think the culture, is and has been heading in the right direction from a 'winning program' standpoint.

and it's set up for this year to be the year that we hit the reset button and start over.

I highly doubt anything that happened in the 90s had an affect on us losing last year.

You guys can embrace this fatalist prophecy all you want.

I go by simple math.

15 NFL players >>> 0 NFL players

Its a lot easier explanation than 30 years of alchemy and supernatural forces.

 

[VOL 4 Life 83]

The way I saw it they've out recruited us 7 or 8 of the last 10 years. With 2014 and 2015 being the only years we finished ahead of them.

You're the one creating this "hands down" qualification. You might not think having the #1 class vs the #9 class is "hands down" better. Well I do.

Actually you are the one who stated that to win a national title you need to recruit top 5/10 recruiting classes did you not? So by you're measuring stick, we should have been competitive.

And I'll say it again. South Carolina has beaten Florida 4 out of 5 years, and not only has Florida out recruited them, so have we. So tell me more about how recruiting rankings are the end-all-be-all in your fantasy world.

 

[jakez4ut]

I highly doubt anything that happened in the 90s had an affect on us losing last year.

You guys can embrace this fatalist prophecy all you want.

I go by simple math.

15 NFL players >>> 0 NFL players

Its a lot easier explanation than 30 years of alchemy and supernatural forces.

there's nothing supernatural there, and i didn't say the 90's affected last year's game, everything i posted is 100% true. again, what would you know about it anyway?

a) you already said prior to 2014 you didn't care.
b) you weren't around for the 90's.

your perspective is a whole lot different than mine, that doesn't make mine any less true. it does however make you closed off and obstinate in your assertions that only make sense for your specific line of thought.

which is fine...for you.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

like i said, both can be true. it's not JUST that TN was terrible, it's also that TN was terrible at the same time FL was awful as well. but that's not been the case for the whole 25 year span. 2008-2012. RIP.

You guys keep acting like it's a 25 year losing streak.

If you exclude the last 10 years of this 30 year malaise, the record is 6-14. Bad record no doubt. But not some mystical witchcraft type streak.

Maybe it's because my earliest football memories are wins over Florida that I don't buy yalls fatalism. I remember trading wins with Florida in the early 2000s when we were both national powers.

I remember when we went to the Swamp in December 2001 to knock off Rex Grossman and the #2 Florida Gators.

My earliest football memories are beating Florida at their best. So excuse me for not believing in stupid curses.

 

[VOL 4 Life 83]

You guys keep acting like it's a 25 year losing streak.

If you exclude the last 10 years of this 30 year malaise, the record is 6-14. Bad record no doubt. But not some mystical witchcraft type streak.

Maybe it's because my earliest memories are wins over Florida that I don't buy yalls fatalism. I remember trading wins with Florida in the early 2000s. I remember when we went to the Swamp in December 2001 to knock off Rex Grossman and the #2 Florida Gators.

My earliest football memories are beating Florida at their best. So excuse me for not believing in stupid curses.

No one is blaming some dumb curse. This isn't the Chicago Cubs we are talking about here. But we are recognizing that there IS MORE TO IT than meets the eye, and recruiting rankings and draft picks don't tell the whole story.

Mental breakdowns/playing not to lose does not = witchcraft. Not sure where you're getting that from.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Actually you are the one who stated that to win a national title you need to recruit top 5/10 recruiting classes did you not? So by you're measuring stick, we should have been competitive.

And I'll say it again. South Carolina has beaten Florida 4 out of 5 years, and not only has Florida out recruited them, so have we. So tell me more about how recruiting rankings are the end-all-be-all in your fantasy world.

And?

If I remember correctly, Tennessee lost to Vanderbilt TWICE and Kentucky ONCE during that stretch.

How many times did South Carolina lose to Kentucky and Vanderbilt at that time?

I'll keep saying this. You can't throw rocks of you live in a glass house. Since 2005, Tennessee has been in no position to expect to beat ANYONE. We struggled with Arkansas St. two years ago. ARKANSAS ST.

Just accept that this program was terrible. Even worse than some bad Florida teams.

 

[jakez4ut]

You guys keep acting like it's a 25 year losing streak.

If you exclude the last 10 years, it's 6-14. Bad record no doubt. But not some mystical witchcraft type streak.

Maybe it's because my earliest memories are wins over Florida that I don't buy yalls fatalism. I remember trading wins with Florida in the early 2000s. I remember when we went to the Swamp in December 2001 to knock off Rex Grossman and the #2 Florida Gators.

My earliest football memories are beating Florida at their best. So excuse me for not believing in stupid curses.

quit putting words in my mouth. you haven't seen a post from me saying "curse" "jynx" "voodoo hex" or anything else.

my contention is very simple....what has defined our program has been our inability to beat fL with any sense of regularity so that we continue to be relevant past Oct 1. and a primary reason for that is the mentality associated with each of the programs during that time span.

and during that time span, the vast majority of those 25 years was with CPF at the helm, and if you don't think the "play not to lose" or "we do what we do" mentality didn't come in to play, then you simply have ignored it or just didn't pay attention.

so on the cusp of Fulmer leaving, enter Lane Kiffin debacle. on the heels of that, enter Dooley debacle.

so you have 17 years of Fulmer and "aw shucks" vs. "you can't spell cirtus w/out UT" followed directly by one of the worst era's of TN football.

your world view simply isn't large enough to hang with me. and if you don't think that programs are defined by these games, and the records in them, then you are naive. if you don't believe that, ask yourself how you feel about Vandy or KY? that's how FL feels about us.

that all said, i do think as i've said time and time again, that CBJ and this group he's recruited are the type of players and teams we've needed to "redefine" our program. and i think we have an excellent shot at doing that this year.

but it still actually has to happen. you can't wish it away or hope it away. and you can't just say "it doesn't exist" and that be that.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

No one is blaming some dumb curse. This isn't the Chicago Cubs we are talking about here. But we are recognizing that there IS MORE TO IT than meets the eye, and recruiting rankings and draft picks don't tell the whole story.

Mental breakdowns/playing not to lose does not = witchcraft. Not sure where you're getting that from.

Not to me. The last time Tennessee was an elite program, they traded wins with Florida in the early 2000s.

Once Tennessee became a below average program they proceeded to get owned by Florida for 10 years.

Now most believe Tennessee is an elite program once again. If we can't start beating Florida now that we're outrecruiting them, then your theory that there is a mental hurdle will actually have merit.

As of right now, none of those theories have merit because the talent on the field hasn't been close to even let alone a Tennessee advantage.

 

[VOL 4 Life 83]

And?

If I remember correctly, Tennessee lost to Vanderbilt TWICE and Kentucky ONCE during that stretch.

How many times did South Carolina lose to Kentucky and Vanderbilt at that time?

I'll keep saying this. You can't throw rocks of you live in a glass house. Since 2005, Tennessee has been in no position to expect to beat ANYONE. We struggled with Arkansas St. two years ago. ARKANSAS ST.

Just accept that this program was terrible. Even worse than some bad Florida teams.

Geez you're hard-headed.

I've never stated that we weren't a bad team. But it's not like we didn't have talent enough to win some games. Teams find a way to win games, we just can't seem to be find a way to beat Florida, plain and simple

 

[jakez4ut]

news flash: TN FL games didn't start in 2000.

 

[VOL 4 Life 83]

Not to me. The last time Tennessee was an elite program, they traded wins with Florida in the early 2000s.

Once Tennessee became a below average program they proceeded to get owned by Florida for 10 years.

Now most believe Tennessee is an elite program once again. If we can't start beating Florida now that we're outrecruiting them, then your theory that there is a mental hurdle will actually have merit.

As of right now, none of those theories have merit because the talent on the field hasn't been close to even let alone a Tennessee advantage.

Not to me? But you're not the majority on here that has witnessed the struggle to beat them for 30+ years on a consistent basis. You're basing your entire approach to this argument from the last few years, completely discounting the entire rivalry. So, you're being naive. A "true fan" considers the entirety of the series, dating back to pre Brent Schaeffer days

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

if you don't believe that, ask yourself how you feel about Vandy or KY? that's how FL feels about us.

that all said, i do think as i've said time and time again, that CBJ and this group he's recruited are the type of players and teams we've needed to "redefine" our program. and i think we have an excellent shot at doing that this year.

but it still actually has to happen. you can't wish it away or hope it away. and you can't just say "it doesn't exist" and that be that.

Well I agree with the Florida fans. Since 2005 Tennessee's program has been closer to Kentucky and Vanderbilt than Florida.

Its the reason I'm not that surprised we've lost 11 straight. Its the same reason I stopped following the team closely. You see because I don't have as close an attachment to the program as you, I'm able to see things more clearly.

I never expected Tennessee to beat Florida till last year. I'm not the one hoping and wishing. You are. I'm simply following the numbers 5 and 5.

Back to back top 5 recruiting classes are what redefine a program. Nothing else.

So be happy. When the 2016 Vols take the field, we'll no longer be Vanderbilt and Kentucky status vis-a-vis Florida.

 

[bamawriter]

If you exclude the last 10 years of this 30 year malaise, the record is 6-14. Bad record no doubt.

And if you exclude the last 108 years of baseball, the Chicago Cubs are back-to-back World Series champions.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

And if you exclude the last 108 years of baseball, the Chicago Cubs are back-to-back World Series champions.

As a Bama fan you should know about losing streaks. 2-10 vs Tennessee from 1995-2006.

Oh how on earth did Nick Saban turn that around? Did he have to make sacrifices to the gods? Did he have to hold his players hands to get them start believing they can beat Tennessee?

Or did he simply start recruiting better players? Then proceeded to kick our butts the next 9 years.

Streaks happen when you are inferior to your opponent in talent. Not because of mental weakness or magic. Sports is a talent industry plain and simple.

 

[VOL 4 Life 83]

Well I agree with the Florida fans. Since 2005 Tennessee's program has been closer to Kentucky and Vanderbilt than Florida.

Its the reason I'm not that surprised we've lost 11 straight. Its the same reason I stopped following the team closely. You see because I don't have as close an attachment to the program as you, I'm able to see things more clearly.

I never expected Tennessee to beat Florida till last year. I'm not the one hoping and wishing. You are. I'm simply following the numbers 5 and 5.

Back to back top 5 recruiting classes are what redefine a program. Nothing else.

So be happy. When the 2016 Vols take the field, we'll no longer be Vanderbilt and Kentucky status vis-a-vis Florida.

"Back to back top 5 recruiting classes are what redefine a program. Nothing else." Can you even hear yourself speak D4H?

Jones came in and totally changed the culture. Was it partly recruiting that has changed the trajectory? Well, yes. But you can't leave out everything else that Jones has done...

Highest APR in God knows how long. How about re-establishing sour relationships with local high school football programs. Integrating prior players Into the culture of the program. Earning the black stripe. Bolstering the VFL program. Making the right hires to compete for a conference/NC.

But all those things don't matter do they

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

news flash: TN FL games didn't start in 2000.

News flash: not everyone here is old

I try not to talk about teams and players I never saw play.

 

[VOL 4 Life 83]

News flash: not everyone here is old

I try not to talk about teams and players I never saw play.

Then don't talk at all. Everyone will be much happier.

And just for the record, I'm 33 years old, yet somehow I've done my homework and know the tradition and history of our program. I don't follow UT because they're some hot commodity or fad.

 

[jakez4ut]

Well I agree with the Florida fans. Since 2005 Tennessee's program has been closer to Kentucky and Vanderbilt than Florida.

Its the reason I'm not that surprised we've lost 11 straight. Its the same reason I stopped following the team closely. You see because I don't have as close an attachment to the program as you, I'm able to see things more clearly.

I never expected Tennessee to beat Florida till last year. I'm not the one hoping and wishing. You are. I'm simply following the numbers 5 and 5.

Back to back top 5 recruiting classes are what redefine a program. Nothing else.

So be happy. When the 2016 Vols take the field, we'll no longer be Vanderbilt and Kentucky status vis-a-vis Florida.

this is not what's in dispute. i agree with you on this. we've not been a good program, especially 2008-2012.

that's not debatable, in my book.

but try to stay on point here. you assert that since you either a) didn't care prior to 2014 or b)weren't around for the 90's, that some how, magically, that history doesn't matter to the overall series or how these programs are viewed/defined by the college football world, media and respective fan bases.

and my assertion is that is 100% false. the base word of ignorance is "ignore", which is what you've done, self admitted, apparently to 2005 thru 2014, and anything prior to 2000, also self admitted.

so, if you want to pick and choose the history and stats you want to pay attention to, then you are 100% right.

but if you actually take in to account all of it, you simply couldn't be more wrong.

and i think that best sums up how this little debate has gone.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

"Back to back top 5 recruiting classes are what redefine a program. Nothing else." Can you even hear yourself speak D4H?

Jones came in and totally changed the culture. Was it partly recruiting that has changed the trajectory? Well, yes. But you can't leave out everything else that Jones has done...

Highest APR in God knows how long. How about re-establishing sour relationships with local high school football programs. Integrating prior players Into the culture of the program. Earning the black stripe. Bolstering the VFL program. Making the right hires to compete for a conference/NC.

But all those things don't matter do they

All that is nice. But without the Jimmys and the Joes it's irrelevant. Programs only turn around when you bring in great players.

Saban may have done a lot of great cultural changes at Bama. But the main difference between his regime and those that came before is RECRUITING. He brought in grade A talent and they've turned a program on the ropes into the most dominant in college football history.

 

[jakez4ut]

News flash: not everyone here is old

I try not to talk about teams and players I never saw play.

so trust your elders that actually did, and didn't take a decade off from being a fan because it was "hopeless"..:thumbsup:

 

[jakez4ut]

As a Bama fan you should know about losing streaks. 2-10 vs Tennessee from 1995-2006.

Oh how on earth did Nick Saban turn that around? Did he have to make sacrifices to the gods? Did he have to hold his players hands to get them start believing they can beat Tennessee?

Or did he simply start recruiting better players? Then proceeded to kick our butts the next 9 years.

Streaks happen when you are inferior to your opponent in talent. Not because of mental weakness or magic. Sports is a talent industry plain and simple.

you don't know the 90's, therefore they didn't happen. :blink:

 

[bamawriter]

Oh how on earth did Nick Saban turn that around? Did he have to make sacrifices to the gods? Did he have to hold his players hands to get them start believing they can beat Tennessee?

Or did he simply start recruiting better players? Then proceeded to kick our butts the next 9 years.

Tennessee absolutely, unarguably had more talent on the field in 2007. Not only had Fulmer recruited better than Shula, Saban had to suspend 2 starters and 3 role players the night before the game. And yet Bama still wrecked Tennessee.

Talent matters. No doubt. But Saban had a better gameplan than Fulmer, and it yielded results.

 

[VOL 4 Life 83]

All that is nice. But without the Jimmys and the Joes it's irrelevant. Programs only turn around when you bring in great players.

Saban may have done a lot of great cultural changes at Bama. But the main difference between his regime and those that came before is RECRUITING. He brought in grade A talent and they've turned a program on the ropes into the most dominant in college football history.

It's already been proven that top recruiting doesn't equal national championships. LSU, Notre Dame, and Auburn say hi. It's ALL the other stuff that comes along with it. You can have all the talent in the world, but unless you coach em up, you ain't gonna win jack squat. Saban may be a great recruiter, but he's also a great coach.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

It's already been proven that top recruiting doesn't equal national championships. LSU, Notre Dame, and Auburn say hi. It's ALL the other stuff that comes along with it. You can have all the talent in the world, but unless you coach em up, you ain't gonna win jack squat.

Goodness gracious some of you just don't even want to listen.

When have I ever said elite recruiting is SUFFICIENT to winning championships?

All I've ever said is it's NECESSARY.

Sufficient vs Necessary. Read up on what they mean.

Having top recruiting classes doesn't guarantee you'll win championships. However, if you wanna win championships you better recruit at an elite level cause only teams with elite talent win big.